Frost DPS | Cataclysm 4.0.6, This Is My Life - Page 30

thebitterfig · 04/12/11, 7:16 PM

Haste does not effect the GCD for DK.

Rather, haste only decreases the GCD for abilities classified as spells. Healing spells like Riptide or Renew, Damage Spells like Ice Lance or Corruption, etc. By and large, DK abilities are not spells (maybe HB, DC, DnD and a few others, but I'd have to check), and do not have their GCD decreased by Haste. 1.5 seconds is the standard for DK. As a result, the use of UP and it's 1 second GCD for very high-haste situations is advisable.

greatzar · 04/13/11, 6:56 AM

Thanks for clarification about GCD.
Now let's talk about gemming.
Quote from OP

Aside from meeting your meta gem requirements, you only bother to use orange/purple gems if the socket bonus is 20 strength, 30 of any secondary stat, or anything higher than that for one yellow/blue slot, and 30 strength for two.

I think it is partially wrong. 30 of any secondary stat is not enough to compensate for difference between 20 str and 20 secondary stat.

Lets see stat weights from OP:
Str=2.62
Hit=1.22
Exp=0.96
Mastery=0.82

Well, if we look at value of hit, it seem trade of 20 str for 20+30 rating is a good deal:
20 str = 52.4
50 hit = 61
But hit have a cap that is easily reachable through reforging alone. So, in reality, gemming for hit have same value as gemming for the stat that we would reforged to hit otherwise.
And even with second best stat (exp) 20 str is more powerful:
20 str = 52.4
50 exp = 48
Not to mention that exp is easily capped too, we must be comparing with next best stat (haste or mastery).
For mastery, socket bonus must be at least ( (52.4/0.82)-20) = 43.9 to compensate for loss of 20 str. Which is not very realistic socket bonus at the moment.
The conclusion is "if socket bonus is rating, use red gem".

dignacker · 04/13/11, 1:13 PM

Those stat weights are wrong. Run simulationcraft yourself to see stat weights for your gear.

In some situations, it is advisable to gem 20 strength/20 haste for a 20 haste gem bonus due to the huge weight of haste.

These are my weights, for example.

2H Frost ilvl 359
Strength=2.2606
HasteRating=1.3084
CritRating=0.8506
MasteryRating=0.7959

40 haste x 1.3084 = 52.33600 EP
20 strength x 2.606 = 52.12 EP

That is rather nitpicky, though.

xbit · 04/13/11, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by dignacker

Run simulationcraft yourself to see stat weights for your gear.

The latest simc includes error bars for the stat weights, so you will see that haste may not be that high, it could be lower. In addition, in actual raid situations the "real" value of haste will change considerably, whereas strength is much more static. In short, even with a 30 haste socket bonus I would still gem 40 str, and the only socket bonuses that I would be interested in are +20 str or more.

Mhobius · 04/13/11, 9:15 PM

Has anybody here taken in consideration that Improved Blood Tap might be worth now? Consindering how Blade Barrier works with the new Blood of the North (it's triggered by Death Runes on cd, instead of normal Blood Runes), Blood Tap should be a free full recharged Death Rune every 30 sec. It's like two 100% guaranteed Runic Empowerment procs every 1 minute. No more wasted Blood Taps on Death Runes, no more need to wait Blood Runes on cd to use it "optimally" by usually wasting few seconds. This will make Haste less valuable due to GCD capping, but it will increase the value of Crit/Mastery. This theory needs in-depth testing on the PTR, which atm is impossible to do, because the launcher is currently bugged. It wasn't even properly possible before, because as you know, Runes were broken for the most part in the previous PTR builds. I will test it when possible. Feedback is welcome.

Mihauwk · 04/13/11, 9:51 PM

there is no doubt that for 2H best dps stats is
UP hit(8%)>exp(17/26)>haste>mastery>crit

there are numerous opinions for DW stats weight for higher dps
which of the below will result more dps?
If UP the stats weight is obvious but in FP seems unsure

1) FP hit(8%)>exp(26)>mastery>crit>haste
2) FP hit(8%)>exp(26)>mastery>haste>crit
3) FP hit(8%)>exp(26)>haste>mastery>crit
4) UP hit(8%)>exp(26)>haste>mastery>crit

I found the below is quite useful

"Are you hit capped?
•If yes, then reforge any excess hit into expertise if uncapped, if it’s not already on the piece as well and if you’re not already capped for it, and to haste then mastery (2H) or mastery then haste (DW).
•If no, then reforge any excess expertise, crit then mastery (2H) or crit then haste (DW) in that order until you reach the hit cap.
Are you expertise capped?
•If yes, then reforge any excess expertise into haste then mastery (2H) or mastery then haste (DW) in that order .
•If no, then reforge any crit, mastery, then haste (2H) or crit, haste, then mastery (DW) in that order until you reach the expertise cap.

