So your argument isn't that they can take more utility talents, but that they can take them and still sim at a higher DPS, which is erroneously based on a misplaced faith in the simulations. Again, I'd caution against placing too much trust in them, they have proved to be wildly innaccurate in the past and nothing I have seen recently indicates that any of that has changed. The only data that we can trust for certain is the parse data which, as I have mentioned before, all points towards 2h being a superior spec in the wild.

Now, as others have brought up, this could be because the data is biased: perhaps the better players are all choosing to play as 2h over DW, but I don't think this is the case (there is a DK in paragon using a DW spec and he his parses are consistently beaten by 2h users) and even if it were, the parse data is still the only data we have with any veracity to it at all. My personal experience is that DW is much more volatile of a spec than 2h, because of the inherent differences in fast/slow swingtimes. Namely: Proc uptimes (Killing Machine/Unholy Strength) and minimum time interval on Killing Machine procs (DW can accrue them at a higher rate giving an increased chance of them being used on FS instead of OB or being overwritten entirely). As well with KM, DW will have a much smaller RP generation rate, meaning more deadtime and more potential chances for KM to be overwritten. Additionally on any fight that involves periods of downtime (which is most fights in this expansion so far), DW will have to spend time restacking Razorice. Finally, with its higher RP generation, 2h will be able to sit on a U/F pair longer, maximizing the amount of KM procs that are given to OB. Little differences, to be sure, but they add up.

Now the data does not indicate that DW is an inferior spec, not by any stretch of the imagination; there are plenty of high DW parses. There are just a whole lot *more* 2h ones and as it stands there is nothing to indicate that there is a 500 DPS gap between DW and 2h. If and when that (non-sim) evidence presents itself, I imagine there will be a general shift in the community mindset towards DW over 2h, but that has not happened yet.

Correct, except for claiming erroneously based. They are based on the sim yes. But it can be similarly said that this talk about 2h being the stronger spec is erroneously based on what the top parsers are using. That is a whopping assumption, and an unreasonable conclusion jump to claim outright that 2h is therefore the more capable spec. We are at the end of this tier, and 4.1 came in when people were already fully geared for their 4.0.6 unholy which included wielding 2handers, and their frost offspec if they had one would likely have also been using their 2h.

Blind faith works both ways.

It just seems to be PvP affecting PvE. I don't think anyone believes DKs are overpowered in end-game raiding performance. I think the death rune change was a terrible way to increase our DPS, but it's there now and so I think they now need to find another way to balance burst.

Isn't that what you quoted me saying? Please don't jump to the conclusion I posted the log to show how omfg my dps is compared to my fellow guildy. That's not what I said at all... and for the majority of fights we are not neck and neck.
Learn to read?

nice...

I don't think for one second the top players are using 2H frost because they cant get their hands on some Lava spines.

This cannot be the reason.

You're being extremely stubborn and clinging to a ridiculous idea about why 2h is more prominent. The issue has nothing to do with weapon availability. 2h performs more consistently and picks up all the utility without sacrificing any DPS to do so. DW sims marginally better on a sim known for being erroneous (and that's before even taking into account that Frost has always simmed poorly even when we had more accurate tools to use such as Kahorie's), but performs less consistently, and you need to make choices between talents like RPM and IR, which are significant DPS increases in any situation where there's a target out of melee range which has already been covered.

DW is viable, it performs very similarly to 2h, and if you prefer the feel I doubt anyone would bite your head off about it. However, the reason most top Frost parses are 2h is simply because it's a more consistent and flexible spec. If DW was truly just as flexible and did more DPS consistently, then the situation would be reversed.

High end raids have been killing Magmaw for months. The chances of not having DE'd multitudes of Lava Spines for most DKs in the top 200 WoL parses let alone the top 10 is outrageous. Come up with a better argument than DW simming slightly better when RNG favors it or just drop it, please.

