For Heroic Ragnaros, I am looking for some tips at maximizing AoE damage on the Molten Elementals in Phase 2. Right now I have been switching to frost presence for this phase, saving up runes, and using PoF as soon as seeds spawn to start that rune recharging. AMS at 30 yards away from the seeds before they explode, pop all other on-use dps boosts (Blood Fury, trinket, engineering tinker) and drop D&D so that they spawn in the back edge of the circle and run through the whole D&D area. I have one targeted as the explosion happens and just start spamming HB's while strafing away, ready to pick a new target if mine dies earlier than the rest. I try to have Blood Tap ready to get off an extra HB here. I have tried Obliterating as the seeds spawn once to hope for a Rime proc, but it doesn't seem worth it since usually the runes aren't back up in time for AoE.

I am a bit unsure where I can improve on this, and welcome suggestions.

What I am doing is obliterating for a rime proc 3-2 seconds before the seeds land. We move and I pop PoF/Engineering tinker. Then I drop D&D on the adds , just the way you described. Then just stand away from them use AMS and strafe back while spamming howling blast and using blood tap to generate another rune when I am out of runes. All of this is done in unholy presence. I have a macro to make sure I keep targetting a molten elemental during the whole strafing part.

#showtooltip Howling Blast
/Target Molten elemental
/Cast Howling blast

If I remember correctly, DnD is a 'hidden' buff on the player (similar to consecrate) and if you AmS while it's down, the adds don't take damage from it.

Correct. Also hasn't been fixed in 4.2.2, unfortunately ._. So make sure you drop Death and Decay before using AMS on the Seed explosion if you want it to do any damage at all.

Thank you, that explains that...

My sequence of events leading up to the elementals is as follows:

-leading up to the call to move standard dps on Rag.
-on the "3-2-1" count down to move i save runes for 1-2 obliterates
-on the "move" call i will obliterate once or twice, hoping for a rime proc, if rime does not proc then move on and focus on the next part.
-while moving (usually as seeds are landing) i manually pop Pillar of Frsot and the the Essence (Trinket from revered rep)
-after poping pillar i will frost strike to hopefully recover a rune or two
-Drop DnD so the back edge of the targeting circle is barely catching the adds (the effect of the DnD seems to hit targets tht are barely touching the effect)
-PoP AMS
-the second you see the explosion spam a macro'd HB and strafe away
-as you are using your last death or frost rune pop blood tap to regen another and use it.
-this shouldleave you with 2 unholy runes left so its a good time to refresh blood plague on rag

if you get realyl bad luck with rime/RE procs you can frost strike rage for a chance at a RE proc.
I typically use outbreak on rag about 5 sec before the move, this tends to make the PS on rage as the adds die line up nicely.

my HB macro is similar to the one linked above, but i have a "/target Ragnaros" at the end so that i can be meleeing rag while moving, it also makes getting a needed FS off a lot easier. I also suggest a "/targetecaxt Molten Elemental", it just prevents other bad stuff from happening.

Again as stated earlier stay in UP for the shorted GCD and increased movement speed.

Running some math on the trinket changes in 4.2.2 which were client side updates but updates regardless. Although the math may look funny I did calculate Pillar buff dps separately and added it appropriately.

[Apparatus of Khaz'goroth]

383 strength X 20% Pillar(33%) X 3.2 strength stat weight = 1306.49
508 haste X 5 X 1.78 haste stat weight X 30/120 = 1130.3
Total normal trinket is worth = 2436.79 DPS

Will be less than that considering ramp up time. Not sure exactly how to calculate that as a frost dk considering i have auto white hit crits and generate them from Killing machine. If anyone knows how I'd love to hear it.

