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10/10/11, 9:59 AM
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#211
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Glass Joe
Human Death Knight
Lightbringer
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This post is regarding trinkets. I just SC'd my character profile swapping out EoEF, VOA, and LTS with bis normal gear. The EoEF simmed at 30842, VOA 30830, and LTS 30784. While the dps difference is absolutely minimal the point is VOA normal for the normal bis list is wrong and should be swapped to EoEF under the assumption 5/31/5 is the "premier" frost spec now. Also under the assumption that for normal bis that heroic crushing weight is unobtainable since AC heroic is one of the hardest bosses in the game currently.
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10/11/11, 5:57 PM
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#212
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Great Tiger
Troll Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by thelordymir
Is there any shadowcraft like site for DKs to plug in or do we still use Rawr? I havnt used a simulator in a long time honestly.
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Unfortunately no. DPS DKs have been without a reliable sim tool ever since Kahories stopped getting updated. Simcraft is in line to get some bug fixes soon that might finally make it viable, however (a correction in Rime proc rate, a more accurate rune simulation, and a fix for a peculiar bug with crit that made it increase damage by a % along with crit %).
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Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh.
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10/11/11, 6:48 PM
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#213
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Von Kaiser
Orc Death Knight
Frostwolf
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Originally Posted by kow
Where has this happened? I see some discussion on inflection points at 66% and 122% (I assume that's supposed to be 132%?), but I'm not sure I understand the mechanics behind haste losing value after these points - the whole point of the buffer rune instead of independent runes was that you have a grace period where you aren't losing dps while your runes are up.
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Don't know why my quote keeps going back to your first (unedited) comment.
I'm not asking where has it happened that an inflection point for haste (or mastery) has occurred which would indicate a switch to FP, I'm asking at what point might it occur? I doubt for either it's even remotely close to anything T13 would bring us, but I'm curious if anyone has an idea what haste rating in particular would leave us so gcd-locked that FP would be a dps increase.
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10/11/11, 7:23 PM
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#214
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Death Knight
Blackrock
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Originally Posted by Hinenuitepo
Don't know why my quote keeps going back to your first (unedited) comment.
I'm not asking where has it happened that an inflection point for haste (or mastery) has occurred which would indicate a switch to FP, I'm asking at what point might it occur? I doubt for either it's even remotely close to anything T13 would bring us, but I'm curious if anyone has an idea what haste rating in particular would leave us so gcd-locked that FP would be a dps increase.
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Sorry, it came off wrong, but I'm wondering the same, and I don't think GCDs really factor into anything as inflection points because there's no reason they should since the amount of a rune you regenerate in between GCDs compounds with each rune you regen/spend as long as you're not capped.
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10/12/11, 3:30 AM
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#215
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Kaejin
Unfortunately no. DPS DKs have been without a reliable sim tool ever since Kahories stopped getting updated. Simcraft is in line to get some bug fixes soon that might finally make it viable, however (a correction in Rime proc rate, a more accurate rune simulation, and a fix for a peculiar bug with crit that made it increase damage by a % along with crit %).
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SimulationCraft is always looking for more Dev's to improve its class modules and/or BiS reports, or just more bug reports & suggestions for it. Even though you're right that not all modules always include the newest theorycraft findings in a timeline manner, we think that it would still be a lot more efficient for a class community without a actively developed cataclysm spreadsheet to adapt to simc and bring its class module to near perfection, like to some degree the warlock and priests communities have done.
About your mentioned bugs:
Rime should be fixed in Issue 876 - simulationcraft - Frost DK Rime Spell proccing 2x more than expected in DW - World of Warcraft DPS Simulator - Google Project Hosting
Work is being done on Razorice Rune right now
And it would be great if you could show where a crit% increase also increases base damage.
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10/12/11, 5:42 AM
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#216
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Von Kaiser
Worgen Death Knight
Alonsus (EU)
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Indeed, in all my sims this morning Rime seems to be proccing at ~equal rates between Dual Wield and 2 Hand. Certainly not the massively inflated numbers of before.
