Blood | DK endgame tanking [4.x] - Page 28

Pintofbrew · 10/20/11, 5:30 AM

From what I've noticed, all the "horrific" weapons are a copy-paste of gear from the firelands (see graphics and item types) with stats partially amended. I think the pass is half-done and they're not nearly finished tuning anything.

The fact remains, however, that our weapon will end up being the one with either crummy secondary stats or a useless DPS proc. Now that Hit and Exp truly don't do jack shit for tanking it's absolutely inevitable we waste at least 300 stats on something accademic. Unless it's haste, in which case it's still bad, it's just not useless.

JackTheLad · 10/20/11, 7:26 AM

-delete pls-

JackTheLad · 10/20/11, 7:28 AM

Originally Posted by CodeNameSly

I think it's a bit premature to start lamenting how bad the 2H proc is. It could easily boost defensive skills as well as providing an offensive boost.

I've been wondering if a DK can Death Pact it as well...

Otou · 10/20/11, 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

The fact remains, however, that our weapon will end up being the one with either crummy secondary stats or a useless DPS proc. Now that Hit and Exp truly don't do jack shit for tanking it's absolutely inevitable we waste at least 300 stats on something accademic. Unless it's haste, in which case it's still bad, it's just not useless.

I wouldn't throw hit and expertise down as "uselsss" just because death strike will always heal now. Since you'll loose your runes, reguardless of wether death strike lands, lack of exp/hit is a pretty significant tank dps hit. Look down on tank dps if you'd like, but a difference of 4k~ dps thanks to avoiding accuracy stats is a noticeable loss. The only weapon stat we should look at and frown upon is crit.

As far as the 2 handed deathwing sword, the proc will probably be similar to [Vanquished Tentacle of C'Thun] and [Vanquished Clutches of Yogg-Saron]. Most likely it will summon a tentacle that melees/casts for a few seconds. We can always remain hopefull that it'll be some kind of guardian that provides a bonus to your highest stat, or casts a drain life type spell that heals the master I suppose.

Pintofbrew · 10/21/11, 5:13 AM

I will look down on Tank DPS. I deplore it's existence and I disagree that it's anything to do with our role, particularly in this time that we're on the verge of every tank turning into an active one. Our role is Tanking and while we happen to output damage during it, Surviving efficiently and effectively is still number one priority. With the exception of bullshit gimmick fights like Alys our DPS has never been an issue, and with the incoming RDPS changes (firstly the abundance of legendaries and the impending 10% melee buff) I'll be happy to wager swapping one non-legendary caster for a melee will do a hell of a lot more difference in RDPS than us wasting 350 stats on Hit and 350 stats on Exp.

Yörgle · 10/21/11, 5:39 AM

Thoughts about the validity of Blood Worms :

While we're all waiting for the 4.3 changes to be announced, I'd like to discuss a bit about the Blood Worms talent as, after a few month, I begin to question its interest.
Basically, there are two specs usually used by players : the one with Bladed Armor, and the one where those three points are put in RP-generation talents in order to increase slightly the survivability. But basically, the worms seems not to have been questioned since early Cata.

However, if you browse logs from your raids, you'll see something like that : World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Basically, every logs I checked, I saw that : Bloodworms not healing for a huge amount and, more important with a huge overheal (always between 80 and 90%). In the best scenario, the worms effectively heal for the equivalent of one health bar over a raid, and I doubt that what they provide is a big survival up.

So why not get rid of these two points and having the benefit of the BA spec and the "RP-generation" spec ? That would mean having the kind of talent tree : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
The reason I chose CS 2/2 over Butchery 2/2 (or 1/2 x 2) is that this talent provides more RP/min that Butchery (as seen on pwnwear, and I don't think any change make this post irrelevant even if it's old ^^), and as BB is going to be passive we don't have to worry about CS proc ruining the use of Blood Boil to refresh BB. We could also go 2/2 x 2 as well, and just leave 1 point in BA in order to go full RP-generation in a survival goal.
We also could choose Abom's Might, but 2% strength currently gives around 0.12% parry (before DR) and I doubt it's better than 50RP/min (eventhough I didn't make the maths, to be honnest).

Endless winter spec still useful ?

I wonder about the validity of this spec in the original post. In Firelands, we don't have to kick anything, and for the 4.3, I don't think there's any boss for the moment that require the tank to actively kick. (Like Maloriakk used to, for example)
Therefore, I'd rarther see this talent suggested in the list under the talent trees, like Desecration or Abom's Might are, to let know the reader that it can be useful but only in very specific cases.

The reason I'm not MPing this to Gravity is that I'm not sure about CS and 4.3, so I could use your opinions on the matter, fellow DKs.

Glyph of DS or HS for 4.3 ?

That's not a major issue, but I'm wondering which glyph will be more useful for the third slot (in addition to DC and RS that are, in my opinion, must-have glyphs). Currently, I feel that, due to the DS buff and the fact that we often/sometimes (depending on the player and the encounter ^^) use Blood Boil to refreshBB, glyph of DS is the good choice.
But when the 4.3 kicks in, we'll have the following behaviour happening in raid : we'll all reforge all our expertise away and when we won't land a DS, the runes will still be consumed. However, a HS not landing will refund the runes therefore there will be less waste in DPS regarding this ability (and as BB will be passive, we won't Blood Boil to refresh it anymore).