[Apparatus of Khaz'goroth]

433 strength X 20% Pillar(33%) X 3.2 strength stat weight = 1477.05
575 haste X 5 X 1.78 haste stat weight X 30/120 = 1279.375
Total heroic trinket is worth = 2756.425 DPS

[Vessel of Acceleration]

406 strength X 20% Pillar(33%) X 3.2 strength stat weight = 1384.95
82 crit X 5 X 1.28 crit stat weight = 524.8
Total normal trinket is worth = 1909.75 DPS

[Vessel of Acceleration]

458 strength X 20% Pillar X 3.2 strength stat weight = 1562.33
92 crit rating X 5 X 1.28 crit stat weight = 588.8
Total heroic trinket is worth = 2151.13 DPS

[Essence of the Eternal Flame]

1277 strength X 20% Pillar(full uptime) X 3.2 strength stat weight X 15/60 = 1225.92
153 haste reforged rating X 1.78 haste stat weight = 272.34
231 mastery X 1.57 mastery stat weight = 362.67
Total normal trinket is worth = 1860.93 DPS

[Essence of the Eternal Flame]

1441 strength X 20% Pillar(full up time) X 3.2 strength stat weight X 15/60 = 1383.36
173 haste reforged rating X 1.78 haste stat weight = 307.94
260 mastery rating X 1.57 mastery stat weight = 408.2
Total heroic trinket is worth = 2099.5 DPS

[Crushing Weight]

363 strength X 20% Pillar(33%) X 3.2 strength stat weight = 1238.27
2178 haste rating X 1.78 haste stat weight X 15/60 = 969.21
Total heroic trinket is worth = 2207.48

[Heart of Rage]

145 haste rating X 1.78 haste stat weight = 258.1
218 expertise rating X 1.87 expertise stat weight = 407.66
2178 strength rating X 3.2 strength stat weight X 20/100= 1393.92
Total heroic trinket is worth WITHOUT Pillar = 2059.68
Total heroic trinket is worth WITH Pillar = 2519.67

If my math is wrong, let me know but I'm pretty sure it's correct. Only fights I can see EotEF being well regarded on is primarily Alysrazor heroic to dps down adds faster and heroic ragnaros if you need extra seed damage.

You cannot multiply strength values by 20% x 33% to account for PoF. The statweight of 3.2, which came from a simulator, already accounts for the fact that PoF is used. When the simulator figures out the STR statweight, it just adds STR, simulates DPS, and sees how much the DPS changes, essentially.

The reason you put in an additional PoF correction for EEF is that, unlike static amounts of +STR or STR procs which are uncorrelated with the PoF cooldown, the EEF proc *always* is synched with PoF and therefore benefits more than "normal" STR which only benefits from 33% of PoF on average.

So the appropriate way to calculate the value of STR from trinkets is:

-If the strength is just a fixed amount or a proc with a CD uncorrelated with PoF (like HoR), JUST MULTIPLY THE VALUE BY THE 3.2 STATWEIGHT (or whatever) AND YOU ARE DONE

-If the strength is a proc which is always synched with PoF, MULTIPLY THE STR VALUE BY 1.2 / (1.2*0.33) = 1.2/1.0667 = 1.125, AND YOU ARE DONE.

The second (smaller) problem with your numbers is it does not make sense to use the EXP or HIT statweights to figure out the value of an item the way you have. The EXP statweight, for example, represents essentially how much DPS you *lose* for each point below the cap (assuming you sim the statweight from a configuration that is capped initially). Obviously EXP above the cap does you no good. Expertise on an item increases DPS to the extent that it allows you to reforge expertise elsewhere into haste or mastery. So really, to find the value of a trinket like HoR, the best way is to substitute it into your gear, reforge/optimize, and see how your haste/mastery changes in response. In the best case scenario, adding X expertise will translate into X more haste+mastery overall. In practice, it may result in less than X more haste+mastery depending on whether or not you can "use" the extra expertise. But the point is you cant just multiply the expertise value by the expertise statweight as you can do for other stats.

I may be missing something here but something's not right with these equations. First, 1.2 / (1.2*n) = 1/n. Second, 1.2*.33 is not 1.0667, it's .396, making 1.2/(1.2*.33) = ~3.03.

