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Old 12/28/10, 5:54 PM   #76
Kregolich
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
Most likely you're doing something wrong with the sim. Perhaps you're in Unholy Presence, maybe you have the wrong talent spec selected, possibly the rotation you're using isn't optimized. Or the sim picked up some bug recently. Whatever the case, your numbers are simply implausible; I'll review the stat later today, just in case, but I doubt it's wrong and I know that, even if it is, it's not by nearly so large a margin.
I've been getting the same issue within the past few days so I'm inclined to say that there is a bug somewhere (I've checked, re-checked, and re-run several times).
Example:

EP Strength 2.08
EP CritRating 0.4
EP MasteryRating 0.48
EP HasteRating 1.2
EP ExpertiseRating 0.42
Before Melee Hit Cap 0.58

This makes no sense. My gut tells me that its building from existing ratings/forgings/etc rather than going from a blank slate.

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Old 12/28/10, 6:21 PM   #77
jameasson
Banned
 
Human Death Knight
 
Bronzebeard
It appears that Darkmoon Card: Hurricane does not have an internal cooldown. I wonder what the results would be if a DW frost death knight prioritizes haste above crit plus unholy presence. If the proc goes from 2-3 procs per minute to 4-7 procs per minute by doing this, that would be very nice.

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Old 12/28/10, 7:03 PM   #78
Frostx
Piston Honda
 
Goblin Death Knight
 
Korgath
I've been reforging for haste recently till i'm at 8.xx%. Without haste, the RNG on RE and Rime can really hurt and it happens quite often (having zero or only 1 proc) leaving me auto attacking for a good 3-4 globals with my ERW button looking very enticing. I even resorted to picking up 3/3 RPM just so I could store an extra FS (from when I had lots of procs) to use during said periods of auto attacking.

Reforging for Mastery
Strength4322 
Expertise781 (26) 
Hit613 (8.10% with NoCS) 
Crit971 (6.98%) 
Haste492 (3.84%) 
Mastery1723 (17.61) 
DPS 17299(+/- 1498)
Total Damage 6227.67m
RunicPower Total runic power used: 2649504 (328119 wasted)
Threat Per Second 13497
Generated in  15 s
Template Frost DW
Priority Xfrost
Presence Frost
Sigil 
RuneEnchant 
Pet Calculation True
Ability Damage done    hits   Crits   Misses  Glances  TPS Uptime
 Total % # Avg # % Avg # % Avg # Avg # Avg % %
FrostStrike218166807535827982634934542165764248256333455800000125660
Obliterate16028281052661572260322778416826453378833602550000092320
Melee104120989117368099402319102025834267810516615854991910926918082459970
HowlingBlast535639541928550187622408816227754462324451435081100030850
FrostFever2905191975119357243410236821328616989425314000001673100
BloodPlague17304949031169731479100244129486167292592140000099797
BloodStrike17113012232576066432191857838538421155015000009860
Ghoul144608003290239190771269161679457731905001439310291600
Army of the Dead4365643012964001472667371479029663153100000000
PlagueStrike3472603915757603249055238858521060415000002000
GCD Usage002322150232215010000000000098
Outbreak005340044840758560146601100000
Horn0035540355401000000000000
BloodTap0072430724301000000000000
PillarOfFrost0050340503401000000000000
Rime0027653027653010000000000013
ThreatOfThassarian00175885017588501000000000000
Fallen Crusader0031529031529010000000000073
MarkofKhardrosHeroic00480004800010000000000020
ImpatienceofYouth00360003600010000000000020
Pillar Of Frost00503405034010000000000027
Runic Empowerment003763003763001000000000000
Bloodlust00120001200010000000000013
Killing Machine0096175096175010000000000032
EP AttackPower 0.79 DPS
EP Strength 2.26
EP Agility 1.22
EP CritRating 0.56
EP MasteryRating 0.68
EP HasteRating 0.72
EP ExpertiseRating 1.04
Before Melee Hit Cap 1.02
EP SpellHitRating 0.55
EP WeaponDPS 5.3
EP WeaponSpeed 870
EP 2T10 194
EP 4T10 487
EP 2T11 95
EP 4T11 286
Reforging for Haste until 8.xx%
Strength4322 
Expertise781 (26) 
Hit613 (8.10% with NoCS) 
Crit877 (6.46%) 
Haste1107 (8.64%) 
Mastery1202 (14.70) 
DPS 17365(+/- 1465)
Total Damage 6251.33m
RunicPower Total runic power used: 2668128 (374662 wasted)
Threat Per Second 13546
Generated in  13.98 s
Template Frost DW
Priority Xfrost
Presence Frost
Sigil 
RuneEnchant 
Pet Calculation True
Ability Damage done    hits   Crits   Misses  Glances  TPS Uptime
 Total % # Avg # % Avg # % Avg # Avg # Avg % %
FrostStrike212061454234833792543333969158914149410319945900000122140
Obliterate16590946192663433261552838516826453504833711550000095560
Melee108596368917385908399220386925864368155517414892921911388418102462550
HowlingBlast528076299829405179592500015612764405312761336061100030420
FrostFever2766500564119358231810301420408616344406714000001593100
BloodStrike174756147326401661922571578286383011554140000010060
BloodPlague17227061431166211477100563129886160582597140000099297
Ghoul146460618291410190572241161679462631875001454310301600
Army of the Dead4432306513060001452753481449030652151100000000
PlagueStrike3419864705684601748805258868041062214000001970
GCD Usage002352070235207010000000000099
Outbreak005340045140758260146601100000
Horn0025620256201000000000000
BloodTap0071110711101000000000000
PillarOfFrost0052330523301000000000000
Rime0028485028485010000000000014
ThreatOfThassarian00178897017889701000000000000
Fallen Crusader0032582032582010000000000074
MarkofKhardrosHeroic00480004800010000000000020
ImpatienceofYouth00360003600010000000000020
Pillar Of Frost00523305233010000000000028
Runic Empowerment003789003789001000000000000
Bloodlust00120001200010000000000013
Killing Machine001008060100806010000000000032
EP AttackPower 0.78 DPS
EP Strength 2.26
EP Agility 1.2
EP CritRating 0.56
EP MasteryRating 0.68
EP HasteRating 0.04
EP ExpertiseRating 1.08
Before Melee Hit Cap 1.2
EP SpellHitRating 0.8
EP WeaponDPS 5.3
EP WeaponSpeed 910
EP 2T10 200
EP 4T10 489
EP 2T11 88
EP 4T11 289

