Do you have any proof of this? A log indicating this or anything of that nature?

Hey. I have a question regarding Pillar of Frost usage. I searched through the thread and didn't find it being discussed before, and I haven't found a smart way to check via simming.

After playing somewhat lot with Frost, I've noticed that I tend to hit spots where PoF comes off cooldown when I have most of my runes still recharging, meaning that I'd have to wait a few seconds doing nothing to get Obliterating. What my question is is this: When such a situation happens, is it better to wait for runes to fully recharge before popping PoF to get the optimal OB - OB - BT - OB burst or should I just pop PoF and Ob as I get runes? RE tends to make that decision a bit woozy at times since the rune activation is random.

Playing a somewhat standard Hastefrost btw.

You can fill up with Horn, Raise Dead, then PoF and continue. So yes, it's probably a waste to hit PoF then have 2-3 empty GCD's but on the other hand you don't want to delay it too much as well (unless ofcourse you're waiting for a burn phase).

Unless something has changed, it seems like this is incorrect, as I would never intentionally cast Raise Dead before a PoF. You're just gimping your DPS by not giving your ghoul that extra 20% strength when he "snapshots" your stats.

You are totally correct I wasn't thinking straight, it's worth mentioning though that you can PoF a little sooner then because you do have a filler for that one open GCD (Horn, PoF, Raise, (BT), some runes should be back by now).

Looking at the most recent logs from yesterday on Ultraxion(N) it appears that No'Kaled does still scale with mastery. Iceblast was sitting at an average of 15k per proc whereas iceblast and flameblast were ~ 10k. The weapon states it should do 9567 so i would assume that mastery is scaling based on those stats.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I was wondering that too but... I do not believe the adds are up long enough for it to be worth it.
Adds are usually up for 7-9 seconds on our tries.

I was just wondering if the stat weights for masterfrost written on the first page are up to date?
I read on another forum that the stat weights here were a bit outdated,if that makes scence?

Your stat weights will always differ from those posted. To get your own accurate stat weights, use SimulationCraft.

what do you guys think should be the minimum ammount of haste while using a masterfrost build ?

For a pure patchwerk fight, the breakpoint was found to be around 1600-1700. But for any actual fight, just stack mastery as hard as you can IMO - I'd drop as low as 1100 or 1200 without worrying about it.

I guess a 1500 haste cap should be a minimum. Even if masterfrost relies on mastery, haste still stays an important stat. Just because of the Killing Machine proc. And it's good to have it shinning on your bar when you need to place Obliterate for the "1 rune constantly refreshing" rule. For a better play, I agree with gharnef about the 1600-1700 haste cap. I even think that if you can reach a good mastery score and have about 1800 haste, it'll be just perfect.

About the haste cap as masterfrost, is there any proof is worth sacrificing mastery for haste and then again at what rates should I aim for both stats. I'm talking mostly about normal DS gear not hc.

Like normal hastefrost, masterfrost doesn't have a hastecap if you count out blood lust where your runes come out of cooldown very fast to even be using rime (with hastefrost). It all comes down to how good your rng is with runic empowerments and rimes as well as how you actually handle your blood taps, frost strikes and runes. So in reality, you can play with 1100 haste and be less resource starved than by playing with 2000 haste if your rng is good.

All in all it's actually personal preference, and personally I try to reforge for as much mastery as possible, completely neglecting haste.

Just a quick question regarding specs. Usual browser here, always used it for speccing/gemming etc.

I just came back from a 4 month break, had just finished Firelands normal and started on heroics. I am now gearing up on normal DS and LFR.

Problem is my frost spec seems broken, I'm not doing enough Obliterate damage compared to Frost Strike. Even if I wait on Obliterate quite heavy (2-3 seconds, usually don't wait longer than 2) I'm still seeing Frost strike coming a little higher than Obliterate.

My haste is pretty low simply because the new gear I've got with old stuff only permits me to have a certain amount. I'm sitting at 1935 Haste and 1370 Mastery. I have a mix of Firelands normal/LFR and a few 397 items. My armory is linked on profile, I can also get combat logs if neccesary but I thought it would a fairly clear cut answer, just I haven't played in 4 months.

My question is, should I possibly swap to Masterfrost since my haste is low? I am an old hardcore player, so I can adapt to perfecting a new spec pretty quick. I read on main page that Masterfrost is best if used correctly. But I'm unsure on current situation and whether it is better for DS.