Simulations using my own gear and swapping 2x HC Cleavers, Rag Mace HC, Greataxe HC I see results of 32k, 31k and 30k respectively. (Spec and reforging is of course also altered to best suit the weapon changes)
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10/12/11, 11:41 AM
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#217
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Piston Honda
Draenei Death Knight
Medivh
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I was trying something different and was throwing DnD into my single target rotation on H Shannox just to see what would happen since it isn't really an option to use in any simulators.
DnD had 66 tics on Shannox, but I'm not sure if that is because DnD is hitting 11x per cast or if it was because of boss movement (I usually tried to drop it on him after he had been repositioned after getting his spear back). 6 casts would of been a minimum of 3 minute fight length and 7 would of been 3.5 minutes of fight length.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
I'm curious if there is some opportunity cost I'm losing out on for squeezing DnD into my single target rotation for bosses without an absurd amount of movement. From my H Shannox report DnD is doing 22k per cast if it is 6 casts during the fight and 20.1k per cast if it is 7 casts. Obviously for any fight that is boss+1, it is a winner (aren't many of those in FL except Rhyolith legs).
I've got a slightly heavier mastery vs haste priority (2H), so I'm wondering if that is skewing DnD + HB to be greater than OB since I'm not as GCD capped as someone with 600+ more haste rating than me.
Edit: I just checked my debuffs (which tracks DnD casts) and it seems that I cast it 6 times during the fight. So DnD is getting 11 tics but I'm not sure if that is because of haste or because of a bugged 11th tic.
Last edited by EwokChilli : 10/12/11 at 11:50 AM.
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10/12/11, 11:44 AM
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#218
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Hinenuitepo
Additionally, I'm curious as to why you aren't using LtS, as it's (probably) better than all three of these. Personally, I prefer the EotEF and LtS, but you certainly could use AoK with LtS - which would probably be better than any combination of the three you mention above.
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Sorry to feed the trinket debate but I'm in an equally confusing scenario and can't decide which configuration is optimal, either based on personal calculations and a lot of discussion but no finite conclusions. My parses for what trinkets I do have in differing configurations are inconclusive and the added complication of the engineering glove tinker affecting the ability to line up on-use trinkets is making it even more difficult to draw my own conclusions.
Currently I'm using HoR reg with VoA reg which at one point seemed to be the best configuration I had available, and I doubt we'll be returning to H Chimaeron for H HoR while we focus on H FL progression.
At this point, these are what I have available:
1. Vessel of Acceleration reg
2. Heart of Rage reg
3. Essence of the Eternal Flame
4. Apparatus of Khaz'goroth available in guild bank
Are any of you engineers facing a similar situation? I'm curious to see what could be my best configuration while working on hardmode near-enrage kills and 1% wipes, and if AoK is worth the bank withdrawal. I've had no luck even seeing a Crystallized Firestone drop either after a handful of heroic kills. Understandably I don't want to bind AoK to my character for what could be a failed experiment and am hoping that someone has had a chance to draw conclusions. Should I obtain a Firestone, I'm assuming 391 AoK is the way to go, but only once my 1-handers have been upped to 391 at that.
Thanks for any insight!
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10/12/11, 4:45 PM
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#219
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Von Kaiser
Orc Death Knight
Frostwolf
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Originally Posted by kow
Sorry, it came off wrong, but I'm wondering the same, and I don't think GCDs really factor into anything as inflection points because there's no reason they should since the amount of a rune you regenerate in between GCDs compounds with each rune you regen/spend as long as you're not capped.
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I should have said 'resource-abundant' I suppose.
I've been wondering this since Cata came out, but it probably isn't a real-life concern even in T13. Not that I want to do anything in FP myself anyway. I like the side benefit of run speed along with UP being the 'best' dps presence. I'd be (mildly) annoyed to go back to run speed boot enchants.
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10/12/11, 7:47 PM
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#220
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Hinenuitepo
As to Azz' question, I am a big fan of lining up the buffs, which is more difficult but not impossible with Apparatus and hence why I preferred Essence. Probably VoA or HoR with EotEF would be my choice.
Once you start clearing more than one or two heroic bosses, you'll start to see more firestones. It's been a few weeks since we haven't seen one.
