The 4 piece on the other hand essentially adds higher value to crit as well as Killing Machine procs. This could quite possibly be the best set bonus Frost has ever gotten actually.
I napkin math'ed 2pc to be about 1% DPS and 4pc to be 3-3.5% DPS for frost, but only on single target, and only if the 4pc procs off white attacks, and only if it works a-la Ignite where the dot damage is placed in a "pool" which can grow larger if additional procs occur before it falls off. Oh, and only if you have max melee uptime on the target, and there's no adds to AOE.
I napkin math'ed 2pc to be about 1% DPS and 4pc to be 3-3.5% DPS for frost, but only on single target, and only if the 4pc procs off white attacks, and only if it works a-la Ignite where the dot damage is placed in a "pool" which can grow larger if additional procs occur before it falls off. Oh, and only if you have max melee uptime on the target, and there's no adds to AOE.
Both bonuses are extremely poor.
What are you basing that on? The 4pc is closer to 5-6% using those same assumptions, based on my own parses and about ten random top 100 V&T parses anyway.
What are you basing that on? The 4pc is closer to 5-6% using those same assumptions, based on my own parses and about ten random top 100 V&T parses anyway.
I mathed it by taking crits as % of total damage done, but over whole night raid parses of mine (sans trash) with multiple boss kills/wipes, because the highest parses will be the ones that had really good RNG on crits to begin with.
On a random top 10 V&T parse, I get 5.8%.
On our best Sinestra attempt (21% P3) I got 5%.
Over the entire raid night 3.8%
On my best chimaeron parse, 2.89% (can't use V&T as I had bugged runes when we pulled last week and we extended the lockout to focus sinestra this week)
I had varying results between 1.8 and 5% on assorted fights of my own and other random WoL parses I looked at, so concluded 3-3.5%. I also considered that we won't have the 2pc giving us 5% frost strike crit anymore, which I don't think will be fully made up for by having a bit more crit on our gear. But this bonus doesn't scale across multiple targets whatsoever in the way our current 4pc does, where it affects everything we do damage with including ghoul, dots or howling blast. The new 4pc just seems underwhelming.
15% is a big number assuming what is potentially eligible for the bonus (melee, oblit, frost strike)?
4 seconds is a very short period of time. there will be a minimal amount of munching involved with such a short duration.
i'm not sure that the value of crit will skyrocket as a result (b/c of munching potential), but it may create a bias towards 2h over dw to avoid munching. lower crit %s would probably favor dw for the same reasoning, to encourage more procs.
It won't trigger off melee hits, just FS/OB (and PS, I guess). I'm not really sure there's going to be significant munching because we don't have a really small ability (ie. FF) that can trigger the 2 piece. Maybe you might get some with a really big OB followed by a FS, but it probably won't be bad at all. At any rate, this seems to benefit Frost a LOT more than it does Unholy, so I think it'll be changed soon? =/
I'm using 2H with improved blood tap and virulence, mostly 359 and hit/expertise capped with 2283 haste, 614 mastery and 627 crit (probably less crit and more haste+mastery soon after I upgrade a few pieces)
I usually wait a few seconds for my obliterates when i proc killing machine like its recommended.
I have no idea why though that my obliterate is always around 38% of my damage while my frost strike is only at ~31 and my melee at 14.5 and howling blast at ~8.
I seem to follow the rotation near perfectly in my last few tries... I usually get all my bloodtaps perfectly just as both my death runes are out (sometimes to get a second one)...
I have no idea why my frost strike is so low when in the OP it says it should be slightly ahead of obliterate? Does anyone have obliterate first with a decent edge on FS?
Could it be related to something im not sure of: when i do my skills that can trigger KM s i usually wait a split second to see if KM proced before spamming FS asap? Is that bad?
Are you running with at least the t11 2 set bonus? I had a similar situation until I got the 5% crit to my Frost Strike that pulled it over my Obliterates.
