Blood | DK endgame tanking [4.x] - Page 12

Tyvi · 08/23/11, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Otou

Yeah you living here was not thanks to lichborne's heal, all self healing is cut by 90% when a decimation blade hits you. It prevents death knights and paladins from having a ridiculous advantage.

You can get off one GCD's worth of self healing between Decimation Blades on 10 man though. His swing timer there is 5 seconds and the healing debuff lasts for 4. You still will only get a minimum DS heal anyway so I don't quite get why you think DKs would have a ridiculous advantage if there was no healing debuff at all.

iflassman · 08/23/11, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

You can get off one GCD's worth of self healing between Decimation Blades on 10 man though. His swing timer there is 5 seconds and the healing debuff lasts for 4. You still will only get a minimum DS heal anyway so I don't quite get why you think DKs would have a ridiculous advantage if there was no healing debuff at all.

I single tank this fight, and have done exactly this trick before to keep myself alive. In addition, Lichborne is useful before you take the decimating blade hit. Sometimes you find yourself at lower HP than you would like when decimating blade starts--usually because the healers are switching up. I feel much better knowing that I can top myself off without depending on anyone before that first blade hits.

Otou · 08/23/11, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

You can get off one GCD's worth of self healing between Decimation Blades on 10 man though. His swing timer there is 5 seconds and the healing debuff lasts for 4. You still will only get a minimum DS heal anyway so I don't quite get why you think DKs would have a ridiculous advantage if there was no healing debuff at all.

I haven't stepped into a 10 man on my dk since ICC was on split lock outs. So I honestly have no understanding of what goes on there, was thinking in accordance to 25's.

Without the healing de-buff we could ds right after decimating strike hits, and heal for 29% of the damage we took. The ability to self heal after "at least" every other decimating strike would be a serious advantage.

Tyvi · 08/23/11, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by Otou

Without the healing de-buff we could ds right after decimating strike hits, and heal for 29% of the damage we took. The ability to self heal after "at least" every other decimating strike would be a serious advantage.

You won't get that much healing. We already concluded earlier in the thread that you get the min heal only. Decimation Blade damage already ignores the Death Strike heal window just like fall damage and some other abilities do so noone really knows why the debuff is there to begin with. Was it really worth adding just for 1 self-LoH?

Asphyxialol · 08/23/11, 2:32 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

You can get off one GCD's worth of self healing between Decimation Blades on 10 man though. His swing timer there is 5 seconds and the healing debuff lasts for 4. You still will only get a minimum DS heal anyway so I don't quite get why you think DKs would have a ridiculous advantage if there was no healing debuff at all.

[23:30:36.324] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx 250000
[23:30:38.432] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Dodge
[23:30:40.828] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Parry
[23:30:43.277] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Parry
[23:30:46.007] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx 95496 (A: 180768)
[23:30:48.066] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Dodge
[23:32:11.279] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Dodge
[23:32:13.694] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Dodge
[23:32:16.105] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Dodge
[23:32:18.827] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx 188045 (A: 127685)
[23:32:21.364] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Absorb (315730)
[23:32:23.309] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Dodge
[23:34:34.408] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx 155613 (A: 160117)
[23:34:36.810] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx 140325 (A: 175405)
[23:34:38.992] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Parry
[23:34:41.797] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx 230249 (A: 124947)
[23:34:43.785] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx Parry
[23:34:46.577] Baleroc Decimating Strike Onslaughtx 146305 (A: 208892)

Heroic Baleroc, debuffs up 100% of the time, there is definitely not a 5s window here. There is a 2-2.8s window. You can help your healers out if you aren't topped off in that time frame, but realistically if you aren't topped off then it's probably the first decimation, or your healers are slacking.

Tyvi · 08/23/11, 3:50 PM

But that's a 25 man log, isn't it? The 5 second swing timer should be on 10 man only since you have less healers to work with there.

Otou · 08/23/11, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

You won't get that much healing. We already concluded earlier in the thread that you get the min heal only. Decimation Blade damage already ignores the Death Strike heal window just like fall damage and some other abilities do so noone really knows why the debuff is there to begin with. Was it really worth adding just for 1 self-LoH?

If that's the case, then it's probably a matter of insurance vs word of glory and rune tap. They've got a lot of risks to consider with self healing tanks on decimating strike, and they wanted to cement in that healing it is the healers job.

Asphyxialol · 08/23/11, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

But that's a 25 man log, isn't it? The 5 second swing timer should be on 10 man only since you have less healers to work with there.

That's fair. I did look over TTDs logs from last week and it is a 5s swing timer in 10m.

