Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 2

Acediar · 10/27/11, 7:47 AM

Let me summarize my views on the talents
15 Rolling Blood: Could be useful for Blood DK during trash or bosses with adds go get aggro during bosses with adds
Corpse Explosion: Not very useful, if a mob died this quickly, spreading diseases isn't worth it
Outbreak: My skill of choice, slight DPS increase on single target (1 OB per min)
30 Lichborne: Only if a boss fears
Anti-Magic Zone: Perfect raid CD
Bone Shield: If we don't need AMZ
45 Death's Advance: Bosses with slows are rare
Chillblains: Finally we can quickly get it without losing DPS
Asphyxiate: Doesn't sound very appealing, even if a mob needs CC we are taking out as well plus we lose Strangulate
60 Death Pact: Same old
Death Siphon: Costs Death Runes, if a boss requires me to heal myself due to isolation, needs be be checked for actual DPS
Vampiric Blood: My choice, the increased healing does more than the other option could
75 Blood Tap: The cooldown needs adjustment probably not the final number otherwise it falls safely in the "3 DS/FS gives 1 rune" number but due to the nature of activating even a nearly recharged rune it's not worth the hassle even if the 1min CD is lifted completely
Runic Empowerment: again you need roughly 3 stikes to get a free rune 100% but still random
Runic Corruption: My weapon of choice, not only is it not random but increases regeneration of all the runes

This tier needs calculation
90 Gorefiend's Grasp: Doesn't seem to taunt but the application during bosses is rare, even if your tank needs to pull many whelps together they mostly can do that on their own
Remorseless Winter: Direct DPS increase and good during add phases if they aren't immune to stun
Desecrated Ground: In my experience boss CC usually overrides immunity

So, let's assume a "normal" fluffy pillow boss, unless a mechanic forces us to choose otherwise I would go with:
Outbreak, Bones Shield, Chillblains, Vampiric Blood, Runic Corruption, Remorseless Winter
as a default boss setup

Yörgle · 10/27/11, 8:20 AM

Comparative between rank 5 talents (rune regeneration) :

First, I want to mention that I'm well aware about the fact that RC >> RE and BT. The purpose of this post is to formalize it properly in order to be absolutely sure about that fact and (more importantly), to be able to calculate the talents' efficiency as soon as the figures vary during the bêta.
Also, I obviously consider that the CD on BT is a glitch. (Having the 5.0 BT working with 1 min CD makes absolutely no sense, as it will make it so so far behind RC and RE).

I will compare each talent in term of efficiency, but will begin to calculate the efficiency by rune : E = (rune gained) / (RP-ability used). The reason why I calculate this value first, is the trickiness of RC, as you'll see. ^_^

Blood Tap : Each DC / RS /FS gives a Blood Charge. Using BT with 3 charges gives a fully depleted rune.
→ Very easy : E = 1 / 3 (one rune gained for 3 RP-abilities used)

Runic Empowerment : Each FS / RS / DC has 45% chance to give a fully depleted rune.
So 0.45 rune for 1 RP-ability gives :
→ E = 1 / 2.22

Runic Corruption : Each FS / RS / DC increase by 100% rune regeneration for 3 seconds.
This one is tricky. For the sake of having an easy calculation (for now !), let's say the rune regeneration time is 8s. In order to gain the equivalent of one rune, we have to have the RC buff up during 8 seconds (so during this time, a rune that would fully depleted -16 sec cd- would recharge in 8 seconds, ie an equivalent gain of one rune). /!\ Don't forget that we calculate efficiency by rune so I think as RC affecting only ONE depleted rune for the moment.
In order to have RC up for 8 seconds, we should have X procs. X = 8 / 3 = 2.67
→ E = 1 / 2.67

So we can see that by rune, RE > RC. (And as expected, BT is pretty shitty.)
However, it's quite obvious that most of the time, when you DS / RS / FS, you'll have more than 0 or 1 rune recharging. Let's say we have 3 runes recharging when using a RP-ability (seems pretty accurate as an average value) : E' = 3 x 1/2.67 = 1.12 (using one RP-ability gives more than one rune !)

Now basically, we can see that RC >>> other talents. However, this still is a particular case when t = 8s (recharging rune time) and N = 3 (number of runes recharging when DC/FS/RS -ing).

Generalisation :

The aime of this part is to be able to have the theorical tool to immediatly compare BT, RE and RC when the values into the talents will vary (as it will likely happen during the beta phase).

B : blood charge necessary to use BT
R : RE proc chance
C : RC proc chance
Tc : RC buff duration
t : rune recharging time
N : number of rune recharging

At the moment, if the beta would go out with current values, we'd have : B = 3 ; R = 0.45 ; C = 1 ; Tc = 3s.
t depends of your character, and N has to be averaged (imo N = 3 is OK but it's not important for now).

