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Old 12/20/10, 1:58 AM   #31
phete
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Death Knight
 
<Ice>
Executus (EU)
Originally Posted by Tyhma View Post
Hi everyone,

I noticed that i was reaching my expertise cap with only 790 expertise rating. Is this something that anyone else noticed?

It could come from the fact that i'm playing a gnome character, but i'm wearing a sword in my OH, and i'm seeing 29 expertise for this hand, while 26 with my MH (using a mace).
By looking at this thread one can see that at 85 the exp rating needed per 1exp is 30.0272, which means the soft cap is 780.7072 rating or roughly 781 rating

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Old 12/20/10, 2:48 AM   #32
Tyhma
Glass Joe
 
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Gnome Death Knight
 
Confrerie du Thorium (EU)
Originally Posted by phete View Post
By looking at this thread one can see that at 85 the exp rating needed per 1exp is 30.0272, which means the soft cap is 780.7072 rating or roughly 781 rating
This confirm that the value of 885 rating indicate in the thread we're talking in is actually wrong, witch was disturbing me.

Thanx for the info, and for the link.

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Old 12/20/10, 2:56 AM   #33
phete
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Death Knight
 
<Ice>
Executus (EU)
Originally Posted by Tyhma View Post
This confirm that the value of 885 rating indicate in the thread we're talking in is actually wrong, witch was disturbing me.

Thanx for the info, and for the link.
Np, at the bottom of the OP it now says 781 atleast

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Old 12/20/10, 3:23 AM   #34
damokt
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Blackhand (EU)
Is Mind Freeze still at spell hit cap? Or is it on melee hit cap but the 3% extra hit from DW Frost don't apply? Because I noticed that it misses sometimes.

My Guild downed/progressed so far on 7 Bosses in the new raiding content in 10-man and I noticed that interrupting is very important on some of the fights. In one Halfus Wyrmbreaker attempt I was assigned to interrupt his Shadow Nova. My Mind Freeze missed 3 times in this fight, which led to a wipe due to healers not keeping up. We then assigned a warrior to do the interrupting and downed him shortly after.

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Old 12/20/10, 4:49 AM   #35
Griefpb
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Boulderfist
Originally Posted by damokt View Post
Is Mind Freeze still at spell hit cap? Or is it on melee hit cap but the 3% extra hit from DW Frost don't apply? Because I noticed that it misses sometimes.

My Guild downed/progressed so far on 7 Bosses in the new raiding content in 10-man and I noticed that interrupting is very important on some of the fights. In one Halfus Wyrmbreaker attempt I was assigned to interrupt his Shadow Nova. My Mind Freeze missed 3 times in this fight, which led to a wipe due to healers not keeping up. We then assigned a warrior to do the interrupting and downed him shortly after.
Yes, Mind Freeze is still on spell hit. Respeccing into Virulence and Endless Winter is basically a necessity on that fight.

Gear depending, you might also have to do some reforging, or eat some hit food.

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Old 12/20/10, 1:42 PM   #36
JMBattista
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Hydraxis
Originally Posted by Nev View Post
That is essentially what I have been doing, but I was just pointing out that the current priority in the post does _not_ say that. If that is what is intended, perhaps the priority should be updated with a clause after the diseases that says something like "If both KM and Rime are procced, Rime."
I could be wrong but I suspect at least part of this is that Consider doen't want a 'priority' list that is a post in itself with lots of conditionals.

I could easily see this turning into:

FS (if mob can be 1 shot) > OB (if mob can be one shot and no rp) > Diseases (if you can safely apply dots) > Ob (if both Frost/Unholy pairs and/or both Death runes are up) > HB-Rime (if both Rime and KM are procced and you can aoe if you aren't gcd capping) > IT-Rime (if both Rime and KM are procced and you can't aoe if you aren't gcd capping) > OB (if KM is procc'd) >
BS if both Blood Runes are up > FS if RP capped > HB-Rime (if you can aoe safely) > IT-Rime (if you can't aoe safely) > Ob > BS > FS > HoW.

Or some other equally ridiculous priority system with 16-20 entries based on highly conditional things that should, at some point, just make sense. The whole comment about Rime being above KM oblit if both are proc'd, ect only holds true when you have the GCDs to cast both spells. If you don't its just like back in wrath... you skip it, since the KM-Oblit performs better when GCD capp'd.