[DW] Does the piece already have mastery?
•If yes, then go to the next question.
•If no, then reforge any crit then haste into mastery.
[DW] Does the piece already have haste?
•If yes, and it also has hit, expertise, or mastery (as it should following the previous questions) then there’s no need to touch it.
•If no, and it already has hit, expertise, or mastery (as it should following the previous questions), then reforge the crit into haste."

Ibracadabra · 04/14/11, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Mihauwk

If UP the stats weight is obvious but in FP seems unsure

1) FP hit(8%)>exp(26)>mastery>crit>haste
2) FP hit(8%)>exp(26)>mastery>haste>crit
2) FP hit(8%)>exp(26)>haste>mastery>crit
3) UP hit(8%)>exp(26)>haste>mastery>crit

This is what I found simming a million times my character:

Frost Pres, hit (spell hit cap)>exp>haste>crit>mastery.

Not only spell hit isn't hard to get, is at about 821 rating, but also it helps you to play easier...

EwokChilli · 04/14/11, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by thebitterfig

Haste does not effect the GCD for DK.

Rather, haste only decreases the GCD for abilities classified as spells. Healing spells like Riptide or Renew, Damage Spells like Ice Lance or Corruption, etc. By and large, DK abilities are not spells (maybe HB, DC, DnD and a few others, but I'd have to check), and do not have their GCD decreased by Haste. 1.5 seconds is the standard for DK. As a result, the use of UP and it's 1 second GCD for very high-haste situations is advisable.

Haste does affect HB, DC, Outbreak, DnD, Ghoul Summon, AotD, and BB.

greatzar · 04/15/11, 9:41 AM

Say good bye to the rigid, fixed rotations of the past, and hello to the priority-based playstyle of Cataclysm:
Diseases > Ob if both Frost/Unholy pairs and/or both Death runes are up, or if KM is procced >
BS if both Blood Runes are up > FS if RP capped > Rime > Ob > BS > FS > HoW.

I think it must be like this:
Diseases > Ob if both Frost/Unholy pairs and/or both Death runes are up, or if KM is procced >
BS if both Blood Runes are up > FS if RP capped >
Ob > FS > Rime > BS > HoW.

The reason:
If you get to the third line then you already not wasting runes and RP. So, there is no reason to not use your most powerful strike (Ob) to get fully depleted runes and RP for FS.
If you get past that Ob on the third line, there is no reason to not use your second most damagin skill (FS) to get RE procs to Ob later.

fiddleus · 04/15/11, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by greatzar

I think it must be like this:
Diseases > Ob if both Frost/Unholy pairs and/or both Death runes are up, or if KM is procced >
BS if both Blood Runes are up > FS if RP capped >
Ob > FS > Rime > BS > HoW.

The reason:
If you get to the third line then you already not wasting runes and RP. So, there is no reason to not use your most powerful strike (Ob) to get fully depleted runes and RP for FS.
If you get past that Ob on the third line, there is no reason to not use your second most damagin skill (FS) to get RE procs to Ob later.

But as long as you're in a controlled situation there's also no reason to waste Rime procs by Ob'ing while it's up, so I disagree with moving Rime down. Moving FS up I agree with for the next week or two, but that becomes moot in 4.1.

Krab� t · 04/15/11, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by fiddleus

But as long as you're in a controlled situation there's also no reason to waste Rime procs by Ob'ing while it's up, so I disagree with moving Rime down. Moving FS up I agree with for the next week or two, but that becomes moot in 4.1.

As long as you are playing in UP it's all about maximizing your ressources. That includes using every Rime proc aslong as your Haste is to low to be fully GCD capped and I don't think that this is reachable with the current Gear.

In regards of the Statweights for 2H and DW, I don't see any huge differnce in the Gearselection.
Both Speccs get the most out of Haste at the moment and while Crit and Mastery will end at having nearly the same EP in 4.1.
The only question left for me is to pick up enough Hit to get Spellhit capped for DW, that would mean picking up 220 more Hitrating and sacrificing pretty much of one of our secondary Stats (Stylecap at around 600 Hitrating and Spellhitcap at 821).
When me and my DK Companion were working at our BiS-list we ended up with
chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm for DW (in UP)
chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm for 2H
Hit- and Expertisecap work out quite well and it allows to pick up the most out of Haste and Mastery. If you want to pick up Spellhitcap I would recommend picking up the Alakir-sword with Hit/Expertise and reforge the rest.

Jander · 04/16/11, 6:42 PM

After some deliberation, I have decided to go back to 2H Frost.

Stacking haste and using frost presence in DW gave me good results against a single target, but it made it extremely hard to pick up the utility talents. In order to get Chilblains and Icy Reach I had to drop a point in Epidemic and Butchery and forgo Runic Power Mastery. Given that I raid 10 mans and I need to spec for utility for some of the fights, 2H is simply a better choice for me given the state of our talent tree and the (IMO) necessity of runic power mastery for a DW-Haste approach.

