Frost DPS | 4.2 Against All Odds - Page 11

Kurtov · 05/11/11, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Baphomette

Well, stateofdps has us middle of the pack at the moment so I'm not sure why they feel the urgent need to change anything. It's been nice not feeling like a raid detriment since 4.1.

If you only consider each class' best spec, we're 2nd from the bottom. Only shamans have worse dps than us in their highest DPS spec.

Khimra · 05/11/11, 5:14 AM

With the upcoming Obliterate change in 4.2, is it possible that mastery stacking und using a HB rotation will be more viable?
At least mastery could get more important than now as a result of the increased %-frostdamage compared to the pure physical dmg

SioDK · 05/11/11, 6:40 AM

The OB nerf seems to direct us more towards frost dmg, which in turn profits from mastery. Making mastery maybe more important than haste again. This would also devaluate the unholy presence and might give the frost presence the best dps values again. Blizz hates frost dks using unholy presence? Sounds like something they'd do.
Can someone find hard evidence to this theory?

naliel · 05/11/11, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by Baphomette

Oblit is still way ahead of FS, curious that they chose this approach. Well, stateofdps has us middle of the pack at the moment so I'm not sure why they feel the urgent need to change anything. It's been nice not feeling like a raid detriment since 4.1.

Despite not playing it, I guess this nerf was just implemented cause of frost dk burst dmg in PvP. I can't figure out any other logical reason. I think this was just the beginning of a few class changes, and I hope they will buff other sources of our dmg. I really don't wanna reroll on a warlock or warrior.

Pillion · 05/11/11, 11:33 AM

In the debate of which is better 2h or DW I think one point, which could favor DW over 2h is Nerves of Cold Steel (NoCS), which in itself is being debated that it takes up talent points preventing DW from taking utility talents.

NoCS provides 3% hit for 1 handers, which means that DW can reforge some hit to a more useful secondary ability where 2h cannot. With haste being currently being the best secondary stat being able to pick up more haste, reforged from hit, should make up if not surpass the difference in DPS between DW and 2h.

HellHamsterr · 05/11/11, 2:42 PM

Haven't seen any numbers yet on how the Obliterate nerf will affect our dps if those changes go live, so here goes:

Obliterate weapon damage % appearing on the tooltip is calculated like this (without the bonus damage):

4.1

100 * (Base Damage * (1+ Annihilation Rank * 0.15 + Glyph + Might of the Frozen Wastes)) =
100 * (1.6 * (1+ 0.45+ 0.2 + 0.12)) = 100 * (1.6 * 1.77) = 283%

4.2

100 * (Base Damage * (1 + Annihilation Rank * 0.12 + Glyph + Might of the Frozen Wastes)) =
100 * (1.5 * (1 + 0.36 + 0.20 + 0.12)) = 100 * (1.5 * 1.68) = 252%

Might of the Frozen Wastes = 0 if Dual Wield, 0.12 if Two Handed. However, it won't matter anyways since this number is a constant, so the %differential will be the same between 4.1 and 4.2 for both specs, but for the sake of argument I calculate it for Two Handed.

That is a 12% damage decrease of Obliterate.

According to Simulationcraft Results , Obliterate is 27.5% of our total damage, and a 12% decrease of that damage will mean a 3.3% (12% of 27.5%) overall damage decrease. However there is something fishy about that 27.5% damage coming from Obliterate as I know from my own parses that it's like 35-36%, so a 12% decrease of that damage will mean a 4%+ overall damage nerf.

So if you use a priority list like this one here for two handed http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t121704-...6/#post1926204 , it proves to be somewhat even compared to the top two handed spec in 4.2 if it uses the same stats to gear for as it does right now.

cmb1705 · 05/11/11, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by CortDK

Frost DW can take Epidemic, Icy Reach and Endless Winter and still sim 100 dps ahead of 2h. (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) I believe the reason 2h is dominant is because most people switched over from unholy and already had their 2handers. If 4.0.6 had unholy as best dps with DW, then i think you'd see them running as DW frost.