Its just like how he pulled the BiS lists for pre-raid gear, there are far too many 'ifs' to please everyone and each persons opinion on what should and shouldn't be included will be different, just KISS and be sensible when playing.

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Old 12/20/10, 2:52 PM   #37
Theodos
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Sargeras
Rime vs. KM Oblit

Everyone so far has contested the priorities given by Consider by saying you should be using Rime procs in lieu of KM Oblits. If that was the case, it would have been stated in the OP. He mentions that you should never Oblit back-to-back with a Rime proc, but this very situational.

The fact of the matter remains that, at current gear levels, KM Oblit does much, much more damage than any other abilities that can be used in the same GCD. Moreover, with lower levels of mastery, the impact of using a Rime HB is much lower.

There is also a key issue here where wasting a potential Rime proc is still less important than keeping your runes refreshing through using rune-based abilities. With higher Blood Tap uptime granted with talents, the value of Obliterate increases in your rotation. Sitting on death runes during Blood Tap is a potentially large DPS loss as it could prevent you from squeezing in an extra Obliterate during the window BT is up.

I think in the case of KM Oblit vs. Rime, it's entirely situational. If your diseases are about to fall off and Outbreak is down, Rime makes more sense. If you are nearing max RP, KM Oblit followed by FS > HB would be better since it moves your runes along without wasting significant RP. If diseases are at full duration with low RP and only UF runes up, Rime > KM Oblit. There is an endless bevy of situations you could create here.

If I were to create a generalized rotation for DW Frost, you would try to prioritize rune abilities (maximizing death rune uptime) while not capping RP and allowing Rime to bridge any gaps in disease uptime and open GCDs.

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Old 12/21/10, 7:12 PM   #38
Invaishir
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Trollbane
From testing with Kahorie's, I believe it should be noted to use Razorice as 2h before you have 4piece t11 because it is performing better in-game and on the sim than Fallen Crusader without 4piece by about 5%

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Old 12/21/10, 7:34 PM   #39
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
No matter what gear set-up I use and no matter how much tweaking I do, I can't get the sim to show RI as superior, and without any proof on your part, there's no reason for anyone to trust your word, especially when simple napkin math and common sense shows that it's extremely unlikely RI wins:

About 55% of 2H Frost's damage is, well, Frost. Thus RI, at most, gives 5.5% dps (less, in reality, due to the stacking component of it in combination with target switching and what have you). The minor auto-attack damage boost is less than 0.5%, and hardly worth mentioning, but giving the rune as a whole the benefit of the doubt, let's just say it rounds it up to a 6% dps boost.

RotFC's uptime will vary but, for simplicity's sake, let's say it's 66%, meaning it gives approximately 10% strength. In a mix of 346 blues and 359 epics, you're going to have about 4.5k strength unbuffed. Horn of Winter, Mark, food, and flask will bring this up to about 5700. This means RotFC is giving you approximately 570 strength which, at about 2.3 dps per point, equals out to 1311 dps.

Thus, unless you're doing !22k unbuffed single-target dps in that so-so gear, FC wins out pretty clearly and the fact of the matter is that you're not going to be doing even close to that much on a single target as 2H frost at that gear level.

Besides, RI is only just barely above a 5% dps boost in itself... for it to be beating RotFC would mean the latter would have to be completely worthless! Even if RI were coming out ahead of FC, it definitely wouldn't be doing so by that large a margin.

Perhaps in greens or some such nonsense RI is superior, but this isn't the place to discuss such matters, and it's pointless to try to theorycraft at such low and meaningless gear levels.

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Old 12/22/10, 2:29 AM   #40
Invaishir
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Trollbane
I reset all the data and used the "No restrictions" gear set for 2h for these little tests. To not have 4piece i replaced t11.5 legs with [Terrastra's Legguards]. I used the 2h spec in the OP, and i was trying to figure out the best priority while i was cutting gems.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Priority>
<FrostStrikeMaxRp></FrostStrikeMaxRp>
<KMObliterate></KMObliterate>
<KMFrostStrike></KMFrostStrike>
<Rime></Rime>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<Obliterate></Obliterate>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
<FrostStrike></FrostStrike>
<HowlingBlast></HowlingBlast>
<EmpowerRuneWeapon></EmpowerRuneWeapon>
<Horn></Horn>
</Priority>
^ that's what I used, but i used the default frost priority and results were the same. Gonna talk to Afabar and see if he can take a look at FC and RI and see if we can figure it out.

