Frost DPS | Winter of Discontent [4.3] - Page 29

gharnef · 12/28/11, 5:23 PM

Originally Posted by Kurg

I think we should differentiate between mastery favoring builds and "masterfrost" priority systems. I have switched to a mastery-priority gear set up, but I still largely use a standard attack priority system, just using lone frost/death runes on HB rather than waiting for an unholy rune that is more than 2 seconds from coming off CD. I have no issues with resource starvation with ~1800 haste (the T13 2-piece is probably essential though), and I don't have the problem of extreme resource capping during BL/Madness/increased haste effects either. Posted a #4 heroic Morchok parse since dropping haste in favor of mastery while still using the normal attack priority. Mastery and haste complement each other to some degree, so I don't think it is accurate to assume (not that you were) that haste is better than mastery for those following "standard" rotations.

Though I won't comment on replacing mastery for haste in the usual OB build as I haven't simmed it (though it does strike me as being a DPS loss) your point about Madness is extremely valid - dropping lots of haste for mastery is definitely worth it on Madness as the 20% haste buff which you have for quite a lot of the fight usually (can't say I know the heroic mode kill order, but I've usually done green -> red first every time on regular followed by either blue or yellow based on the raid CDs available).

Originally Posted by Mhobius

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to your sims delaying Blood Tap usage by ~10 sec every time will make the dps output the same between the two specs? A situation like that is impossible to happen, really. You maybe be lucky with RNG and don't use it for 5 sec, but not for 10 sec, even 1 time. Movement and such don't affect this, because if you aren't on the target or you can't dps for some reason, no matter what spec you have, it isn't going to change anything. The only thing it can really affect your dps is suboptimal play, which it's all your fault.

Another thing, isn't prioritizing a KM Frost Strike over the 2nd Rime stack a dps gain? Let's say you used Obliterate, you're low on runes and you can't use it again, 2x Rime procced, you used 1, a KM procced but you're still low on runes, you KM Frost Strike and then Howling Blast to consume the last stack. This might even work with a normal Rime whit the same low on runes situation. Any thoughts?

Interval being 33 seconds was a 200 dps increase and 48 was a 200 dps loss. So the breakpoint would be roughly 40 - a 10 second delay for equal DPS. As for moving causing a decreased benefit from IBT with a longer CD it is more likely than you will have it on CD (due convenient timing of cooldowns) during the movement for a spec without IBT, so while both will not be doing much of importance, one will have an extra resource waiting (and being wasted) while the other will not - perhaps that alone is not enough to make it a truly worse spec in practice, the quality of life increase is well worth 200 dps to many raiders so they can focus greater attention on the mechanics of the fights.

Omedus · 01/01/12, 3:27 AM

Originally Posted by DaveA50

It took some digging, but here is a pure mastery stacking build doing 39.7k dps on ultraxion and is a top 5 parse, and only 43 dps away from #2.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

The issue is this: each play style causes some things to do more, and some to do less. Calculating how much more is proving to be difficult, and just looking at one aspect of it and negating others when the difference is so minimal seems trivial. I am not saying masterfrost is the better. I am saying it is on par with OB haste builds, for single target. But once you move into the realm of cleave/aoe fights, I cannot see how OB haste builds could perform better.

Excuse me if this isn't accurate, was just something I was thinking about. It might be completely irrelevant but I thought it was worth addressing.

It should be taken into consideration that this parse is from 10 man, which can cause some talents/abilities work "differently" (some for better, some for worse). One of these talents being Merciless combat. The boss has less health than when compared to 25 man (obviously). Doesn't the bosses health drop a faster rate? Merciless combat certainly prefers haste to mastery, being able to get more +12% damage "attacks" with more haste, and less with less. If the bosses health goes from 35% to 0% faster in 10 man, wouldn't that favor a mastery build anyways? There are less oppurtunities to take advantage of having 12% increased damage, which would favor fewer, but harder hitting attacks yes? It might not even be enough of a difference (if at all), but it makes sense to me.

Decev · 01/01/12, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by Omedus

Excuse me if this isn't accurate, was just something I was thinking about. It might be completely irrelevant but I thought it was worth addressing.