One thing I liked about DW was that it made my [Darkmoon Card: Hurricane] pretty worthwhile. I was getting a solid 4 PPM with an average hit of around 6400.

I was planning on using [Heart of Solace] since I didn't have any BoP raid drop trinkets yet. Not expecting to get good results, I spent about 10 minutes on the raid target dummy and got around 4 PPM. I wrote it off as luck. Came back a little later and got around 3.8 PPM. I repeated again and got almost 5 PPM. At this point I was pretty convinced that the DMC was giving me the same PPM with my 2H setup as with my DW.

I decided to collect some data to post here. I was self buffed with a char sheet haste of 78.71%(2205 Rating).

Min Procs PPM

11.77 50 4.25

10.43 56 5.37

11.32 58 5.12

10.95 39 3.56

18.46 79 4.28

In total I had 282 Procs in 62.93 Minutes of combat for 4.48 PPM. Assuming an average hit of 6400 and a spell crit rate of 7.8% (2.8 From Crit Rating + 5% from Critical Mass YMMV) this amounts to:

4.48 Procs * 6400 Dmg/Proc * 1.078 = 30908 Damage
30908 Damge/ 60 seconds = 515 DPS

Even with worst case numbers we still have 3.5 PPM and 6400 damage for a total of 373 DPS.

TLDR
[Darkmoon Card: Hurricane] Appears to be a contender for BiS for 2H, at least with high levels of haste. Given the lack of an ICD on the proc, it will continue to scale with more haste giving enough longevity to last at least until 4.2

Inruins · 04/19/11, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Mhobius

Has anybody here taken in consideration that Improved Blood Tap might be worth now? Consindering how Blade Barrier works with the new Blood of the North (it's triggered by Death Runes on cd, instead of normal Blood Runes), Blood Tap should be a free full recharged Death Rune every 30 sec. It's like two 100% guaranteed Runic Empowerment procs every 1 minute. No more wasted Blood Taps on Death Runes, no more need to wait Blood Runes on cd to use it "optimally" by usually wasting few seconds. This will make Haste less valuable due to GCD capping, but it will increase the value of Crit/Mastery. This theory needs in-depth testing on the PTR, which atm is impossible to do, because the launcher is currently bugged. It wasn't even properly possible before, because as you know, Runes were broken for the most part in the previous PTR builds. I will test it when possible. Feedback is welcome.

That is true, but, in 4.1 blood Tap will be useless due to the upgrade to Blood of The North, blood runes will be death Runes at all times, so no more blood Tap or blood Strike in the rotation

. I cant wait to see how much burst (and aggro lol) i can get when i open with an outbreak, pop my CDs, and 3 obliterates folowed by frost strikes. Cant wait till that damn patch comes out.

EwokChilli · 04/19/11, 12:19 PM

Blood Tap won't be useless because it still refreshes a rune, hence getting another Oblit sooner.

Being GCD capped after the initial 6 runes are spent is actually unlikely unless doing 2H in FP. Without any haste you get back 3 runes every 10 seconds, not 6 runes every 10 seconds. In FP you're likely to get 2x OB, 2x FS, 1x HB (Rime) every 10 seconds. Any RE & Rime procs more/less than that is simply RNG at work. That's about 7.5 seconds out of 10 seconds accounted for.

Blood Tap every 30 seconds allows a minimum of an additional OB every minute. Probably less than that due to the additional RP which converts into FS and RE procs. Not to mention Blood Tap resetting the GCD which could allow for a minor tempo improvement.

NaeblisHyjal · 04/19/11, 2:27 PM

Speaking of blood tap I decided to run some sims with blood tap in the spec instead of epidemic for 4.1.
I first ran the sims in the T11 BIS 4.1 found on simcraft, then I used my own gear using chardev then imported it into simcraft. I ran these sims using the default simcraft rotations which seem to be a copy of zenwhoah's simcraft rotation from earlier pages in this thread.

These are the two specs used:
Frost DW with Epidemic
Frost DW with Blood Tap

BIS:
Frost Presence
--Epidemic: 28930 Results Data
--Blood Tap: 28774Results Data

Unholy Presence
--Epidemic: 29324 Results Data
--Blood Tap: 29581 Results Data

My Gear:
Frost Presence
--Epidemic: 26354 Results Data
--Blood Tap: 26147 Results Data

Unholy Presence
--Epidemic: 26448 Results Data
--Blood Tap: 26494 Results Data

From these sims it looks like the blood tap spec runs better while using Unholy Presence.
However, what I don't understand is that both specs run better in Unholy Presence. I was under the assumption that the traditional Frost DW spec was supposed to perform better in Frost Presence.

--
Edit: Optimized my gear more for frost, it was unholy optimized at first. Included links to my sim results.