Wakez · 10/21/11, 5:56 AM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

I will look down on Tank DPS. I deplore it's existence and I disagree that it's anything to do with our role, particularly in this time that we're on the verge of every tank turning into an active one. Our role is Tanking and while we happen to output damage during it, Surviving efficiently and effectively is still number one priority. With the exception of bullshit gimmick fights like Alys our DPS has never been an issue, and with the incoming RDPS changes (firstly the abundance of legendaries and the impending 10% melee buff) I'll be happy to wager swapping one non-legendary caster for a melee will do a hell of a lot more difference in RDPS than us wasting 350 stats on Hit and 350 stats on Exp.

I have to disagree here.
Looking back at Firelands progression, I can say without a doubt that DPS has never mattered more, tank DPS included. Dropping several healers just to meet specific DPS requirements or tanks wearing a few DPS items wasn't uncommon and proves how valuable every bit of DPS is during progress. Before all the nerfs, specifically to Rag, meeting the DPS required to make two meteors by the transition would make the encounter significantly easier in the last phase.

Tank DPS definitely matters and always will to some extent. What's important is knowing when and how you can balance it against your own survivability.

huntcaudata · 10/22/11, 12:24 AM

The new preliminary DK talent trees for 5.0 are extremely disappointing.
MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft - Class Talent Systems Panel
Obviously these are to be taken with a grain of salt. But, while every other class has talent trees loaded with utility abilities or new cooldowns, Blood is apparently to be made to choose between Death Pact and Vampiric Blood, Runic Empowerment and Blood Tap, Lichborne and Bone shield (and thereby forego the opportunity to get cooldown in AMZ). Apparently they're just taking away tools.

Asphyxialol · 10/22/11, 12:38 AM

It's too early to say anything about the trees. These are preliminary, and all of those tools are available to each DK. Until we know what the changes are as a whole for DKs in 5.0 we shouldn't make assumptions about our status or the status of our trees.

Pintofbrew · 10/22/11, 4:30 AM

Quite, let's please keep this thread clear of any discussion past Cata, it will only derail if we start discussing pre-alpha builds from blizzcon.

Nevinyrral · 10/22/11, 8:58 AM

Saying tank dps isn't important is like saying peanut butter is not vital to a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

How many 1% wipe have you had where the make our break could have been you landing more consistently throughout the fight. I'm not saying that you should ALWAYS pick up hit/exp to get more dps but if it comes down to it and you can give up that slight amount of survivability to get that kill then you best be going to the reforger.

The really issue really isn't that fact that missing means slightly less dps cause you lose a GCD, it that you lose 2 runes that won't be up again for 8 seconds. So we lost our dps gcd and instead of trying again with the runes, they are gone and we can use more resources to try to do the same thing or we have to do something else. It's dumb and I hate it. I would rather miss and try again then get a heal no matter what. The change is a retarded band-aid fix to something that wasn't the issue imo. It's not that we missed, it was that we had times where we just couldn't do anything because we had no runes. Here is a great idea, instead of having runes to spread out by RNG lets make people spend them so fast they have even more openings. A good DK will get past this but for the class as a whole it just makes it that much harder for someone to pick up and run with.

edit: mind the sarcasm I'm still a little pissed from looking at the "proposed" talent tier system but I'll save those comments for another time.

Tyvi · 10/22/11, 4:56 PM

Death Knight tanks are bad right now, stats and talents need some changes. Set bonus is based on us being at low health, which shouldn't happen. What changes will fix these problems?
Death Knights get some love in 4.3 to fix survivability, Blood presence armor bonus is going to 55% from 30%. We don't want Death Knights to get killed in one GCD, but we don't want them to be the best tank by far

From the Q&A panel. That change looks pretty good on paper but we'll have to see how it works out on the PTR (which I assume they will patch in there soon).

Vman1987 · 10/22/11, 5:41 PM

The change is nice around 6k or so armor for me. Defiantly going to help but doesn't do a grate deal to help the spiky damage intake.

We will have armor on-par with warriors, paladins but they will still take 30%+ less damage at all times when CTC caped. Also they will still have raid cooldowns so we are still bottom of the pile just not by as much as we are now.

I still think the Bone shield change where it doesn't use a charge unless you hit below x% hp and having less charges to compensate would be nice.

Still some testing on PTR to go, the armor buff was not live when i last checked (1h ago). Hopefully they will put this up on the PTR soon after Blizzcon.

At least they totally agree with the DK community now that we can (or could) get 1,2 or 3 shot and are doing something to solve this. and also in 5.0 we get a raid cooldown (AMZ) sort of if we sacrifice something else.

I don't think the problem is really us after these changes go live, I think its CTC tanks being to strong.

Yörgle · 10/22/11, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Vman1987

We will have armor on-par with warriors, paladins but they will still take 30%+ less damage at all times when block caped. Also they will still have raid cooldowns so we are still bottom of the pile just not by as much as we are now.

I don't think the problem is really us after these changes I think its CTC tanks being to strong that's the issue.

As long as we are not two-shot (as we are currently in 4.3 it seems), it doesn't matter : we'll be able to effectively heal and shield ourselves.

Can't wait to see how this buff affect our burst-vulnerability.

Nevinyrral · 10/22/11, 6:06 PM

Pretty sure to get AMZ you have to give up bone shield. Also, as state it was only absorbing like 11k (obviously not set in stone). It'll be a decent personal CD maybe but a raid CD it is not. Hopefully we'll see that.

As for the whole spike damage. I agree, it doesn't change our Blood Shield coverage, it gets eaten up too fast and without faster rune regen we cannot keep it up forever. It will however be...a little less spikey? However, Also, how would people feel about an ability change?'

Heart strike: Chance on hit to restore a boneshield charge.