The three efficiencies are :

BT : E = 1 / B
RE : E' = R (you can calculate 1/R to write E' = 1 / (1/R) to comparate more easily to the others, as done above)
RC : E" = (C x Tc x N) / t

How to compare RE and RC :

As they might be the ones in competition, let's see how to compare them. If we consider that N is known (or a value for N is generally known as a good average), we want to know for a value of t (rune recharging time) depending on your gear / gems / enchants, if your character will benefit the most of RE or RC.

We'll then seek t = t', time for which :
E' = E"
<=> 1 / R = t' / (C x Tc x N)
<=> t' = C x Tc x N / R
If t > t' on your character sheet, you'll want to spec RE.
If t < t' on your character sheet, you'll want to spec RC.

Example with current values :
We have :R = 0.45 ; C = 1 ; Tc = 3s.

t' = 1 x 3 x 1 / 0.45 = 6.67 s, with N = 1
t' = 1 x 3 x 2 / 0.45 = 13.33 s, with N = 2
t' = 1 x 3 x 3 / 0.45 = 20 s, with N = 3
t' = 1 x 3 x 4 / 0.45 = 26.67 s, with N = 4
t' = 1 x 3 x 5 / 0.45 = 33.33 s, with N = 5
t' = 1 x 3 x 6 / 0.45 = 40 s, with N = 6

Obviously, unless you consider N = 1 (which doesn't seem realistic at all), RC is by far more efficient than RE.
All the calculation may seem totally unecessary, but keep in mind that when they'll change the values of B, R, C or Tc, we might have a use of this !

Feel free to point out any mistake in the calculation or in the formalisation.

Acediar · 10/27/11, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Yörgle

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Runic Empowerment : Each FS / RS / DC has 45% chance to give a fully depleted rune.
So 0.45 rune for 1 RP-ability gives :
→ E = 1 / 2.22

That is not quite correct, I am still looking up the correct formula (haven't used stochastic in a while) and will report back it it diferes greatly

Runic Corruption : Each FS / RS / DC increase by 100% rune regeneration for 3 seconds.
This one is tricky. For the sake of having an easy calculation (for now !), let's say the rune regeneration time is 8s.

It's modified by haste, it would be nice if you could check if it's usefulness goes up or down with more haste

Yörgle · 10/27/11, 8:54 AM

Originally Posted by Acediar

That is not quite correct, I am still looking up the correct formula (haven't used stochastic in a while) and will report back it it diferes greatly

Ok thanks.
I don't understand why it's not correct, could you explane please ? (Not saying you're wrong but the TT seems pretty straightforward to me :-/ )

Originally Posted by Acediar

It's modified by haste, it would be nice if you could check if it's usefulness goes up or down with more haste

Actually I kind of did : the value of t' just after !

Edit :

← Click Here

On the french forum, I have the formalisation with haste value but I didn't post it here for two reasons : some errors I didn't correct yet and, more importantly, with t' you can just check that value while raid buffed while with haste (% or score), it's not that simple (or is it ?

).

But if you want i'll push the formalisation that far and we'll see where we're going with this.

Acediar · 10/27/11, 9:00 AM

Originally Posted by Yörgle

Ok thanks.
I don't understand why it's not correct, could you explane please ? (Not saying you're wrong but the TT seems pretty straightforward to me :-/ )

Don't even try to understand stochastic

Their is a certain formula I'm trying to find to calculate how many tries you need with a set probability to get at least one hit you have to use here. You can't simply use 1/.45=2.22..
As an example: The chance of rolling a 6 with 6 dice is only about 62%

The formula is (p)^n<=X with X=certainty of ONLY MISSES. Let's say you want 95% certainty (100% would give infinite)
which means n=>log(,05)/log(.45) = 3,7166 stikes to get 1 hit 95% of the time
Adjust X as you seem fit

Yörgle · 10/27/11, 9:13 AM

Originally Posted by Acediar

Don't even try to understand stochastic

Their is a certain formula I'm trying to find to calculate how many tries you need with a set probability to get at least one hit you have to use here. You can't simply use 1/.45=2.22..
As an example: The chance of rolling a 6 with 6 dice is only about 62%

I'm pretty sure you are complicating things for no reason.
The equivalent of what you say with dices would be us looking the chances of "having a RE proc while using 10 FS/DS/RS". But what we're looking are simple probabilities : if we do 1000 FS, we'll have a number of proc close to 450.

And I'm pretty sure that's why the efficiency of RE is actually 0.45 : when you launch one RP-ability, you have 0.45 chance of having a proc, same for the next RP-ability (a launch are independant). In a 10 minutes long fight, you'll have 45% of your RP-ability giving a rune (again : launches are independant).