But if you're looking to min max, certainly the sim numbers show DW has the advantage. What are the compelling arguments for 2h?

I'm personally still playing 2h because drop rates have been bad with 1h for us, but there might be something to be said for MotFW's 45% chance to proc 10 RP each swing.

Baphomette · 05/11/11, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by naliel

Despite not playing it, I guess this nerf was just implemented cause of frost dk burst dmg in PvP. I can't figure out any other logical reason. I think this was just the beginning of a few class changes, and I hope they will buff other sources of our dmg. I really don't wanna reroll on a warlock or warrior.

Not sure their reasoning but it is definitely not that. PVP Frost entails HB NS FS; Oblit is already only used on mages and to a lesser extent other clothies and leather. If this change goes live as is I don't think I will be using Oblit in PVP at all. Glyphed Death Strike comes pretty close to HellHamsterr's new numbers above and I know that's a button I'll still be pressing.

As far as PVE goes though I'm worried how much further Oblit can go down before 1 HB+1 PS outdamage it.

Ehrgeix · 05/11/11, 11:45 PM

A large part of the value of oblit is in 3/3 rime, though - so 1hb+1ps would have to outdamage 1oblit+0.45hb before they became worth using over obliterate (this seems unlikely). I think it's also worth considering 2xhb vs oblit+0.45hb (death runes), and how much obliterate benefits from the 4p t12 bonus.

I do think a part of the obliterate nerf was PvP centric - hb + ns are the most used strikes for frostdks in PvP, but especially in 3s 3x oblit in 3 gcds is a *huge* amount of spike damage, and if you can line it up with a friendly mage deepfreeze burst (or another frostdk using 3x oblit - my current comp!, etc), it's remarkably hard to heal through.

Taiyoken · 05/12/11, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by Baphomette

Not sure their reasoning but it is definitely not that. PVP Frost entails HB NS FS; Oblit is already only used on mages and to a lesser extent other clothies and leather. If this change goes live as is I don't think I will be using Oblit in PVP at all. Glyphed Death Strike comes pretty close to HellHamsterr's new numbers above and I know that's a button I'll still be pressing.

As far as PVE goes though I'm worried how much further Oblit can go down before 1 HB+1 PS outdamage it.

The issue with this isn't OB itself, it's just that you normally don't spec 3/3 Annihilation in PvP in order to pick up utility talents, mainly 1 minute silence + Unholy Command (8/31/2 spec). However you can spec it and just make a 'big numbers' spec and just bulldoze your way through anything under 3000 resilience (non rated BGs pretty much), and seeing how resilience will scale less since the "DR" was implemented, OB may have led to some ridiculous numbers at the end of Firelands.

Snob · 05/12/11, 12:19 PM

So there's something that's been bugging me a lot lately. On single targets we use Obliterate as our main strike, and on multiple targets (AoE) we use Howling Blast. Big question here is:

Are two targets considered multiple targets? Yes. However, does the damage from Howling Blast on dual targets outweigh Obliterate?

On three or more targets the answer is obvious; AoE rotation yields the most DPS.

With doing the single target rotation, where we assume average numbers from each strike (non-crit) taken from several heroic Chimaeron WoL parses in full Heroic gear:

3 Obliterates fit in a rotation, with a 45% chance for Obliterate to proc a free Howling Blast. 1 Frost Strike; one rotation takes approximately 4-5 seconds:

This is for 2-handed Frost

Average Obliterate: 24,000
Average Howling B: 18,000
Average Frost Strike: 17,000
Average Plague Strike: 6,500
Average DnD tick: 1,200

One single target rotation:

3 OB * 24,000 = 72,000

+ 0.45 HB * 18,000 * 3 (OB) = 24,300 + (24,300 * 0.50) = 36,450 <---- 2nd target takes half damage.

