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Old 01/05/12, 8:16 AM   #436
Mhobius
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Nemesis (EU)
Originally Posted by DaveA50 View Post
It doesn't do more dps, thats why its a waste.
4/31/6 (3/3 epidemic): 46619 dps
5/31/5 (2/3 Epidemic): 46669 dps

7/31/3 (3/3 Epidemic): 46786 dps
7/31/3 (0/3 Epidemic): 46890 dps

Take a look at your numbers again. 0/3 epidemic does more than 3/3 with IBT. 2/3 epidemic does more than 3/3 without IBT. The only one you left out was IBT with 1/3 virulence, 2/3 epidemic, but that won't be more than 3/3 virulence anyway. This is just based on your numbers. I'm also assuming this wasn't with a masterfrost priority, which only further pushes us away from epidemic.
Don't put words in my mouth, read again. Even 7/31/3 Epidemic DOES more dps than 5/31/5, that what I was saying to you, so that spec is not a waste. 7/31/3 Virulence is the best build around, but it requires optimal play. Also, I'm not taking Masterfrost in consideration atm.

Last edited by Mhobius : 01/05/12 at 12:40 PM.

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Old 01/05/12, 9:29 AM   #437
Maeylor
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Burning Blade
This far into my testing, while using 7/31/3 spec & Masterfrost, this spec is still outperforming my prior spec with 2/3 epidemic using an OB priority, even while using 1 Normal Souldrinker & 391 cleaver.

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Old 01/05/12, 11:19 AM   #438
Kurg
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Greymane
Originally Posted by Mhobius View Post
How is it a waste if that spec does more dps? Isn't maximizing your dps the main goal of this thread? All my test aren't assumptions, but proven numbers based on simulationcraft, which is at the base of all the theorycrafting you read here. The main page should be updated accordantly and clarify the fact 7/31/3 Virulence does the most dps, but it requires optimal play. All the other specs are subpar to that, but they provide easier gameplay at cost of some dps. At the end of tha day you play the one you prefer the most, but I'd like people to be aware of their choices, because it seems to me that not everyone knows the exactly difference and plays 5/31/5 for no apparent reason.
It isn't more DPS. Even your simulation data demonstrates less than 0.5% difference. That may be statistically significant (depending on your iteration count) but it isn't functionally significant. Regardless, I don't believe that any human can play the IBT build to the precision that the simulation program can. The IBT build is predicated on using BT immediately when it comes off CD, but there are situations where is comes off CD and it isn't advisable to use it or extenuating circumstances of the fight make it not optimal.

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Old 01/05/12, 9:16 PM   #439
Maeylor
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Burning Blade
Originally Posted by Kurg View Post
It isn't more DPS. Even your simulation data demonstrates less than 0.5% difference. That may be statistically significant (depending on your iteration count) but it isn't functionally significant. Regardless, I don't believe that any human can play the IBT build to the precision that the simulation program can. The IBT build is predicated on using BT immediately when it comes off CD, but there are situations where is comes off CD and it isn't advisable to use it or extenuating circumstances of the fight make it not optimal.
Just how much will the two different builds tailor to Masterfrost vs a Traditional priority?

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Old 01/05/12, 10:04 PM   #440
Mhobius
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Nemesis (EU)
Originally Posted by Kurg View Post
It isn't more DPS. Even your simulation data demonstrates less than 0.5% difference. That may be statistically significant (depending on your iteration count) but it isn't functionally significant. Regardless, I don't believe that any human can play the IBT build to the precision that the simulation program can. The IBT build is predicated on using BT immediately when it comes off CD, but there are situations where is comes off CD and it isn't advisable to use it or extenuating circumstances of the fight make it not optimal.
So let me summarize, you don't BELIEVE anyone can play 7/31/3 properly and you are basing your theories on assumptions and not even personal experience or numbers. Following your logic, 100 or 200 more dps isn't an improvement and Masterfrost shouldn't even be mentioned, because you need to play the Imp Blood Tap spec with even an harder priority than the normal one, impossible for a human being. This argument got already clarified and discussed a page ago, you can find your answers there.

