Frost DPS | Winter of Discontent [4.3] - Page 18

CortDK · 11/30/11, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Titus Pullo

SimulationCraft seems to be simming 2H frost rather poorly (ie. ~10k dps under DW) so anything related to it is not to be trusted for now

Did you submit a bug ticket for your 10k dps loss findings? Can you provide the profile you used to get such terrible results?

I ask because in my own tests it seems to be working as expected (using the development build), as you can see here:

Personally I don't really care to test 2h frost. It's a dead spec. But if you want accurate results on the OP and claim the sim is at fault please provide the profile you used to test either here or as an issue ticket so it can be verified and fixed if necessary.

Titus Pullo · 11/30/11, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by CortDK

Did you submit a bug ticket for your 10k dps loss findings? Can you provide the profile you used to get such terrible results?

I ask because in my own tests it seems to be working as expected (using the development build), as you can see here:

Personally I don't really care to test 2h frost. It's a dead spec. But if you want accurate results on the OP and claim the sim is at fault please provide the profile you used to test either here or as an issue ticket so it can be verified and fixed if necessary.

I know 2h is rather dead at this point but it's a possible/supported spec so I feel it needs to be covered. I was getting similar results to yours running t12 sims but my 2h t13 was coming out about 35k which surprised me being such an insignificant change from t12. Being at work I don't have the profile right now so I'll look it over tonight to make sure I haven't mixed up some inputs and submit the bug ticket. Souldrinkers should be in the BiS in a few minutes.

Uspoonybard · 11/30/11, 11:34 AM

@armsaun Well all melee got a 10% AP buff, I was experiencing the same thing, I saw my numbers jump from low 30s to high 30s-low 40s.

rh8452 · 11/30/11, 4:59 PM

One very tiny change I've noticed - Dark Command no longer procs runeforges when used (at least Razorice). This isn't very significant other than no longer being able to use this ability to complete very low level quests which required you to damage a mob below a certain health percentage to capture/do something to it, since said mob usually had so little health that any rune ability would one-shot it.

However, this does mean no more taunting things like Arm Tentacles or Spiderlings to stack Razorice that tiny bit faster, or maintaining your RI stack from a distance.

Stu · 11/30/11, 5:04 PM

After running a couple sims, i discovered that at least in BiS armor, the Normal Souldrinker, is superior to the Heroic Hand of Morchok.

Now my skills with simming are somewhat basic when it comes to doing small comparisons like this, but i was wondering if anyone could confirm or crush the finding that Normal Souldrinker is a better choice than heroic Hand of Morchok.

CortDK · 11/30/11, 10:20 PM

In my tests also, in T12H bis gear normal [Souldrinker] is ever so slightly better than heroic [Hand of Morchok]. And the raidfinder [Souldrinker] is better than the normal [Hand of Morchok]. (i took care to maintain hit cap, and put an epic 50 str gem in the Morchoks)

And given the proc is based on your health pool and T13 gear gives a gradual health pool upgrade (about 20k T12H bis to T13H bis) that gap will widen the more T13 gear you have.

That is assuming the proc rate is indeed 15% (which is should be, that was datamined from the in game spell data),and has no ITC (which similar items in the past have not had). -confirmed by Taiyoken.

Originally Posted by Titus Pullo

my 2h t13 was coming out about 35k which surprised me being such an insignificant change from t12. Being at work I don't have the profile right now so I'll look it over tonight to make sure I haven't mixed up some inputs and submit the bug ticket.

I suspect you left something major out. Maybe the talent line change?

I ran a very quick test and get the following:

As for haste, 2h generates a lot of extra RP and depending on the action priority haste caps out very early. You can see that indicated broadly in the waiting time line in the output, and more specifically in the resources section with wasted RP and rune regeneration. If you run with a single iteration you can see it in the RP timeline. In fact even with a heavy mastery reforge (1300 haste) waiting time was only at around 3%. The T13 2pc bonus would have further devalued haste for 2h (and 1h for that matter).

That may or may not be a bug; it has been a very long time since I tested 2h in game. But with the current action priority list for maximum dps RP capping is avoided most of the time, which increased dps but reduced the point at which haste becomes less valuable than mastery.