The bottom line being : I don't want to know what my chance of having ONE RE proc on many rolls is, but just how many RP ability, in average, I have to use to gain one rune.
Edit : In other words "I cast say X rp-abilities, I wanna know with which one I gain the highest amount of runes".

Tyvi · 10/27/11, 9:25 AM

My thoughts:

Tier 1:
We already know that the Demo Shout debuff is gone (and with it, Scarlet Fever). What we don't know is if Frost Fever is still a tanking debuff or not. Either way, Roiling Blood looks best for AoE tanking and Outbreak might be good for single target tanking unless diseases are just threat/damage. Corpse Explosion might be situationally useful for a damage boost here and there, but it is probably not going to end up as the go-to-standard for Blood.

Tier 2:
Frankly, I dislike this tier. A lot. For tanks the choice is obvious: Bone Shield for personal use or AMZ if your raid needs it. Noone is going to spec Lichborne for PvE because it is so much inferior.
Seriously, there is so much wrong with this tier it's not funny. DPS DKs running around with a permanent 20% damage reduction in raids? Check. Every DK having a raid CD? Check.
Additionally, it really, really sucks to lose abilities you already had so Blood tanks are going to lose Lichborne even though they specced back the other talent they lost to begin with (Bone Shield).
But hey, atleast Bone Shield got it's rune cost removed and it only took them one expansion to do it.

Tier 3:
Awesome tier.
Both Asphyxiate and Chillblains are good choices to go with. The latter works as ghetto-stun as well (root a mob, back out - think enraged Shamblers on Lich King) and Chillblains might synergize nicely with Corpse Explosion/Roiling Blood for non-Frost DKs.
Death's Advance is meh for PvE.

Tier 4:
Another stupid tier. Once again there is little choice for Blood. You pick Vampiric Blood which you already had before and try not to get annoyed about losing Death Pact which no spec will pick up. DPS will either go with VB or Death Siphon depending on the damage scaling.
Again, such a pity to lose a situationally cool ability like Death Pact but whatever.

Tier 5:
Runic Corruption wins hands down. Not much else to say here unless Blood Tap loses it's cool down, is off the GCD and can stack infinite charges in combat or something.

Tier 6:
Remorseless Winter is probably going to be prefered add/trash tanking tool for Blood. AoE stun is just yummy.
Desecrated Ground may have uses for bosses that incapacitate your DK as well (though being already a human, probably not that much).
And Gorefiend's Grasp will also be situationally useful.

Another great tier.

So in conclusion I am looking at three tiers that are great (3, 5 and 6), one tier I am indifferent about (1) and two more I absolutely loathe (2 and 4) and the latter all shares a common theme: They make you lose abilities you already had to begin with which leaves a bitter taste in your mouth when speccing for stuff to improve your character. What's the point of stripping away stuff you had just so you can respec it again but in the process lose abilities on top (Lichborne, Death Pact)?
I really don't think the tank CDs should be diluted like that and if you look at the other, non-DK classes they offer DPS good survivability abilities without butchering the respective tank tree to pull it off.

I really hope that these DK tiers were just not as far in development as, say, the Druid ones.

Womb · 10/27/11, 11:22 AM

In your comparison of rank 5 Talents you should take into account that Blood tap gives you a death rune which is clearly better than some random rune.

The difference will of course depend on the numbers of the various abilities but for instance as a frost dk a death rune will probably be worth much more than a blood rune (Edit: bad example, see posts below).

So while it is still clearly inferior to RC it might come quite close to RE (of course ignoring the silly 1min cooldown of BT).

Regarding RC there might be situations where you e.g. DC twice in a row for some reason (maybe you are not in melee range) which would slightly reduce the effectiveness of RC (Edit: it actually Stacks, see post below).

Both Points are however hard to evaluate right now.

Acediar · 10/27/11, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Womb

The difference will of course depend on the numbers of the various abilities but for instance as a frost dk a death rune will probably be worth much more than a blood rune.

Frost doesn't have blood runes, their blood runes are per default death runes.

Yörgle · 10/27/11, 12:53 PM

As Acediar said, it's not an issue for Frost DKs.
For Blood, we'll still have the "blood rune trick" which will be even less forgiving as we won't have to maintain BB (so basically, we spend the 2nd blood rune just before or just after the first one is recharged).
For UH DKs, I don't know which one is preferable, if the effeciencies were to be the same. I guess RC due to the fact that it's quite reliable...

Regarding RC there might be situations where you e.g. DC twice in a row for some reason (maybe you are not in melee range) which would slightly reduce the effectiveness of RC.