It should be taken into consideration that this parse is from 10 man, which can cause some talents/abilities work "differently" (some for better, some for worse). One of these talents being Merciless combat. The boss has less health than when compared to 25 man (obviously). Doesn't the bosses health drop a faster rate? Merciless combat certainly prefers haste to mastery, being able to get more +12% damage "attacks" with more haste, and less with less. If the bosses health goes from 35% to 0% faster in 10 man, wouldn't that favor a mastery build anyways? There are less oppurtunities to take advantage of having 12% increased damage, which would favor fewer, but harder hitting attacks yes? It might not even be enough of a difference (if at all), but it makes sense to me.

If you look at the WoL reports for Normal Ultraxion 10 and 25, the average encounter durations show that the 10-man fights actually last longer than the 25-mans; whereas the Heroic versions are the contrary so your statement isnt true (atleast according to this). Considering the idea of the boss being in the 35% to 0% area longer in 25-man than in 10-man cant really be justified, since there are numerous factors which can affect this, such as the timing of Bloodlust/Heroism and Executes/Kill-shots etc. being usable.

Omedus · 01/01/12, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Decev

If you look at the WoL reports for Normal Ultraxion 10 and 25, the average encounter durations show that the 10-man fights actually last longer than the 25-mans; whereas the Heroic versions are the contrary so your statement isnt true (atleast according to this). Considering the idea of the boss being in the 35% to 0% area longer in 25-man than in 10-man cant really be justified, since there are numerous factors which can affect this, such as the timing of Bloodlust/Heroism and Executes/Kill-shots etc. being usable.

Sure, timing of bloodlust would certainly affect it, although you can't just look at the entire time of the fight since 100-36% it doesn't matter anyways. It was really more a what if? rather than me trying to disprove anything.

Probaton · 01/02/12, 5:18 AM

I'm not even entirely sure why you would think Merciless Combat would 'favor' haste. Since it provides a flat % boost it's going to affect more attacks just as strongly as it will affect stronger attacks.
If anything I'd say it benefits more from mastery than haste as it does not affect melee attacks, which provide a significant portion of haste's value.

kelben · 01/02/12, 7:59 PM

Has there been any solid numbers generated on approximately how much dps gain each set bonus is worth?

Mhobius · 01/03/12, 3:13 PM

Death_Knight_Frost_1h_T13H BiS Profile

4/31/6 (1/2 Butchery): 46619 dps
5/31/5 (2/3 Epidemic): 46669 dps
7/31/3 (3/3 Epidemic): 46786 dps
7/31/3 (3/3 Virulence): 46890 dps

So even 7/31/3 with 3/3 Epidemic pulls ahead than the "easy life" 5/31/5 spec, which make things even easier with 33 sec disease duration. About AoE dps, the difference is debatable: Frost Fever will tick 30% harder with 5/31/5, it all depends how much the AoE phase last, because you have an additional Howling Blast with 7/31/3 for more burst.

DaveA50 · 01/04/12, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mhobius

Death_Knight_Frost_1h_T13H BiS Profile

4/31/6 (1/3 Butchery): 46619 dps
5/31/5 (2/3 Epidemic): 46669 dps
7/31/3 (3/3 Epidemic): 46786 dps
7/31/3 (3/3 Virulence): 46890 dps

So even 7/31/3 with 3/3 Epidemic pulls ahead than the "easy life" 5/31/5 spec, which make things even easier with 33 sec disease duration. About AoE dps, the difference is debatable: Frost Fever will tick 30% harder with 5/31/5, it all depends how much the AoE phase last, because you have an additional Howling Blast with 7/31/3 for more burst.

3/3 epidemic in any build is a waste. 2/3 is all you need to have an "easy" playstyle, as you can let blood plague fall off 1 second every 30s, as it lasts 29s. not having 100% uptime is fine, just don't OB without it on the target.

Especially with a masterfrost build, not having PS on the target is fine. Squeeze out that extra OB instead and just let the target not have PS on it for ~5s. Ultraxion Log, 42.5k dps, for this week, I had 93.8% uptime. It's almost never worth overwriting a PS on the target unless you can't use that U rune for anything else and you need the ~10rp for another FS.

Maeylor · 01/04/12, 4:56 PM

Just how much should we prioritize Mastery over Haste? Tonight we're running Madness and I'm going to switch to a mastery heavy build as opposed to the Typical hate build. While taking Cort's advice, reforged to a higher mastery than haste build (roughly 1700 in each rating, mastery slightly higher than haste, with room for about 100 more mastery,) I got on the raid dummy and parsed roughly 2k average Higher single-target on 5 minutes on a dummy, sitting 393 equipped with 2 391 Cleavers. I maintained Cort's priority, after reading through the entire 18 pages of the thread. Should I continue my reforge and pull as MUCH possible Mastery as I can get or leave the two rating close? Either way, it's a dps increase from what I have been putting up.