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Essence's 1m CD is a lot more valuable than elementary patchwerk simming shows. Being able to consistently have a trinket going with the Pilar/Pot/Ghoul when your raid will decide to Bloodlust is extremely valuable and beneficial. When sims make out trivial differences between trinkets, always side with convenience. I'd still use Essence over Aparatus even if the Sim made it out to be 300dps ahead; Correctly synching trink/PoI/Ghoul/Pot more than makes up for it, and unless you have a rigid BL schedule that's perfectly adhered to every raid (in which case you can still line everything up), EoEF ensures you can always have the burst when you want it.

It's perhaps worth noting that Apparatus' synch with the Ghoul is quite ridiculous as well and I rarely see it mentioned when discussing trinkets.

But EotEF is really strong with PoF, there's no denying it. Another detail when comparing the two is that on fights where the ghoul easily dies, EotEF is definitely going to be a strong choice. Apparatus' main selling point is if the ghoul lasts the full duration without AI meltdowns.

edit: To clarify, if you have a haste setup regarding ghoul + AoK, not a mastery one

As always when talking about trinket benefits and lining your procs etc up, it's worth noting that EotEF puts Synapse Springs on cooldown for the duration of it's uptime and vice versa.

Does ghoul benefit from the apparatus proc?

It would benefit from the proc if it's haste, and would not benefit if it was mastery.

Parsing on domo comes down to how your raid does the fight and deals with slashes.

Regardless, when domo leaps away and spawns an add, you usually have two to three GCDs on the add before he gets back into melee range. I'll usually HB and FS the add once then swap back to domo to HB more so that both get hit by it, unless I have a KM proc in which case oblitting domo to put the unholy rune on cooldown is still more DPS than HBing unless there's 2+ adds.

You can't tunnel adds because razorice will fall off of domo (if DW). When an add is below 35%, I'll AOE off of it for merciless combat's benefit. If domo is below 35%, I only AOE off of him.

If you happen to be your raid's top DPS or your raid lacks a combat rogue, get a pally to bop you just before the stun with the first seeds comes out, bop immunes the seed debuff so you don't lose your concentration buff and don't have to run out.

Currently I don't apply diseases to the adds, use my runes to OB Domo and build up RP for the adds

You no longer have to worry about things like Glacier Rot or Gorefiend's Guile so that's not necessary. The only buff a Frost DK is capable of putting on the adds that would increase FS damage would be Razorice.

The method Libretto (rh8452) describes is more or less what I've been using and it's done the best for me.

It gives Brittle Bones though and FS does physical damage converted into Frost damage? Apologies if I'm wrong but I can't FS through stuff like BoP so I figured that was the way it worked. Also it buffs our combat rogue and any other melee DPS that happens to be hitting the add.

It also affects your hunters and melee pets so a hunter a UH DK or an affliction/demo warlock on the add also gain a 4% buff for themselves/ their pet which is a large buff to their overall damage output on the adds and the boss especially in 25 man.

Frost Strike gains nothing from having Frost Fever on the target. It deals x% of weapon damage as Frost damage (which is different from Scourge Strike which deals shadow damage based on how much physical damage it does first), so it gets buffed by spell damage buffs like Ebon Plaguebringer, not physical ones like Brittle Bones.

This isn't to say you shouldn't Howling Blast Domo when he has adds, because you obviously should be doing so. It just doesn't benefit Frost Strike's damage to have your diseases up.

I was touring on Worldoflogs and decided to take a look at Baleroc 10 Normal Frost DKs.
Number one 35k6, 375 ilvl and not even killled Ragnaros. I don't understand how it is possible to have such DPS with that gear.
Number two has 386 ilvl, totally understandable 33k2.

How do you explain such DPS with that gear ? Just amazing RNG ? I looked at his crits and it's not that enormous...

It's a 10 Man so one parse had different class/specs than the other, resulting in different raid buffs and de-buffs. Then you have rng, latency, and player skill.