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Old 01/06/12, 7:46 AM   #441
Kurg
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Greymane
Originally Posted by Mhobius View Post
So let me summarize, you don't BELIEVE anyone can play 7/31/3 properly and you are basing your theories on assumptions and not even personal experience or numbers. Following your logic, 100 or 200 more dps isn't an improvement and Masterfrost shouldn't even be mentioned, because you need to play the Imp Blood Tap spec with even an harder priority than the normal one, impossible for a human being. This argument got already clarified and discussed a page ago, you can find your answers there.
Because you are basing your opinions on the simulation, for which reaction times are not an issue. Even with a flawless execution the build is only very slightly ahead. That is why I mentioned that it may be statistically significant but not functionally significant. Is it worth playing a build where you may come out slightly ahead or significantly behind if you happen to make a mistake? Maybe. But if you have evidence suggesting the IBT build is superior IN PRACTICE (i.e. logs) I would love to see it.

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Old 01/06/12, 9:13 AM   #442
Zimeron
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Finala
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Kurg View Post
Because you are basing your opinions on the simulation, for which reaction times are not an issue. Even with a flawless execution the build is only very slightly ahead. That is why I mentioned that it may be statistically significant but not functionally significant. Is it worth playing a build where you may come out slightly ahead or significantly behind if you happen to make a mistake? Maybe. But if you have evidence suggesting the IBT build is superior IN PRACTICE (i.e. logs) I would love to see it.
Why do you believe reaction time is not a factor in the simulator? The simulator only reacts to events as fast as you tell it, so if it takes you 3 seconds to recognize that you procced Killing Machine, etc., we support setting that. There are reasons why we have expressions using things like if=buff.killing_machine.react and also why sometimes the sim will use a KM on something other than Obliterates, as that's what you do in-game when you didn't/couldn't react to it in time.

If you truly have a worse reaction time than the default in the sim (half a second base, with some randomness), then increase it, run the sims again, and compare which still comes out best for you, as that's the purpose of the simulator.

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Old 01/06/12, 9:55 AM   #443
EwokChilli
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Medivh
As far as using IBT in actual gameplay, since you usually use IBT after you've Oblit'd all of your runes away, you can just macro it into FS and it'll give you 6-8 seconds off a rune routinely (at least it does for me).

While a Sim can prove what the best spec is for a computer, you have to figure out how to translate it to real play without standing in the fire.

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Old 01/06/12, 2:55 PM   #444
Mhobius
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Nemesis (EU)
Originally Posted by Kurg View Post
Because you are basing your opinions on the simulation, for which reaction times are not an issue. Even with a flawless execution the build is only very slightly ahead. That is why I mentioned that it may be statistically significant but not functionally significant. Is it worth playing a build where you may come out slightly ahead or significantly behind if you happen to make a mistake? Maybe. But if you have evidence suggesting the IBT build is superior IN PRACTICE (i.e. logs) I would love to see it.
I'm not basing my opinion exclusively on the simulator, what spec do you think I'm playing? If I wasn't so sure of its potential, I wouldn't have brought the argument, it's not my fault if no one actually did it and there's still confusion about what spec you should play and why. I'm not stating everyone should play 7/31/3 Virulence, because all the other specs are viable, but you should know that's the best one if you actually play decently well. "I don't believe that any human can play the IBT build to the precision that the simulation program can" True and false. Sure, no one can be as accurate as a machine, but that affects everything, not just Blood Tap usage. If you really cared about reading the previous page, you will know that the average time between every Blood Tap in the simulator is almost 34 sec, so with ~4 sec delay you still gaining 200 dps over the usual 5/31/5 spec and it can be more than that. Someone actually showed that even with constant ~10 sec delay you will still deal on par dps with the counterpart spec, but it's not going to happen even 1 time with the luckiest rng ever. Logs don't really help in this matter, because ~200 dps are hard to analyze, because rng has much more impact, so just try it by yourself and if you are comfortable with, keep on using it. If not, go back to your old spec, but don't spread misinformation by stating no one can play it, because it's surely not true.

