Frost DPS | 4.2 Against All Odds - Page 16

Snob · 05/19/11, 7:01 AM

Originally Posted by Baphomette

Annihilation now increases damage dealt by Obliterate by 15/30/45%, up from 12/24/36%.
Howling Blast damage has been reduced by 8%, from [ 1441 + 48% AP ] + [ 721 + 24% of AP ] to [ 1322 + 48% of AP ] + [ 661 + 24% of AP ]
Necrotic Strike absorb effect now scales from 70% of AP, down from 75% of AP.

And there's the PVP nerf for Frost. Looks like they're trying to keep our single-target numbers from dropping appreciably in PVE though.

Note that these are data-mined changes by mmochamp. It's not final, but it's highly likely.

If these changes go through, it's approximately an overall 0.7 - 0.9% DPS loss for single-target fights. This isn't bad considering we were originally losing out on a whole lot more. Although I'm not quite sure whether or not the 160% -> 150% nerf in Obliterate's base damage remains the same. If it does, our DPS will still hurt quite a bit. As for our AoE damage, that's a whole nother story.

Anaomin · 05/19/11, 7:52 AM

I see people saying that we need Icy Reach to hit Nefarian in P2 with HBs.

I don't have IR and can hit him with HBs without a problem after my pillar's add is dead, I just go to the edge of the pillar and HB is on range again. No extra damage taken.

I do play 10man however and if there is something diferent from 10 to 25 (assuming people are talking about 25man only) about the range of Nef and pillars, sorry, my mistake.

Aeldanwe · 05/19/11, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by Anaomin

I see people saying that we need Icy Reach to hit Nefarian in P2 with HBs.

I don't have IR and can hit him with HBs without a problem after my pillar's add is dead, I just go to the edge of the pillar and HB is on range again. No extra damage taken.

I do play 10man however and if there is something diferent from 10 to 25 (assuming people are talking about 25man only) about the range of Nef and pillars, sorry, my mistake.

That's odd. I only play 10 man and with Icy Reach I can barely hit Neffie in P2 by moving as close to the edge as possible.

Sindeady · 05/19/11, 10:53 AM

Could be different pillars? When on the balcony and facing Ony, seems like the top left pillar I would have trouble reaching but the top right pillar I could reach fine. Not sure about bottom pillar.

Illu · 05/19/11, 10:52 PM

You'll note that only the base damage of HB was nerfed according to MMO, and not the AP scaling which is the large majority of the damage. That means that nerf is incredibly small and it's not going to be near sufficient for pvp, so I'd expect further changes really.

Regarding the pillars on Nef, I play with Icy Reach and I have found that it depends on where I stand on the pillar if I can hit him or not, so I try to pick a good place whilst spreading out. I typically get to stand below the starter balcony though.

Edit - By the below post it seems the included AP-scaling in the hotfix version of the change, as the difference would be just a hundred or two if it was only base damage.

Dill� gaf · 05/20/11, 1:36 PM

Blue tracker has the PTR changes applied as hot fixes
May 19
Classes
Death Knight
Howling Blast has been reduced by approxomately 8-9%.
Necrotic Strike's AP coefficient has been reduced from 0.75 to 0.7.
Obliterate has been reduced from 160% to 150% base weapon damage.

Looking at comparison logs from May 18 to May 19 over the course of the night for attempts on H Ascendant Council I had
May 18th -
697 Oblit hits Avg - 23821.8
253 Oblit crits Avg - 46719.4

552 Howling Blast hits Avg - 16330.3
59 HB crits Avg - 36407.0

May 19th -

712 Oblit Hits Avg - 21398.0
260 Oblit crits Avg - 43775.3

872 HB hits Avg - 14361.7
94 HB crits Avg - 29075.2

28 Attempts were made on the 18th with 25 attempts on the 19th. No gear or comp changes between dates.

edit made for ease of format
Dill�*gaf-Drenden

Dill� gaf · 05/20/11, 3:02 PM

May 18th
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

May 19th
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Apologies for the name, I suppose the Alt 161 version of i doesn't translate well.

Roster - Game - World of Warcraft will get you there though.

Laraque · 05/20/11, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by legitpanda

Nice random logs. This is supposed to show what? Other than that icy reprisals carried you.

They are the logs referenced in his post that is 3 posts up. The before and after hotfix nerf data he posted looked like they were more sever then the patch notes implied and I asked to see his log for them.