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Old 12/22/10, 3:57 AM   #41
NEloi
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
The Venture Co (EU)
Originally Posted by Invaishir View Post
^ that's what I used, but i used the default frost priority and results were the same. Gonna talk to Afabar and see if he can take a look at FC and RI and see if we can figure it out.
If I was to point my finger at something I would say the sim is bugged, either FC is not being applied at all or our melee strikes aren't getting the benefit of it.

When you change from FC to RI, the only damage that changes is frost damage and that shouldn't be the case, all our strikes/diseases should change, because RI only benefits our frost strikes while FC is good for every thing.

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Old 12/22/10, 5:33 AM   #42
Afabar
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Chants Eternels (EU)
Originally Posted by Invaishir View Post
From testing with Kahorie's, I believe it should be noted to use Razorice as 2h before you have 4piece t11 because it is performing better in-game and on the sim than Fallen Crusader without 4piece by about 5%
It's a sim bug. I just have checked, and Fallen crusader buff only affect ghoul strength. Don't ask me why, I don't have yet investigate.
edit:
I have found the issue and uploaded the correction. The issue was that the sim didn't update the AP value of the character only on pure AP proc and not on Strength proc. This was a recent issue since I did made a change in that part of the code few days ago when I did include the 4 piece T11 proc.

Last edited by Afabar : 12/22/10 at 6:01 AM.


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Old 12/22/10, 9:16 AM   #43
Lindwurm
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Blackmoore (EU)
Regarding Spellhit: I used the sim to check what should be possible with my current gearsetup and noticed a very high EP value of 0.9 for spellhit, wich is even higher than hit to melee cap. I redid the sim with Considers BIS list for dw-Frost and noticed the same high value for spellhit. Is this some kind of bug with the simulator? Seems like shifting points between imp. Bloodtap and Virulence doesn't seem to change anything, as dps and EP-Values stay exactly the same. Yet skipping some hit to crit reforging does result in higher dps.

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Old 12/22/10, 2:56 PM   #44
Tphirey
Order 66 Survivor
 
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Goblin Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
Night Elf
Hands down the worst Alliance race for PvE dps , for Frost DKs or any other class/spec! All Night Elves have going for them is a temporary aggro dump on a two minute cooldown. Even if we had threat issues, which we don’t, this would still be quite horrendous, considering all the threat is returned to us the second you break Shadowmeld. There’s no passive which provides any sort of dps in any sort of scenario. If you’re truly looking to min-max, this is the last race you want as a dps.
I've bolded the section I'm interested in (since as an orc I don't have shadowmeld). Previous to 4.0.1 the Blood talent to reduce threat made threat problems non-existent as dps. However, since then I've been experiencing huge issues with threat, first in normal dungeons and now in heroics (where it can mean death). Is the bolded section above out of date or is there something else I'm missing that still makes threat problems non-existent? If it is out of date (I noticed the unholy thread has the exact same text which doesn't seem to have changed since 3.3), what are other DKs doing to combat the threat issues in heroics, especially in aoe situations where even a single howling blast can pull aggro?

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Old 12/22/10, 3:15 PM   #45
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
It's not outdated, it's simply talking specifically in raids (which, unless specifically noted otherwise, applies to the whole thread; although I understand heroics are, of course, where people are likely spending the majority of their PvE time in at the moment, it's temporary, they're not terribly challenging to begin with, and it's impossible to min-max in them due to all the additional variables - group composition being a huge one. Raids are ultimately what matter, even for the more casual out there). If you're having threat issues in raids, something is up with your tank (or you're accidentally in Blood Presence!). In heroics, however, with Howling Blast being what it is, pulling aggro is a definite possibility (if not a certain reality).

As to how to deal with it, there's not really any tools you have aside from Hungering Cold (which, glyphed, is pretty solid in such situations) or CoI (which is going to kill your dps, but better than killing you). Otherwise, just up to the tank.

Last edited by Consider : 12/22/10 at 3:23 PM.

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