I agree, It is absolutely ridiculous that people think "weapon availability" is the reason the majority of top raid guild DK's (or any for that matter) choose 2H over DW. Of course, it may be true in some cases. Heroic Lava Spines (the same place you get Heroic Akirus) are completely capable of competing with Stormwake/Lava Spine ("BiS"). The difference in dmg is almost non-existent. The "free" damage utility talents (RPM, Icy Reach) are definitely incredible. RPM will be even better during T12 2P set bonus (72 "free" RP every 2 minutes). I've attempted both specs post 4.1 and don't think I ever outperformed my 2H dps as DW. Albeit it's not some outrageous increase. I'd also take 2H simply for the fact that you don't get "stuck" nearly as often waiting for Rune Cd's in addition to insufficient RP. I think everyone should play whichever spec they want, but still be able to recognize that both are competitive.

The X amount of extra obliterate damage is the same number between 4.1 and 4.2, which means if you subtract each other you will always get a 0, hence the nerf will never be different than 12% if the +X damage remains the same next patch. You can find this easily if you calculate the whole thing yourself. I just shortened it in my post for this reason exactly.

The difference here is I'm stating my reasoning and identifying it as my opinion. I'm not presenting anything as fact.

I get your argument, I really do. But it boils down to pointing at the to parsers and saying "they use 2h, I assume they know what they are doing, therefore it is the superior spec". That's an extremely poor contribution to a theorycrafting thread, by any measure. Not a useless one, sure, but just an opinion -- absolutely.

The logic is unquestionable though, that given equal DPS in both talent specs taking IR and Epidemic, DW in fact provides more flexibility in speccing. So to present talent flexibility as overwhelming evidence of 2h being better is a tautology, one based on the assumption of lower DPS when doing so -- something unproven by your own arguments.

And the need for RPM is lessened by not having MotFW padding RP.

I'll stop this debate with you now because it's just going in circles. My evidence is based on sim results. Yours is based on pointing at the top players and saying they use 2h. Both are flawed, and leave us with our own opinions.

It's already been established that this is incorrect. Moving on:

Many of the top players in the top guilds who have long since had all of the content on farm are using this content to do speed runs and push the limits of DPS, be it for theorycraft or e-peen on world of logs.

They have both 1H and 2H weapons by now, after a dozen or more heroic Magmaw and Al'akir kills. Yet they're all playing 2H.

If you want to tell them they're doing it wrong and should be playing DW to max their DPS because a sim known to be flawed says to do so, by all means. I have both 372 1H and 2H weapons and have ended up switching to 2H on bosses like Sinestra and Cho'gall heroic because it gave me more DPS and flexibility on progression content. Both of those are bosses with numerous target switches where you can't keep Razorice stacked up on a kill target long enough to maximize DPS, and Cho'gall required both 2/2 Icy Reach and Endless Winter for our kill strategy. Every time I switched to 2H, I ended up doing more DPS and having runes or RP available when I needed them.

That's the thing about 2H. It allows you to coordinate your resources better. With DW, you must press buttons to generate RP. With 2H, you can generate RP by white swinging, so you always have more RP available to weave frost strikes inbetween HBs when AOEing. This ensures you don't end up standing there with no RP and nothing but an unholy rune left and no buttons to push while waiting for runes to refresh, which happens way too often with DW for my liking. The "top players" are people who coordinate their resources and take advantage of buffs/debuffs on targets, opportunities to AOE and opportunities to burst. The 2H spec offers a player more resources when those opportunities present themselves, and the best players can see that and choose the spec.

Sims don't and can't take any of those situations into account. Your "evidence" is based on results from simulating conditions which don't exist anywhere in this game.

I even like playing DW and still play it here and there, but for progression I've given up and switched to 2H because it's always given better results.

There are a few DW parses up there, and DW is capable of producing solid numbers when played well and favored by RNG. But the number of 2H parses being so overwhelmingly high by comparison is very obviously not a weapon availability issue. If DW offered a significant DPS advantage over 2H, more people would be playing it, but it does not, and in real world fights more often than not puts a player at a disadvantage.

Did anybody here actually try the SimCraft settings that let you control time off boss, running away, adds spawning, taking damage, etc?

Might be worth a shot as a big part of this discussion seems to deal with the "there are no Patchwerk fights anymore!" argument.
Besides the mentioned flaws in the simulator, which I'm not actually sure what they should be, besides "there are".

I missed this part. Can you reproduce this unbuffed on a training dummy, comparing to a SimC run with no raid buffs selected?