Even with a near perfect rotation I still rarely see my frost strikes come out ahead on boss fights. Even on a fight where I ranked world first I believe at the very most Frost strike was dead even-1% behind obliterate. I believe that obviously rng plays a large factor, as you might not get very many FS crits outside of KM procs, and if you master using a large percentage of KM procs for Obliterates, it makes sense.
I mathed it by taking crits as % of total damage done, but over whole night raid parses of mine (sans trash) with multiple boss kills/wipes, because the highest parses will be the ones that had really good RNG on crits to begin with.
On a random top 10 V&T parse, I get 5.8%.
On our best Sinestra attempt (21% P3) I got 5%.
Over the entire raid night 3.8%
On my best chimaeron parse, 2.89% (can't use V&T as I had bugged runes when we pulled last week and we extended the lockout to focus sinestra this week)
I had varying results between 1.8 and 5% on assorted fights of my own and other random WoL parses I looked at, so concluded 3-3.5%. I also considered that we won't have the 2pc giving us 5% frost strike crit anymore, which I don't think will be fully made up for by having a bit more crit on our gear. But this bonus doesn't scale across multiple targets whatsoever in the way our current 4pc does, where it affects everything we do damage with including ghoul, dots or howling blast. The new 4pc just seems underwhelming.
You are selling it short. If we are mashing on howling blast and it isn't proccing, we probably already do fantastic damage on the fight. If we are going through a standard single target rotation, it is going to be at least twice as good as our current 4pc. The loss of 5% frost strike crit from t11 means slightly less contribution from frost strike, but more crit rating means slightly more contribution from obliterate, and we will be frost striking a little more due to the new 2pc. It gets even better if it is modified by Curse of the Elements and 3% damage buffs.
Additionally, Chimaeron is not the greatest fight for estimating the value--getting parried/missing during feud or while he is running around during mortality will kind of skew things. Even on fights with pretty heavy AE like Cho'gal, it would still be 2.5-3% damage, which is at least on par with the current 4pc.
1.) 146AP != 73 Strength All of our big multipliers (BoK, PoF, Plate Specialization) work on strength. 146AP is worth about 62 Strength when these are taken into account.
2.) Time is Money is multiplicative, not additive. Say you have 60% haste with rating/talents/buffs. The Goblin racial would then be worth about 205 haste rating. Time average in Heroism, and it's worth even more.
Also, at least for DW Frost, there are no 1H Strength axes. I'm sure the author did his due diligence with respect to the racials, you've just over-simplified the comparison.
Given the increased value of haste for frost spec with Unholy presence in 4.1, I am considering race-changing to Goblin for the added benefit of 205 haste (using math from quoted text). This should push my haste from 2010 to approximately 2215. Has anyone else made this transition? Goblins have always been listed #1 race for frost, and given the 4.1 change in stat weight (haste>mastery) this might bump me over the edge.
Finally, raiding DW frost spec with unholy presence stacking haste in 4.1 (current setup, see Armory), I have definitely have gaps in the rotation where I'm rune-starved. Why is everyone quoting 2200 - 2300 as a seemingly magical turning-point to remedy lack of runes for rotation? I'm not seeing the mathematical basis for this claim -- just individual's parse logs and "gut feelings."
It won't trigger off melee hits, just FS/OB (and PS, I guess). I'm not really sure there's going to be significant munching because we don't have a really small ability (ie. FF) that can trigger the 2 piece. Maybe you might get some with a really big OB followed by a FS, but it probably won't be bad at all. At any rate, this seems to benefit Frost a LOT more than it does Unholy, so I think it'll be changed soon? =/
how do you know it won't trigger off white melee crits? the world "abilities" is ambiguous enough to not be certain.
2pc has nothing to do with munching...
2 crits in a row won't affect munching at all.
best thing we can do atm is guess how 4pc will affect different specs based on different possibilities for how it will act. the current notion of the op is that dw = 2h so we can speculate whether the 4pc will push one above the other definitively.