edit: Also Consider, I'd be interested in your thoughts on DMC: Hurricane for Frost DW. The sim is giving me values of around 1500dps for it compared to ~845 for license to slay and ~1000 for heroic heart of rage. It should proc a lot more for Frost DW compared to Unholy 2h/DW given that all our melee specials hit twice which should make it BIS for Frost taking into account what you said about it for Unholy.

Last edited by Frostx : 12/28/10 at 8:12 PM.

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Old 12/29/10, 2:35 PM   #79
Theodos
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Sargeras
Haste and Crit

Originally Posted by Consider View Post
DW, on the other hand, places a premium on mastery. This isn't because it benefits more from the stat than 2H, but simply that it doesn't gain extra value from the other options! Crit is in second, with haste bringing up the rear. The reason why haste is so mediocre for the spec all comes down to the fact that DW, even in entry level gear, is GCD capped, and thus doesn't get the full benefit that it otherwise would.
In theory, the argument here on haste vs. crit makes sense. However, as shown by the sims posted above and through extensive anecdotal evidence posted by numerous DW Frost DKs and my own personal raid experience, this just doesn't hold water.

The crit vs. haste argument through the end of WotLK was pretty murky, but it was simmable (DW was actually GCD capped at high haste levels and significant resources were wasted during cooldown phases like heroism, ERW, etc) to a point where you could find a soft haste-cap for your gear.

Now, sims are showing haste to be higher than crit in many cases, some by pretty significant margins. While there may be an issue with the simulator itself and how it's screenshotting your stats, that has not been addressed and shouldn't be taken into account until clarified.

Anecdotally, I think DW Frost DKs across the board are experiencing some pretty heavy lapses in their "GCD-locked" rotation. I understand that it's difficult to quantify the effect of RE in many cases, but to attribute each and every lapse in your rotation to bad RE RNG seems a bit incorrect. At these gear levels, haste isn't likely to entirely eliminate the effect of "bad RE RNG," but it also isn't likely to cause you to waste a ton of resources like you make it seem in the OP. The way I have envisioned it, is that it smooths out the wrinkle that a bad RNG streak leaves.

I'm not making a case that haste > crit universally, but to say that the issue is as black and white as the OP states is not entirely correct. DW Frost isn't wasting resources currently if you are executing a proper rotation. Of course, that changes with things like heroism and ERW; but those are not applicable to this discussion. I just think a better argument needs to be made for crit, considering it's not supported really at all by any means now.