These are the timelines for RP for 1h and 2h (1 iteration). The 2h has only 1300 haste. This is why your haste values for 2h are coming out so low.

Taiyoken · 11/30/11, 11:35 PM

I just picked up Souldrinker and it is indeed around 15%, 3.46 PPM at 2.6 weapon speed. The proc seems to be incapable of critting as I tried it with melee crit/no spell crit and no melee crit/spell crit.

The proc is around 1-1.5% of your total damage from dummy tests. I'll post some more results when we do FL later in the week.

e: There is also no ITC because I've seen it proc right after itself.

Vereesa · 12/01/11, 12:52 AM

Much to my dismay, 4.3 nerfed Apparatus. (quite heavily I'd say) It now puts all other trinkets (including the engineering tinker) on a 20 second cooldown, making it far less valuable to engineers and people that are using another usable trinket alongside with it. How does the AoK now compare to other trinkets?

Syk · 12/01/11, 5:29 AM

hi, so u mean that shadowfrost is better than dw frost?
do the same rotation but if u have low resources spam 2 hb and fs instead of obliterate?

CortDK · 12/01/11, 5:44 AM

It's not shadowfrost. Needs a different name. The priority I detailed is better dps, yes.

And yes, Even if you just do it a little bit when resource starved it is a dps increase. Just don't let your unholy runes cap, or waste too many KM procs.

Tholofonos · 12/01/11, 7:36 AM

Since there is no shadow component to this priority system's credit, and you spot its users by their reforging to mastery instead of haste, I hereby propose "masterfrost" as its shorthand.

This isn't quite theory, but it's very relevant to the thread's aims: How does one go about breaking bad habits of play? I catch myself Obliterating past Rime procs, doing a bunch of FS in a row and not stopping when I hit Obliterate runes, overcapping my runic when I'm not supposed to... it's sloppy. I've tried spending some time on the dummy, but the details of the priority system I should be following (I try to follow the haste/obliterate with hb filler priority system, as found in the simcraft playstyle comparison) just fly out of my head and I revert to reflex pretty quickly, which is the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish. Given that we hope to be pushing into heroics without farming normal mode, anything I can do to improve my performance without acquiring gear is to be treasured. What have you folks done to retrain yourself, either to learn a new rotation or to perfect an old one?

Acediar · 12/01/11, 7:43 AM

Considering how strong Souldrinkers proc seems to be somebody should consider including Stamina in the stat weights.
The value should be rather low (around 0.035 if I am not mistaken) and a Str/Sta shouldn't be above a Str/Hit gem but it could be interesting to check.

CortDK · 12/01/11, 8:04 AM

simulationcraft won't do stamina yet for stat weights. I'm getting it added in, but the maths should be very easy from the sim output for the ability.

CortDK · 12/01/11, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by Tholofonos

Since there is no shadow component to this priority system's credit, and you spot its users by their reforging to mastery instead of haste, I hereby propose "masterfrost" as its shorthand.

...How does one go about breaking bad habits of play?

I like masterfrost.

AS for breaking the habit I've found it easy to start on using HB as a filler. That is, when you are in the easy part of your rotation with low resources, just start using HB a lot more and only OBL when you are at around 1.5 unholy runes. Get used to that first so It's a good habit. Then start using OBL when you have 3 or more full runes (ie you won't get an RE proc). Once comfortable with that work on the finer points. I'd also run with around 2000 haste (give or take 100) while changing habits.

Kurg · 12/01/11, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by Taiyoken

I just picked up Souldrinker and it is indeed around 15%, 3.46 PPM at 2.6 weapon speed. The proc seems to be incapable of critting as I tried it with melee crit/no spell crit and no melee crit/spell crit.

The proc is around 1-1.5% of your total damage from dummy tests. I'll post some more results when we do FL later in the week.

e: There is also no ITC because I've seen it proc right after itself.

Can you post a combat log or something similar? No one I know has one yet, but if you are only getting 3.46ppm Souldrinker shouldn't beat Hand of Morchok. My math suggested 6ppm was required to beat Morchok, 7ppm would put it significantly ahead, but with a 15% proc rate I would expect it to have much more than ~3.5ppm.