Unless it's poorly worded because of the PTR, things like melee hits/attacks and abilities have had a distinct difference between them so far.
Sorry, I was referring to the 4 piece munching.
And yeah, sorry I was thinking wrongly about munching, but FF crits shouldn't trigger the 4 piece so that munching shouldn't happen. There will be an issue if your offhand OB/FS munches the mainhand though (if it works the same way spells do which I'm not sure about).
The tier 2 bonus seems pretty good actually. The current builds in the OP take one point into butchery, which can be removed and put into something else due to the 2pc. Having 1 point in butchery and having the 2pc seems like it would over cap RP at times.
The tier 2 bonus seems pretty good actually. The current builds in the OP take one point into butchery, which can be removed and put into something else due to the 2pc. Having 1 point in butchery and having the 2pc seems like it would over cap RP at times.
I agree. I would say the extra point in Butchery could go as a 3rd RPM for DW to maximize the 2pc's bonus. I've never been much of a fan of Butchery anyways. I'm very excited about the new tier set bonuses. I still have my doubts abou crit pushing ahead mastery/haste tho. Either way, assuming T12 isn't all hit/exp gear we should get it regardless. Free dps is free dps imo.
Hopefully not off-topic, but I have a question about Howling Blast on Omnotron Defense System.
Does the splash damage from this ability count as damage against barriers? If so, frost requires very careful play on this fight. Anybody managed to test this?
Hopefully not off-topic, but I have a question about Howling Blast on Omnotron Defense System.
Does the splash damage from this ability count as damage against barriers? If so, frost requires very careful play on this fight. Anybody managed to test this?
Yes, but normally you'll be tanking the constructs more than 10 yards away from each other. The only time that this isn't the case is during Shadow Conductor, i.e. 10 seconds out of every 2 minutes (assuming you guys don't just throw cooldowns on the other tank).
Now, heroic Nefarian, you will have to pay attention to HB usage for most of the fight, since a Stolen Power-boosted HB will probably kill someone that's MCed (or at least force them to break it early, causing the raid to lose DPS).
TL;DR - I think that the theorycrafting math favors taking Epidemic and Imp Blood Tap (IBT) over Virulence for single target dps. My experience in this spec over the course of two weeks has proven this to me. Single target's talent priorities should be (in order) Epidemic, IBT, Virulence (this spec); whereas AoE's priorities would become Virulence, IBT, Epidemic (this spec).
The basic argument is that the GCDs gained through using epidemic and IBT will equate to more DPS (and a smoother playstyle) over the long run. Take, for example, a seven minute fight. During the course of this fight, a DK without epidemic would have to recast outbreak (OtB) or plague strike (PS) 20 times to keep up BP on the target. A DK with epidemic will only have to cast OtB/PS 13 times. This means that the DK with epidemic effectively gained 7 Global Cooldowns (GCDs) and at least 3-4 runes that he didn't have to use casting PS. I'm confident that the math will always show these GCDs are always an increase in dps over the bonus damage gained from Virulence.
The second part of the argument follows the same lines: over a 7 minute fight, a DK will use Blood Tap (BT) as many as (but not necessarily exactly) 6 times to refresh a rune. Most of the time this will be used to activate Pillar of Frost or to hit a KM-proc Obliterate. The DK with IBT will use BT as many as 13 times. My argument here is that these BTs will smooth out rotations by providing an extra rune refresh every minute (assuming 1 is going to PoF). Once again, here are 7 extra GCDs that are gained through this talent, and once again the DPS from this increase favors IBT over virulence.
I calculated the dps gains at different AP amounts and compared the gains of GCDs used for Frost Strike (FS) with the gains from Virulence. Please note here that the extra GCDs could be used for Obliterates if the situation permits, in which case the DPS gains will be even higher than with FS. Please bear in mind that although I did my testing as a 2H spec, a DW spec with this setup should have similar results.
If it helps anyone, my current armory can be found here, and my most recent parses can be found here. I need help to double check me on the logic and math behind this, and confirm / deny using current sims (I have little experience with them) or parses.