RC actually stacks : if you DC (and there's a proc, as it still is a proc on live) while you have X sec remaining on the previous RC buff, you'll gain a RC buff that lasts x + 3 sec. So it's not an issue luckily.

Groggan · 10/27/11, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

My thoughts:
Not much else to say here unless Blood Tap loses it's cool down, is off the GCD and can stack infinite charges in combat or something.

This I think is what Blizzard will have to do to make Blood Tap at all attractive. They'll likely also have to play with the number of required Blood Charges to control the power of it.

Basically, this would set it up so that Blood Tap is good when you want to manually control your free-rune availability (e.g., save up enough for 4 free runes, then right after the big boss hit use them to do 3 DSes instead of 1).

RE could be tweaked to be attractive for specs and play styles that use an abundance of Runic abilities (so that it is better than the straight 100% rune haste from RC in the same situation).

RC could then be tweaked to be better than RE when you don't have an abundance of RP (so for a blood tank that doesn't care to manually control their free-rune availability or a dps dk that somehow doesn't use much RP).

This way style choice is allowed and all are attractive for different reasons (control, probable strength, consistency).

Charybdis · 10/28/11, 1:00 AM

Some people might prefer Blood Tap over RE, assuming of course that there is no longer a CD on BT. The reason being is each RP ability used guarantees a Blood Charge. The other mechanics have a chance to activate an effect, which means RNG can screw over the DK.

The chances could use some work though. The difference between Blood Tap's 333/1000 compared to RC's 450/1000 is notable. Certainly players could game both abilities to get the most from them, but is the guarantee 1 in 3 no matter what worth the difference? I'd say that depends on the player, which is likely exactly what Blizz is trying to get at with these talents.

It's a difficult choice to make. Do I want the absolutely guaranteed runes? Do I want maybe a few more runes, but only a chance at getting them? Do I want a chance at faster rune regen instead?

I'd say Blizz did a damn good job coming up with these differences. I don't see the abilities themselves changing except for the percentage chances. Blood Tap's charge storage may be a hindrance, but I doubt they'd let it stack indefinitely.

As far as today's system goes, having infinite charge potential would essentially be worthless because no one in their right mind would use any more than five or so rune abilities in a row. It'd overcap our RP pool meaning we lose resources and thus lose potential ability use. My thought is they'll let use stack to get two or maybe three runes out of it and and just stop there since that would encourage us to keep mixing up rune and runic abilities instead of blowing a bunch of runes all at once.

As for taking away Blood's CD's then making us pick, it does feel a bit like salt in the wounds, but it might very well be necessary. If Blizz makes do on their promise to renovate tanking then every tank will be getting some sort of overhaul and rebalancing. Given their hints I'd bet they're making other tanks a bit more like DK's, which means either giving them a shit ton of CD's to cope or else finding a good middle ground where tanking isn't passive but no one will be in danger of being two-shot. Since the latter is more likely, they're lessening the CD's Blood will have because they'd be too powerful with the full set.

If it's for the better of the game then I have no problem giving up a CD or two.

Tyvi · 10/28/11, 8:10 AM

Infinite stacks was a bit of a hyperbole, I admit, but Blood Tap definitely needs to stack at the very least to 6-9 charges so you can get 2 or maybe even 3 Runes back in a row. Otherwise I don't see myself using it at all because the alternatives are just so much better.

And to address our tank CD:
We are what other classes should be in terms of active mitigation, are we not? It just doesn't make sense to actually remove abilities that you need to handle and plan for (i.e. Death Pact and Lichborne) instead of giving other classes similar abilities. Having to juggle your smaller, but more plentiful tank CDs was part of the DKs charm and considering that Blade Barrier is gone, Runic Empowerment can be specced out of and more signs leading to dumb down Blood DK tanking I am not impressed with the way things are going.

And that's not even considering the fact that they want DPS DKs to run around with permanent Bone Shield and Vampiric Blood. I mean, what's up with that?

Lerciolas · 10/28/11, 10:59 AM

I think with a little tweak Tier 5 could be great, without an hands down winner but with choices that affect playstyle.

Blood Tap could be great for burst if well implemented (as Liar said with the ability to reactivate more than one rune at the same time, like another Empower Rune Weapon), so a it could be used along with damaging cooldowns or in special phases on certain bosses.

Runic Empowerment could favor a more random and reactive gameplay, while Runic Corruption is a lesser but constant rune regeneration (and maybe still the safest choice, expecially as tank).

Tyvi · 10/28/11, 11:27 AM

Actually, Blood Tap activating only one Rune is fine as long as it's off the GCD and has no CD so you can just hit it twice if you need a pair. Having it activate more than one Rune if you don't want it to is also bad. :V