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Old 12/29/10, 10:27 PM   #80
Maeylor
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Burning Blade
I'm having trobles on the haste issue as well.
4.25% Haste
8.2% Hit, which I'm trying to get to an even 8%
5.7% Crit
and my awful mastery...which I'm trying to get higher
12.41
26 Expertise

I'm still in the process of getting Raid gear, I have 3 pieces of gear to replace, sitting ilvl 340.
However, after reforging to get my stats at what they are now, I noticed Im waiting SO much on my runes, following the listed rotation nearly flawlessly.
I'm hitting the best numbers I have hit yet, with Heroic boss fights being 15k average.

I've a good feeling that will change once I replace my 3 pieces of gear, however any ideas?

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Old 12/29/10, 10:35 PM   #81
Consider
King Hippo
 
Consider's Avatar
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
Kregolich seems to have narrowed down the issue with haste and the simulator, over in the sim's thread, at least to an extent. Whatever else, he's managed to prove it exists, although it was obvious enough previously due to the exorbitant values. I miss the old version of the sim; the silverlight one has been more problematic, it seems. There's a bug; to not take it into account is just willful ignorance when it's clear as day that something is going on. I'm sure Kahorie will narrow down exactly what's causing it and fix it as soon as possible, but there's no point in going off a tangent of theorycraft which is based off a program acting up.

At any rate, his results closely echo mine; haste is still a bit higher than I have it, but lower than crit, and that's likely because Kregolich is using his own gear, which has a mere 3%; in full 359, it would simply come down.

Anecdotally, I would bet a lot of the reason people aren't feeling as GCD capped as the spec may be is because of the undocumented but easily noticed bug of runes randomly jumping back half a second or so, on top of their treatment of RE; a factor of play which has been discussed surprisingly little. The rune bug is pretty clear, and a huge factor as to why Frost is underperforming relative to Unholy. As to RE, although, yes, using procs instantly for DnD/HB/BS is faulty behavior, so is using procs for nothing more than Obliterate/BS. In reality, sometimes you want to do the first, and sometimes you want to do the latter. It all depends when RE procs; a HB + DnD does outdamage an Obliterate (ignoring KM, that is), but the additional GCD cost of the former, in addition to the lack of Rime, makes it fall behind in a vaccuum. If RE procs a single Unholy or Frost rune where you'll have empty GCDs following it because you'll have no other runes up (or two of that type which just procced) and sub 32 RP, you are better off using one of those two spells, since the globals would otherwise go to waste. On the other hand, if RE procs and you can still do something else, it's more ideal to leave the proc sitting, do the other stuff you can do, and you'll likely be able to Oblit once you get around to using that specific rune.

In terms of the sim, it's much easier to think of: You would set your priority as Rime > Frost Fever > Blood Plague > FS Max RP > Oblit > BS > FS > HB > DnD > BT > ERW. Basically, it will do your rotation as normal, but DnD/HB when it can't do anything else. Very easy to see that it does result in more dps, as logically makes sense, although in actual play there's some situations where you would hold off, of course, which the sim isn't smart enough to differentiate.

But, yes, there will always be times where you run into GCD gaps, just as there will be times (the entire duration of Heroism, for instance) where you can't use them fast enough. Overall, however, the spec uses the vast majority of its globals without gearing/reforging for any haste, or at least would be if the rune bug wasn't around, and thus I still hold the stat is weak for the spec, and the objective proof seems to back me up. If you believe differently, you are of course welcome to gear yourself as you will and argue (with some sort of support, of course) otherwise, but I don't see any need to change anything here (although I could touch up the wording, yes) based off the lack of (faultless) evidence to the contrary provided so far.

The rune bug is the real thorn in the side of this issue; I would just math around it since it doesn't seem like it will be fixed any time soon, but I've yet to see (or been able to determine myself) what causes it to happen, and exactly how it works.

Last edited by Consider : 12/29/10 at 10:52 PM.

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Old 12/30/10, 12:24 AM   #82
Mericet
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Kargath
The ilvl 372 Soul Blade is listed as BIS weapon for dual wield, but I'm not actually sure it exists. The ilvl 359 version is a drop from trash in bastion of twilight, and is BoE. The ilvl 372 version does appear on the official armory site and is also BoE, but has no listed mobs that it can drop from. Similarly, it has never been seen by wowhead's database.

I don't have first-hand knowledge of heroic raids, but in the past there's never been any kind of heroic trash. The only other thing I can think of is maybe it has a chance to drop from a boss on heroic as extra loot, but that doesn't explain why even the official armory doesn't have a source listed. Has anyone seen it?