Facts / Assumptions Frost Fever is calculated by the following formula:
FF = [(0.055*1.15*AP)+31]*[1+(0.02*Mastery)]*1.3
Dmg/tick = [(coefficient*1.15*atk pwr)+base dmg]*[mastery calculation]*[virulence bonus]
Blood Plague calculated as follows:
BP = [(0.055*1.15*AP)+38]*1.3
Dmg/tick = [(coefficient*1.15*atk pwr)+base dmg]*(virulence bonus)
Total dmg gained through virulence over a 33 second duration (epidemic):
Gain = [11(FF+BP)] - [(110/13)(FF+BP)] = (33/13)(FF+BP)
DPS gain from using virulence
DPS = (1/13)*(FF+BP) **(Please note that the DPS gain from virulence will be the same whether you have epidemic or not. The only difference is how many GCDs you gain through having epidemic)
Frost Strike can be calculated using the following formula:
FS = [((AP/14)*3.8)+248+(wpn dmg)]*[1+(0.02*Mastery)]*1.3
This can be calculated using a low end and top end damage, or by using an average of the weapon damage range.
I'm trying to wrap my head around this haste soft-cap idea... with a haste rating of approximately 1790 my runes are approximately at 8s regen (7.98 I believe). Is there any reason I wouldn't want to stack haste higher? Does aligning your rune regen time at 1s intervals to coincide w/ GCD do anything at all considering a good portion of our runes regen due to RE procs anyway? At a rating of around 2210 I'm looking at approximately 7.75 seconds of rune regen time, and I'm wondering what would be higher all around dps (fights w/ adds and simple single-target), because at 1790 haste (8s regen) I can push my mastery from 26% (approx) to 32% - which is quite substantial.
Just wondering if the "soft-cap" concept is valid (i.e. reaching a set value and then going mastery), or is the accepted best to stack as much haste as possible, with mastery as it comes.
Also, is this haste soft-cap defined as 1s intervals in UP? I.e. a soft-cap at 9s, 8s, 7s, etc rune regen time.
Thanks, just trying to clear up this concept - I notice a lot of high-end DKs (Clayden of Blood Legion/Illidan) - (Grief of vodka/alterac mountains) - don't seem to dump into as much haste as they can.
Blood 2 Pieces - Your melee attacks cause Burning Blood on your target, which deals 800 Fire damage every 2 for 6 sec and causes your abilities to behave as if you had 2 diseases present on the target.
I think we should keep an eye on it. For Frost it would save us 2 GCD's(even more if not specced into Epidemic) a minute instead of using Plague Strike or Outbreak which results in more Obliterates. While the dot ticks only for 800 Fire damage every 2 for 6 sec, we are yet not sure how this ignite effect works. If it stacks it could be impressive with DW. We must check how it works with the damage multiplier of Frost Presence and Nerves of Cold Steel. It would be interesting if it can surpass the damage loss of Blood Plague.
Blood 2 Pieces - Your melee attacks cause Burning Blood on your target, which deals 800 Fire damage every 2 for 6 sec and causes your abilities to behave as if you had 2 diseases present on the target.
I think we should keep an eye on it. For Frost it would save us 2 GCD's(even more if not specced into Epidemic) a minute instead of using Plague Strike or Outbreak which results in more Obliterates. While the dot ticks only for 800 Fire damage every 2 for 6 sec, we are yet not sure how this ignite effect works. If it stacks it could be impressive with DW. We must check how it works with the damage multiplier of Frost Presence and Nerves of Cold Steel. It would be interesting if it can surpass the damage loss of Blood Plague.
About that.
I was curious as to whether it'd stack with our own diseases or if it's either one or the other. If they for some reason do stack, that'd count as 4 diseases, which would make Obliterate hit 25% harder. I hardly doubt that's the case, though. Every Frost DK would be using tank gear.