For Oblit:
(1.45*(1.5*Y+X))/(1.45*(1.6*Y+X))

Where Y is weapon damage and X is the static damage added to the ability. Should lead to about a 6%ish type nerf, but the data from his posts looks more like a 10% nerf. Of course that is one log and many other factors could affect it, but with 700ish hits on the same boss it should be ballparkish.

Dill� gaf · 05/21/11, 9:21 AM

Is it possible that the data from the Annihilation change made it to live? This seemed to be a rare situation where prospective PTR changes were hotfixed to live, is it possible they hotfixed an old version that still contained the Annihilation change data?

Darkside stated the Annihilation/Obliterate build version would change Obliterate by slightly less than 12% in #191

Originally Posted by Darkside

Actually it will be slightly different, since dividing the figures like so:

(1.36*(1.5*Y+X))/(1.45*(1.6*Y+X))

Where Y is weapon damage and X is the static damage added to the ability. As you can see, if X is large compared to Y the %-weapon damage nerf will have an overall negligible effect on the damage output. Likewise if Y >> X then we will get very nearly a straight 12% reduction as discussed earlier. As it stands, we are somewhere inbetween, with X being ~10% or so of the total damage, meaning that the nerf will be less, but only slightly less, than what was originally calculated.

knowname · 05/21/11, 9:53 AM

I am having the most success dual wielding with the following build......

STR>haste to GCD cap(17.647% by my math or 2260)>hit to spell cap(8%)>mastery>crit

DPS'ing in FP, swaping to UP during heroism. Has anyone else tried this or seen the same thing?

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

My gear is not anywhere near BiS, but this build seems to work the best for me.

Parodia · 05/21/11, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sindeady

Could be different pillars? When on the balcony and facing Ony, seems like the top left pillar I would have trouble reaching but the top right pillar I could reach fine. Not sure about bottom pillar.

In my experience he's closest to the south and possibly NE pillars, definitely specific to which you're on. You can hit him with D&D from the south pillar as well but not the NW. Never tried NE.

CortDK · 05/21/11, 7:49 PM

Originally Posted by Dill� gaf

Is it possible that the data from the Annihilation change made it to live? This seemed to be a rare situation where prospective PTR changes were hotfixed to live, is it possible they hotfixed an old version that still contained the Annihilation change data?

The sample-size is way too small, and 9% (only a 2.5% upwards swing) is within RNG, and could also be other factors such as the golemblood potions better lining up with other buffs, or raid buffs falling off etc.In looking at some single fights, significantly reducing the sample size, your 2nd night's average obliterate crits were higher than your first night's.

I wouldn't read too much into 1 log. This week we'll have plenty of logs as people go through their farm content.

irongnome · 05/21/11, 7:59 PM

Why are you all checking logs in order to see if an ability modifying a spell has changed?

Just go to a target dummy and hit it a hundred times or so with varying levels of attack power and record the average damage (sans crits). Make sure you have no trinkets or enchants that will cause procs and thus create varying levels of attack power during the test.

Once thats done you manually calculate what the expected damage should be with and without the nerf. Whichever is closer is probably true.

Me and a few other DKs did this for Howling Blast and here are the results.Howling Blast Coefficient changed - Forums - World of Warcraft
We saw that it was both an 8% nerf to the base damage as well as an 8% nerf to the attack power coefficient.

If you like I can do the same for Obliterate once I get home tonight.

CortDK · 05/21/11, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by irongnome

Why are you all checking logs in order to see if an ability modifying a spell has changed?
Just go to a target dummy and hit it a hundred times or so with varying levels of attack power and record the average damage

Assuming the following formula for OBL: ((AP/14)*2.4 + 650 + Weapon Damage)*1.6*(1-DR)*(1 + 0.04)*(1 + 3*0.15 + 0.2)*(1 + 2*0.125)*(1 + 0.1 + 0.05)

It's apparent that it should be a flat 6.25% reduction in damage, on average. Who knows, maybe the formula is wrong, or bliz inadvertently included more with the change, or raid buffs and boss debuffs unexpectedly increase or decrease the nerfs. So raid logs are used to confirm the real world impact of the change.

That's not to say a dummy test is completely worthless. But without an extensive one (much more than 100 hits to allow for weapon damage RNG) to compare against pre-patch, with full logs available, no reliable conclusion can be drawn.

Dopameany · 05/22/11, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by knowname

STR>haste to GCD cap(17.647% by my math or 2260)>hit to spell cap(8%)>mastery>crit

What kinda math are you using for This haste GCD cap calculation? I assume this 2260 rating cap would change given UP and 2H yeah? Hard time finding how much haste I should be stacking before I swap to mastery.