+ 1 FS * 17,000 = 17,000

Total = 125,450

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4 Howling Blasts fit in one rotation, DnD and Plague Strike are cast to make the best of Unholy runes. 1 Frost Strike

One multiple target rotation:

4 HB * 18,000 = 72,000 + (0.50 * 72,000) = 108,000

+ 1 FS * 17,000 = 17,000

+ 1 PS * 6,500 = 6,500

+ 12 DnD ticks * 1,200 / 30 seconds = 480 per second * 4 seconds = 1920

Total = 133,420

This is assuming both targets have Frost Fever (due to HB glyph) and only the main target has Blood Plague (although you could easily apply BP on both targets with the AoE rotation, thus slightly increasing the DPS).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Assuming 1 KM proc with average Obliterate critical for 50,000

One single target rotation:

(2 OB * 24,000) + (1 OB * 50,000) = 98,000

+ 0.45 HB * 18,000 * 3 (OB) = 24,300 + (24,300 * 0.50) = 36,450 <---- 2nd target takes half damage.

+ 1 FS * 17,000 = 17,000

Total = 151,450

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Assuming 1 KM proc with average Frost Strike critical for 38,000

One multiple target rotation:

4 HB * 18,000 = 72,000 + (0.50 * 72,000) = 108,000

+ 1 FS * 38,000 = 38,000

+ 1 PS * 6,500 = 6,500

+ 12 DnD ticks * 1,200 / 30 seconds = 480 per second * 4 seconds = 1920

Total = 154,420

So in theory an AoE rotation yields slightly higher DPS than a single target rotation on two targets. However, I've put this to test numerous times, and more often than not I seem to wind up with slightly higher DPS while doing a single target rotation rather than the AoE. RNG also plays a huge role; Lucky chain of KM procs would put the single target rotation ahead of the AoE rotation.

Any input? Which is better in practice?

piberry · 05/13/11, 2:38 AM

Frost/Unholy Death Knight 4-Piece: Old bonus removed and replaced -- Your Obliterate and Scourge Strike abilities deal 6% additional damage as Fire damage over 4 seconds.

New bonus for 4pt12 DK, which should bring us around 2% dps.

Chubbs8 · 05/13/11, 5:32 AM

Originally Posted by Grimaxe

So dual wield is supposed to be a little bit better. Wondering why every single top frost dk on world of logs is 2 handed?

Could be due to lack of 372 DW options for them personally. Or they just feel more comfortable with increased RP -> more potential Runes

Omedus · 05/13/11, 8:34 AM

Originally Posted by Chubbs8

Could be due to lack of 372 DW options for them personally. Or they just feel more comfortable with increased RP -> more potential Runes

There are 2 different heroic 1-Handers (Lava Spine and Stormwake) and 3 heroic 2-Handers (Akirus, Shalug'doom, and Ashkandi). The choice difference isn't that big. I would agree with the comfortable part. It should also be stated that DW may beat 2H on a sim, but sims are a means, not an end. I think a lot of people value sim'd numbers far too highly. Outside of Chimaeron, there isn't an encounter where you can tunnel the entire time and get near-perfect procs, which favors 2H more so than DW imo.

rh8452 · 05/13/11, 8:57 AM

2H gets the situational talents more easily.
2H is less affected by bad RNG
2H is less punished by being forced off of the boss for a period or target switching.
2H has no rampup time (razorice isn't much rampup, but it is a rampup).

The sims may say DW is 500 dps ahead or whatever, but in the real world 2H is more flexible and practical. There's no Patchwerks anymore. All the sim data is useful for is determining which priority or rotation system results in optimal DPS when you're on the target.

I do DW on H Al'akir and a few other fights where I'm guaranteed 100% boss uptime since I happen to have the weapons for it and I simply enjoy DW. But it is true that there's really only one available DW option for most people due to Magmaw being a very easy heroic boss compared to Al'akir., and the odds of Al'akir dropping a sword with better itemization are very slim.