The fire damage seems insignificant enough, so unless they itemize the tank gear exactly the way we want it, I believe DPS 4 pc would be an obvious choice. 2 GCDs a minute over 15% of Obliterate/Frost strike damage at a very high up-time? As Frost we get critical strikes a lot (about 15-25% KM procs + our melee crit rate), so the up-time on the fire debuff (DPS) would be high.
These are just speculations and thoughts, as since I have no math to back anything up yet.
I was curious as to whether it'd stack with our own diseases or if it's either one or the other. If they for some reason do stack, that'd count as 4 diseases, which would make Obliterate hit 25% harder. I hardly doubt that's the case, though. Every Frost DK would be using tank gear.
It surely wont be the case that it adds additional diseases to our own 2 diseases. What I was thinking if Frost Presence adds damage too Burning Blood like for example it adds to the proc of Darkmoon Hurrican. And also extra damage from the offhand from Nerves of Coldsteel. The old relict form naxxramas comes into my mind.
Originally Posted by Snob
The fire damage seems insignificant enough, so unless they itemize the tank gear exactly the way we want it, I believe DPS 4 pc would be an obvious choice. 2 GCDs a minute over 15% of Obliterate/Frost strike damage at a very high up-time? As Frost we get critical strikes a lot (about 15-25% KM procs + our melee crit rate), so the up-time on the fire debuff (DPS) would be high.
Some tanking pieces have high strength value so they wouldn't be too bad at all. If you can reforge avoidance for example for a preferable stat. But only time will tell and i'm going to make some tests on ptr as soon as it comes up. Also we are not sure if 4 piece DPS also works on Froststrike or only physical damage like Obliterate.
I'm rather doubtful the tank 2pc counts as two extra diseases on the target.
Losing the disease damage itself is also still a loss. I can't think of good reasons to not use outbreak, for one global the two full duration dots are worth more than a single obliterate is.
Originally Posted by Tehax
and we will be frost striking a little more due to the new 2pc. It gets even better if it is modified by Curse of the Elements and 3% damage buffs.
Additionally, Chimaeron is not the greatest fight for estimating the value--getting parried/missing during feud or while he is running around during mortality will kind of skew things. Even on fights with pretty heavy AE like Cho'gal, it would still be 2.5-3% damage, which is at least on par with the current 4pc.
It probably will be affected by those modifiers. It's just worth about 0.7-1% less if white attacks don't proc it, and because it only affects single targets, won't scale the way our current 4pc does, even if it's lackluster. Every time you have to be off the boss for something or have to AOE adds or whatever, the new 4pc is doing virtually nothing for us compared to the current one which has 100% uptime.
Hopefully not off-topic, but I have a question about Howling Blast on Omnotron Defense System.
Does the splash damage from this ability count as damage against barriers? If so, frost requires very careful play on this fight. Anybody managed to test this?
Yes, it does. It's a pain.
I don't know the name of the addon used by one of our officers to report the number of strikes against shields after each attempt, but with this week being my first time raiding frost since early wrath, my howling blasts featured quite prominently on it's output for the first couple of tries this week.
Given the relative leniency of the enrage timer it's probably best to let rime procs wait/rot if you're not 100% certain there's no risk of splashing onto a shielded robot.
Given the relative leniency of the enrage timer it's probably best to let rime procs wait/rot if you're not 100% certain there's no risk of splashing onto a shielded robot.
Obviously you'll use IT to refresh frost fever (ideally with a rime proc) if it's about to fall off your target while a shielded boss is too close by to safely HB and Outbreak is on cooldown.
Outside of that situation, given that you can hold on to your rime proc for 15 seconds it's fairly likely that the target boss will be moved or the shielded boss will go inactive within that time, so it's probably just as well to save it for when it becomes safe to use HB again. Damage from Icy Touch is so low that I'd assume it's only worth burning rime on if your proc is about to drop off and you have a free global with no runes or runic power whatsoever to spend.
05/05/11, 4:29 AM
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