[22:51:56.723] Baleroc Decimating Strike Brokenone Dodge
[22:52:01.964] Baleroc Decimating Strike Brokenone 516132 (A: 48123)
[22:52:06.818] Baleroc Decimating Strike Brokenone 419396 (A: 144859)
[22:53:31.965] Baleroc Decimating Strike Brokenone Dodge
[22:53:36.770] Baleroc Decimating Strike Brokenone Dodge
[22:53:41.589] Baleroc Decimating Strike Brokenone Parry
[22:54:19.972] Baleroc Decimating Strike Brokenone 890898 (A: 38462)
[22:54:24.431] Baleroc Decimating Strike Brokenone Dodge
[22:54:29.695] Baleroc Decimating Strike Brokenone 914429 (A: 48123)

Nevinyrral · 08/24/11, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Otou

If that's the case, then it's probably a matter of insurance vs word of glory and rune tap. They've got a lot of risks to consider with self healing tanks on decimating strike, and they wanted to cement in that healing it is the healers job.

It's funny you say that because I have a parse where I out heal the healers.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

It is probably because of the messed up strat our healers came up with and worked for on normal. Also the majority of the "healing" is from blood shield. But given this I'd say the debuff is warranted. I actually never noticed until recently that there was a debuff during this phase because I normally dps the fight which means paying attention to shards instead of tank debuffs. I'll have to see if this week I can sit on a DS and see if there is a small gap that I can realistically fit in a DS in incase I am low health.

Asphyxialol · 08/24/11, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Nevinyrral

It's funny you say that because I have a parse where I out heal the healers.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

It is probably because of the messed up strat our healers came up with and worked for on normal. Also the majority of the "healing" is from blood shield. But given this I'd say the debuff is warranted. I actually never noticed until recently that there was a debuff during this phase because I normally dps the fight which means paying attention to shards instead of tank debuffs. I'll have to see if this week I can sit on a DS and see if there is a small gap that I can realistically fit in a DS in incase I am low health.

If you didn't outheal the healers on Baleroc I'd be concerned unless you utilize a strat where 1 specific person gets a high amount of stacks at the start and then just heals the tanks from then on.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Decimating Strike is the only part in the fight where your healing is limited, the rest of the fight, if you tank it, you should be doing on par or better than the healers in every case.

Nevinyrral · 08/24/11, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Asphyxialol

If you didn't outheal the healers on Baleroc I'd be concerned unless you utilize a strat where 1 specific person gets a high amount of stacks at the start and then just heals the tanks from then on.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Decimating Strike is the only part in the fight where your healing is limited, the rest of the fight, if you tank it, you should be doing on par or better than the healers in every case.

Eh our healers use an odd strat where they switch for healing every time someone new is eating a shard which I don't completely agree with. I also know some ten man strats involve having a dk eat pretty much an entire crystal at the start of the fight while both healers concentrate heals on them and the tank pops CDs. Not sure if this works since I tend to be tanking it now a days (our warrior tank seems to think that we are op and makes me tank most single tanked fights) and only recently read the strat for this so I haven't had the chance to try it. Also going over to two heals instead of three I wasn't quite ready to say it's the norm on ten man.

Tyvi · 08/24/11, 12:44 PM

Why are you even counting Blood Shields as proper healing done?

Nevinyrral · 08/24/11, 3:29 PM

The numbers are just how WoL handles the numbers. We did mention that a good part of it was from blood shield. I think I normally end up at 10k hps on that fight without absorbs. It was more a fun annotation of how we do good healing on that fight for my part. On the same token BS can be seen as over healing that is saved up for potential damage similar to the disc priest bubble. This really just depends on the paradigm you subscribe to and not really something to get hung up on.

Edit:
For those tanks working on or have done Heroic Alysrazor. Did you use strength flask, rune of the fallen crusader and a dps trinket?

Bart00 · 08/24/11, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by Nevinyrral

For those tanks working on or have done Heroic Alysrazor. Did you use strength flask, rune of the fallen crusader and a dps trinket?

I only change the trinkets, I use Heart of Rage (heroic) and Essence from rep, and sometimes I use a strength potion on the "second phase" (after she gets down and flies up again for the first time).

I would use fallen crusader but I only have one weapon so I don't really bother, as for flask if I was DPS in another fight and I have it on me I use it, otherwise I just go with stamina, don't have much problems taking the adds down in time, just be sure you make full use of the DS glyph and you should be fine.

ps: I'm on 10m, no idea about 25m

Ramalama · 08/24/11, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Nevinyrral

For those tanks working on or have done Heroic Alysrazor. Did you use strength flask, rune of the fallen crusader and a dps trinket?

You should switch to Fallen Crusader and swap trinkets for hit and exp soft cap. Beyond that, str buffs/gear are minor percentage gains because so much of your AP comes from Vengeance. License to Slay and Heart of Rage are easily obtainable trinkets to improve your hit/exp.