On the other hand, There's NO way I'd use my firestone on Apparatus when using it on a Cleaver is so much more of a dps upgrade: get two, upgrade your weapons, and then re-evaluate where you're at with trinkets at that point (hint: probably won't happen).
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Thanks for the input, but the problem with that is that Synapse Springs put a 10-second CD (its duration per min) on EotEF, making it impossible to line up the on-use of both the tinker and the trinket simultaneously. Without the tinker it's easier to make choices. While it's only 480 str, having it line up with PoF, etc. once a minute it adds up. From what I've read though, Apparatus does not suffer the same CD from Springs seeing as the latter affects Strength, and the former Haste. I remember reading it in the previous version of this thread that has been closed, and many suspected it would be hotfixed. I haven't seen any update since but I may have missed it. There was some discussion about Springs with AoK being a good match, but factor in the orc racial, and another on-use... it gets difficult to maximize uptime properly. Given this context VoA could be paired well as it's one less thing to worry about.
So, with that reasoning, if an engineer, I'm leaning towards VoA and AoK with Synapse Springs, IF all can be used simultaneously given AoK lines up at the right time. There's a definite RNG factor involved, but I think that having the possibility of having all tinkers and trinkets used at the same time could really give the most burst when needed (last phase of H Rhyo, for example)
EDIT: Yes, I agree entirely about upgrading weapons > trinket which I said earlier, but maybe not clearly enough.
Last edited by Azzkikkrr : 10/12/11 at 8:02 PM.
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10/13/11, 1:14 AM
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#221
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Piston Honda
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I find that even with high levels of haste, you can still run into dead gaps in your rotation. I like AoK as a buffer for a time when BL isn't up, you don't have as many runes/RP as you would like but you have your CDs up. I'm currently using EotEF with AoK and it's great because it's a mini BL with CDs. You can even use AoK with BL on a really short burn phase like Rhyo or Alys when she's burned out and basically have KM permanently up while you happily Obliterate away.
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10/13/11, 8:28 PM
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#223
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Piston Honda
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It becomes better during specific situations, either being used to reverse awful RNG leaving you resource starved, or being used when procs/pof line up to provide more KM procs and damage that line up with those. It can also be refrained from being used during bloodlust so that the additional haste isn't wasted, and it can be used alongside the engineering tinker making it preferrable to engineers. Not to mention that the heroic version has quite a lot more static strength than H:CW does.
Its major drawback is it's difficult if not impossible to use right on the pull, as the rampup time for the stacks would usually have it available to use 10-30 seconds after combat starts, and delaying usage of PoF would be a DPS loss there. However on the initial pull, you're not really resource-starved, so the extra rune regen the haste gives you there isn't a massive advantage unless you get poor RE procs.
On pulls where you wait to use PoF until HoR and FC are up (to get the most out of the percentage modifier), you may be lucky and have 4-5 stacks at that point so using it would unquestioningly be a DPS gain in such a situation. I think the trinket is difficult for the sim to model, but I believe it to be the best option we currently have. Its interaction with next tier's 4pc may change that (if the mastery proc gives you more mastery than haste, causing AoK to proc mastery instead) but that's a ways off.
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10/18/11, 6:47 AM
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#224
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::stare::
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I just ripped out about 9 posts resulting from "What trinket should I use?" Most of you have been around awhile and should know we don't do gear help here. Please just report the person, you can feel free to help them through PM, but a raid discussion thread is not the place for gear help 101.
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<Nite_Moogle> i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.
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10/18/11, 10:14 PM
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#225
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Glass Joe
Undead Death Knight
Echo Isles
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Originally Posted by Liaka
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Apparatus is on a two minute cooldown, Pillar of Frost is on a one minute cooldown, it shouldn't be hard at all to line them up. It has a huge strength advantage on Crushing Weight, as well as the fact that you can control it's usage to line up with PoF. It'll beat out Vessel simply because they're strength levels are close enough that the extra strength the Vessel gives does not outdistance the amount of DPS you lose from switching the secondary stat from Haste to Crit.
Last edited by Yrale : 10/20/11 at 11:39 PM.
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