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Old 01/09/12, 10:31 AM   #445
Rikdot
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Death Knight
 
Jaedenar (EU)
Regarding the best choice for trinkets on the Spine of Deathwing heroic, wouldnt the Cataclysmic Gladiator's Badge of Victory beat the Rotting skull on pure damage done to the tendon?

Using the OP's stat weights:

PvP Trinket:
2419 Strength , 20 seconds. No secondary stats.

Use-variety Trinket Value = (Passive Stat x Passive Stat Weight) + ((Use stat x Use Stat Weight) / 6)
Cataclysmic Gladiator's Badge of Victory = (0)+(2419 x 3,49) / (23/20) <- (Tendon uptime (Fight length)/Trinket uptime)
0 + 8442,31 / 1,15 = 7341,14

Valor point trinket
2190 Strenth, 15 seconds 458 Crit (183 Haste + 275 Crit after reforging)

Rotting skull = (((183 x 1,92) + (275 x 1,68)) + (2290 x 3,49))/(23/15)
813,36 + 5212,24 = 6025,59

Correct me if im wrong, wasnt to sure about the 23/20 part there.

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Old 01/09/12, 2:44 PM   #446
Titus Pullo
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Stormreaver
The numbers are right but looks like your notation is off. The bolded parentheses aren't needed and you calculated without them anyways.

Originally Posted by Rikdot View Post
Valor point trinket
2190 Strenth, 15 seconds 458 Crit (183 Haste + 275 Crit after reforging)

Rotting skull = (((183 x 1,92) + (275 x 1,68)) + (2290 x 3,49))/(23/15)
813,36 + 5212,24 = 6025,59
[Fury of Angerforge] is the closest I found beside the PvP trinket.

(129 x 1.92) + (193 X 1.68) + [(1926 x 3.49) x (20/23)] = 6415

So ideally you would run Eye of Unmaking and the PvP trinket.

Last edited by Titus Pullo : 01/10/12 at 1:13 AM.

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Old 01/09/12, 11:45 PM   #447
kelben
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Ysera
Since the time between tendons is less then 2 minutes, wouldn't the skull pull ahead since it should be up for every tendon?

Haste is the devil...

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Old 01/10/12, 1:13 AM   #448
Titus Pullo
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by kelben View Post
Since the time between tendons is less then 2 minutes, wouldn't the skull pull ahead since it should be up for every tendon?
Yes, I was just looking over KIN's kill video and they have around 1:30 intervals between burn phases on a tendon or 2:30 intervals if they switch to a new tendon, which makes the PvP trinket unfeasible since it won't get full uptime.

Likewise for FoA, it won't be up in time to get full benefit.

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Old 01/10/12, 8:39 AM   #449
Boggot
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
hi all

Understanding a few other posts here, i should only be using FS when all 3 sets of runes are on CD (unless RP capped) to maximise RE procs. as soon as i get an RE proc i should stop using FS, wait for another rune to become available then OB? even if the other 2 runes are say a long way from becoming availabe. Would it be better to try and fs to get another rune avilable even if you are wasting the chance with only 2 rune sets on cd not 3, use the available rune on say howling blast or PS, or something else? maybe i should save bloot tap for this situation?

i apologise if this should have gone in simple questions thread and thanks

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Old 01/10/12, 11:04 AM   #450
EwokChilli
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Medivh
Has anyone run a SimC for 2H frost with Gurth? I'm simply curious how it performs since as frost it would have a very high % of attacks to proc from since Melee + OB + FS makes up for ~80% of damage as 2H frost. I looked at SimC listing for raid T13 H and didn't even see it on the list. Heroics have shoehorned me into having a blood and frost spec for H10 progression. I don't have a 2nd H Morchok Axe yet so I'm still trying to get by with a Gurth and wanted to see if it was even 95% competitive with DW at the top end.

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