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Old 12/30/10, 11:12 AM   #83
Shyle
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Uther
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
Anecdotally, I would bet a lot of the reason people aren't feeling as GCD capped as the spec may be is because of the undocumented but easily noticed bug of runes randomly jumping back half a second or so, on top of their treatment of RE; a factor of play which has been discussed surprisingly little. The rune bug is pretty clear, and a huge factor as to why Frost is underperforming relative to Unholy.
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic of the thread, but I, as well as pretty much everyone here I'm sure, has noticed this issue first hand, has this been brought up to Blizzard regarding a fix, or have they even acknowledged it?

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Old 12/30/10, 12:02 PM   #84
Orctank
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Crushridge
Originally Posted by Mericet View Post
The ilvl 372 Soul Blade is listed as BIS weapon for dual wield, but I'm not actually sure it exists. The ilvl 359 version is a drop from trash in bastion of twilight, and is BoE. The ilvl 372 version does appear on the official armory site and is also BoE, but has no listed mobs that it can drop from. Similarly, it has never been seen by wowhead's database.

I don't have first-hand knowledge of heroic raids, but in the past there's never been any kind of heroic trash. The only other thing I can think of is maybe it has a chance to drop from a boss on heroic as extra loot, but that doesn't explain why even the official armory doesn't have a source listed. Has anyone seen it?
there is no proof to support that it actually exists and every reason to believe it does not. there is even a 359 trash drop that is listed as heroic despite the obvious discrepancy in ilvl. it might also be worth noting that throne of the four winds drops contain "random" properties which are based on a suffix system related to a main stat. this means that there are belt, leg, ring, and main hand sword possibilities for various stat combinations including hit/expertise(of the landslide), expertise/mastery(of the mountainbed), and crit/mastery(of the earthbreaker). there are also several sub-optimal stat combinations available that can be reforged to be almost as good.

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Old 12/30/10, 12:09 PM   #85
Mindaika
Piston Honda
 
Mindaika's Avatar
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Frostwolf
A bug I assume, but it should probably be mentioned in the OP: The paper doll doesn't appear to reflect the yellow hit required for Nerves of Cold Steel (i.e. it shows 8% required vs. skull, rather than 5%)

Tastes like Awesome, because it's made of Awesome(TM)

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Old 12/30/10, 1:04 PM   #86
 Darkside
I find your lack of faith disturbing
 
Darkside's Avatar
 
Kroot
Orc Death Knight
 
No WoW Account
It actually does take it into account. If you mouseover the tooltip with 5% hit from gear and three points in Nerves of Cold steel you will see that you have a 0% chance to miss on level 88 mobs.

Originally Posted by Silmeria View Post
See this is how engineers argue! Why the fuck we gotta have 17 page threads on how much Diablo 3 sucks I blame liberal arts majors

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Old 12/30/10, 2:29 PM   #87
Shareth
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
Anecdotally, I would bet a lot of the reason people aren't feeling as GCD capped as the spec may be is because of the undocumented but easily noticed bug of runes randomly jumping back half a second or so, on top of their treatment of RE; a factor of play which has been discussed surprisingly little. The rune bug is pretty clear, and a huge factor as to why Frost is underperforming relative to Unholy.
Unholy has the same bug. It appears when you spec into Runic Corruption. According to testing by other people (don't remember whom) Frost has this bug if you spec into Rime. This explains why Blood is not affected by it.

So this bug affects both Frost and Unholy in the same way.

Author of DKM.

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Old 12/30/10, 3:47 PM   #88
Consider
King Hippo
 
Consider's Avatar
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
Yes, Unholy is affected by it, but it's not affected in the same way (or, rather, by the same magnitude) for various reasons: not the least of which is its lesser reliance on rune attacks, of course.

As to the BiS lists, I'll comb through them tonight, as I recently did for Unholy, to make sure all the items exist, are accurate, reforging is proper, etcetera. I've been mixed on how to handle the TotFW loot. For Unholy, it's not a factor, as none of the potential items would be BiS (besides the ring), but for Frost, the ring/belt/weapon could all be easily superior to their other counterpart. I suppose technically best is best, even if the drop chance is lower than normal. I'll look at it tonight.

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Old 12/30/10, 6:35 PM   #89
phete
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Death Knight
 
<Ice>
Executus (EU)
So what is this I hear about DMC: Hurricane not having an internal CD? Where would that place the trinket in comparison to the Valor-trinket and BRC-trinket?

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Old 12/31/10, 4:47 AM   #90
Starfox
King Hippo
 
Starfox's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Destromath (EU)
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
  • Spells have a 16% chance to miss against boss level mobs. At 102 hit rating per 1% spell hit, it takes 1632 hit rating to become spell hit capped. For those specced into it, Virulence reduces the chance to 7%, meaning you need 714 rating to then be spell capped.
Spells have a 17% miss chance against bosses, so you need 8% spell hit with Virulence, about 816 rating

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