Yubble · 01/04/12, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by DaveA50

3/3 epidemic in any build is a waste.

On any fight requiring significant movement/target switching, I'd have to disagree that it's a "waste," as the extra disease ticks, for both diseases, will continue to do damage while you're NOT actively on a target.

Maeylor · 01/04/12, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Yubble

On any fight requiring significant movement/target switching, I'd have to disagree that it's a "waste," as the extra disease ticks, for both diseases, will continue to do damage while you're NOT actively on a target.

Yeah, but just how much uptime do you really NEED for the adds for any of these fights?

Kaejin · 01/04/12, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by Maeylor

Just how much should we prioritize Mastery over Haste? Tonight we're running Madness and I'm going to switch to a mastery heavy build as opposed to the Typical hate build. While taking Cort's advice, reforged to a higher mastery than haste build (roughly 1700 in each rating, mastery slightly higher than haste, with room for about 100 more mastery,) I got on the raid dummy and parsed roughly 2k average Higher single-target on 5 minutes on a dummy, sitting 393 equipped with 2 391 Cleavers. I maintained Cort's priority, after reading through the entire 18 pages of the thread. Should I continue my reforge and pull as MUCH possible Mastery as I can get or leave the two rating close? Either way, it's a dps increase from what I have been putting up.

I don't know how much haste you had before you reforged, but with 2p t13 the amount of haste you need before hitting the GCD cap is drastically lowered even for Oblit heavy priorities. You should be adjusting your haste levels until you find a spot where you're not wasting resources. Around 1800 to 1900 haste rating is a good place to start exploring.

Maeylor · 01/04/12, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Kaejin

I don't know how much haste you had before you reforged, but with 2p t13 the amount of haste you need before hitting the GCD cap is drastically lowered even for Oblit heavy priorities. You should be adjusting your haste levels until you find a spot where you're not wasting resources. Around 1800 to 1900 haste rating is a good place to start exploring.

When I reforged to a mastery-heavy build, I'm sitting at 1739 Haste and 1758 Mastery. On the tests I've ran on dummies today, I did not have one Moment in my rotation where I was starved for Runic Power OR Runes.
I changed my Spec to incorporate IBT versus my prior 2/3 Epidemic build.

Mhobius · 01/04/12, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by DaveA50

3/3 epidemic in any build is a waste. 2/3 is all you need to have an "easy" playstyle, as you can let blood plague fall off 1 second every 30s, as it lasts 29s. not having 100% uptime is fine, just don't OB without it on the target.

How is it a waste if that spec does more dps? Isn't maximizing your dps the main goal of this thread? All my test aren't assumptions, but proven numbers based on simulationcraft, which is at the base of all the theorycrafting you read here. The main page should be updated accordantly and clarify the fact 7/31/3 Virulence does the most dps, but it requires optimal play. All the other specs are subpar to that, but they provide easier gameplay at cost of some dps. At the end of tha day you play the one you prefer the most, but I'd like people to be aware of their choices, because it seems to me that not everyone knows the exactly difference and plays 5/31/5 for no apparent reason.

DaveA50 · 01/04/12, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mhobius

How is it a waste if that spec does more dps? Isn't maximizing your dps the main goal of this thread? All my test aren't assumptions, but proven numbers based on simulationcraft, which is at the base of all the theorycrafting you read here. The main page should be updated accordantly and clarify the fact 7/31/3 Virulence does the most dps, but it requires optimal play. All the other specs are subpar to that, but they provide easier gameplay at cost of some dps. At the end of tha day you play the one you prefer the most, but I'd like people to be aware of their choices, because it seems to me that not everyone knows the exactly difference and plays 5/31/5 for no apparent reason.

It doesn't do more dps, thats why its a waste.
4/31/6 (3/3 epidemic): 46619 dps
5/31/5 (2/3 Epidemic): 46669 dps

7/31/3 (3/3 Epidemic): 46786 dps
7/31/3 (0/3 Epidemic): 46890 dps

Take a look at your numbers again. 0/3 epidemic does more than 3/3 with IBT. 2/3 epidemic does more than 3/3 without IBT. The only one you left out was IBT with 1/3 virulence, 2/3 epidemic, but that won't be more than 3/3 virulence anyway. This is just based on your numbers. I'm also assuming this wasn't with a masterfrost priority, which only further pushes us away from epidemic.