Any idea on how I should proceed? I'm gearing fast so my haste is naturally going to get higher. I did pick up a 397 Mace from DS, but I love Frost dps

(I know I don't have crit enchant on cloak or strength on gloves, had to log off so doing it tomorrow :P)

In DW frost you don't actually wait for Obliterate for Killing Machine procs. If you look at the Simcraft priority Killing Machine actually never determines what ability you use. The DW Frost rotation is more about maximizing your resources. This is because both the factors that A) you get a lot of KM procs as DW but also B) they are still really random so you can't rely on not wasting potential dps time. If for some reason you have the ability to choose without wasting resources it would be better to use a KM on Obliterate.

It's more based around not wasting potential resources which means:
Not Obliterating with Rime up
Not Obliterating with > 100 runic power
Not Frost Striking without a fully depleted rune
Not Howling Blasting with > 110 RP
Not HB/FS when sitting on double runes of a single type

If you're maximizing your resources properly things should fall into place so to speak.

If you are struggling with tendon DPS, you should definitely use valor trinket with spine trinket. Creche proc is unreliable with the timing.

Switching to haste build will REDUCE your damage to tendon. As it has been said multiple times in this thread, nothing is stopping you from going back to obli prio whenever you feel like it. If you pool your resources for a while before tendon gets exposed (just hit the extra bloods) you will have plenty of resources to mash FS/Obli for the 19 secs tendon is available, even with the lesser amount of haste. The extra mastery will obviously cause bigger FS hits therefore increasing your tendon DPS more than the minimal benefit extra haste would provide (more auto attacks).

I'm running masterfrost on that fight, and whereas my numbers haven't been just outstanding, they've by far been impressive, top 5 in 25m every time.
As Nettuka said, make sure and pool your resources beforehand, there will always be extra adds you can use for more RP.

And as far as trinks go, I'm actually running the 2 static strength trinks, Bone-Link & Cenche.
When I tried running it as a haste build, my numbers dropped considerably.

These numbers may be achieved by just AoEing blood, but while we are speaking about tendons, and having Valor and Spine Trinket, can anyone provvide the logs where masterfrost deals better on single-target tendon?
I'm saying this because I'm used to be hastefrost in my 10ppl to drop down the elemental effectively, but now we'll got retpally and I'd like to try myself in masterfrost. Thanks you.

Masterfrost is better for tendors just because you can spam Oblit/FS 20 sec even without that 2200 haste. So, haste only affects your white attacks dps and KM procs at burst time. Rune regen dosen't matter. Mastery affects FS and FF damage (and maybe 2-3 HB on procs if you little rune starved and use them).

This is why I hate the terms "Masterfrost" and "Hastefrost". It's not so black and white. Optimizing dps as a Frost DK is mostly about balancing your two main resources: Time and Runes. You have two main attacks to use your runes on: Obliterate, which is higher DPS but eats up runes faster and you have Howling Blast which is higher DPR (damage per rune) but eats up GCDs (thus time) more. So depending on your current haste value you use a combination of Obliterate/Howling Blast to fill all your GCDs, so on one end of the spectrum when you stack haste you get to cast more Obliterates and not run out of resources and on the other you cast more Howling Blasts in order to fill the extra GCDs you have from lower haste (which is countered by mastery boosting the strength of your attacks).

Regardless of your gearing there are situations where using one attack is more useful than the other. In a burst situation Obliterate will always be better because it is higher DPS (only taking one GCD vs 2 for HB). Starting from pooled resources and having about 20 seconds you're not going to run out of resources in such a short time so regardless of your haste / mastery you'll do more tendon damage by obliterating. On the other hand take into consideration a situation with AoE and a Single Howling Blast will end up being more DPS than an Obliterate, at this point it's both higher DPS and DPR so you'd use it regardless.

So while your patchwork style dps rotation will vary based on your individual stat values in specific situations like the tendons certain moves are going to be favorable regardless of gearing.

TL;DR: To maximize DPS during the ~20sec burn on the tendons you want to stack Mastery (because haste won't matter much during the 20s) and prioritize Obliterate (Because it's higher DPS and you don't care about resource longevity). Names like Masterfrost / Hastefrost are dumb because half the time people use them to mean Stat priorities and half the time people use them to mean rotation priorities which leads to confused sheepies.

Actually, yes. I used masterfrost as stat priority, not "rotation" on tendon burst.
Of course for best tendon burst we need masterfrost stat priority but hastefrost "rotation".

The question that interesting me more: If I have Nokaled 416, I must reforge for haste for maximizing procs or for most hard fights stick with mastery and doing little dps on Morchok and Ultra (but who matter dps on that bosses) and still more on Spine and Madness (with mastery stack).