Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 3

EwokChilli · 10/28/11, 11:42 AM

Number will most likely be shifted so that BT isn't lightyears behind RE and RC.

The big difference between the "mechanics" is that BT doesn't punish you for using runic abilities while no runes are empty, but even as a Blood Tank I'd probably rather have RC to get more DS/minute. RC will probably continue to give the greatest benefit as long as 3 runes are off CD (which isn't difficult) and it doesn't require you to have fully depleted runes. RE will have it's place in any situation that you basically are HB spamming.

Lerciolas · 10/28/11, 12:04 PM

I saw it more like an aggressive cooldown to blow for burst DPS.
Having it with no cooldown and off gcd for sure makes it more versatile leaving the burst capability the same.

huntcaudata · 10/28/11, 12:27 PM

I'm trying to decide if Asphyxiate will be worth it for PvE. In case you missed it, the talent shown at Blizzcon had a "typo", and by that I mean it was almost completely wrong. At the Dev Q&A they explained that the talent will replace strangulate, and turn it into a stun instead of a silence, but it will otherwise work the same, i.e. instant cast, 5 second duration.

It seems to me that most of the time that will actually hurt in PvE since some things are interruptable, but not stunnable, and stunning trash is only helpful in the most niche of circumstances. Obviously it would still be handy on something similar to Rag.

Nevinyrral · 10/28/11, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by huntcaudata

I'm trying to decide if Asphyxiate will be worth it for PvE. In case you missed it, the talent shown at Blizzcon had a "typo", and by that I mean it was almost completely wrong. At the Dev Q&A they explained that the talent will replace strangulate, and turn it into a stun instead of a silence, but it will otherwise work the same, i.e. instant cast, 5 second duration.

It seems to me that most of the time that will actually hurt in PvE since some things are interruptable, but not stunnable, and stunning trash is only helpful in the most niche of circumstances. Obviously it would still be handy on something similar to Rag.

Pretty sure they said it'll silence if it cannot stun.

My tank on talents: Tanking
Tier1: Outbreak single target. Corpse explosion for aoe unless heavy movement. Why? because it does the same as roiling blood with damage done if a fresh corpse is near by. We'll see for fights
tier2: Bone Shield. IMO AMZ has never been a good PVE cooldown. It can be used with huge one hit abilities like a scythe on domo or stomp on rhyo if timed right as, from what I'm told, you can get the 75% reduction on everything even if it's more than the amount because of how blizzard handles it. It does not do well for sustained damage but again wait to see mechanics and what they do with this. I'd rather see it more a blood centric thing with a barrier effect.
tier3: Asphyxiate assuming crap won't be stunable and this works like a normal silence so the adds will still come in. Chillblains for kiting adds.
Tier4: Vampblood. Need I say more?
Tier5: Runic Corruption probably.
Tier6: Remorseless Winter because I want a cooler version of shockwave. I'll probably end up with gorefiend's grasp unless running with a druid tank. I do like that you can put this on an enemy or player and pull stuff to them. I could also see this being an issue. Imagine something like Maloriak where a DK fat fingers or miss clicks this and grips adds in while the other tank is running past picks up a straggler.

Charybdis · 10/28/11, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

Infinite stacks was a bit of a hyperbole, I admit, but Blood Tap definitely needs to stack at the very least to 6-9 charges so you can get 2 or maybe even 3 Runes back in a row. Otherwise I don't see myself using it at all because the alternatives are just so much better.

And to address our tank CD:
We are what other classes should be in terms of active mitigation, are we not? It just doesn't make sense to actually remove abilities that you need to handle and plan for (i.e. Death Pact and Lichborne) instead of giving other classes similar abilities. Having to juggle your smaller, but more plentiful tank CDs was part of the DKs charm and considering that Blade Barrier is gone, Runic Empowerment can be specced out of and more signs leading to dumb down Blood DK tanking I am not impressed with the way things are going.

And that's not even considering the fact that they want DPS DKs to run around with permanent Bone Shield and Vampiric Blood. I mean, what's up with that?

The theory of active mitigation is nice, but we aren't exactly there. DK's tend towards more reactive mitigation which will hopefully be changed a bit. As far as dumbing down the tanking goes, it's probably needed to some degree. Some people like the large set of CD's, but many more find it too much to work with. As Blizz has said numerous times, one of their goals for the game in general is for it to be like chess: Short time to learn, long time to master. Learning the basics of DK tanking does not take a short time.

The issue of losing CD's making sense is subjective. If Blizz decided to give CD's similar to today's DK kit to every class, they'd have a nightmare of balance issues. Instead it is easier and more cost effective to take the CD's away and tweak the class so that it doesn't feel like those are as much of a loss.

Was Bone Shield such a big thing when it was Unholy only? Not really. Likewise, Vampiric Blood probably won't be such a big deal. It has a cooldown after all, and they'll undoubtedly tweak the CD.

Tyvi · 10/28/11, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Charybdis

Was Bone Shield such a big thing when it was Unholy only? Not really. Likewise, Vampiric Blood probably won't be such a big deal. It has a cooldown after all, and they'll undoubtedly tweak the CD.

That was back when healer mana literally did not matter one bit. I don't know what their plans are for MoP but if they are not going to make mana matter, then I don't see the point of giving every class such huge survival buffs through the talents either. It wouldn't make sense. And if Blizzard isn't going to make mana matter, then your raid leader will by just bringing less healers and having their DPS just properly CD. This stuff makes a difference in DPS tuning.

It also makes no sense to tune down CDs like Vampiric Blood and Bone Shield because tanks are going to use the same abilities as DPS DKs. If they are going to make them crap then what's the point of a) handing them out as a "tough" choice and b) removing Death Pact and Lichborne from Blood while on top weakening VB and BS?

I also have to disagree with the fact that DKs are not an active mitigation tank. Maybe we are just not using the same definition of it (I take it you consider preventive measures like pushing Holy Shield or Shield Block as active while I consider the former and Death Strike just as active since it's not passive) but I like the class as it is. I can't speak for everyone, naturally, but I do hope DKs stay pretty much the same as they are now and instead Block capping gets broken so we won't have to deal with EH issues in MoP.

I mean, why dumb down all tank classes? If they keep the DK as it is then people who like the more advanced/reactive/active (whatever you want to call it) playstyle will stick with this class (or reroll to it even because they find that compelling). There will be 5 tanking classes in MoP and every one should play differently and we already have this for DKs. In addition, who is being helped if Blizzard changes how tank DKs work every expansion? Pick something and stick with it so people can adjust and flock to the classes they like.

(Either way, we probably wouldn't even have this discussion if DKs just got more abilities to pick from through the talents instead of having to spec back what they already had to begin with while losing some of them. Tank balance right now really isn't so broken that we'd have to revamp how Blood DKs work and which CDs they should have. Just fix block capping and that's that.)

Charybdis · 10/28/11, 7:48 PM

I didn't say DK's weren't active, but it's going more into the semantics of active versus reactive. A DK's standard abilities are based on taking a hit then healing back up. We then get shielding based on the amount healed, so in essence our core mechanic is almost entirely reacting to what the mob does. Our CD's make up somewhat for needing to react, but it can be argued that those aren't truly active.

I didn't say all tanks should be dumbed down. Obviously Warriors and Paladins could use a redo since they're quite easy to play. Druids are in between from the looks of it. DK's, however, have a steep learning curve. Reading through the Blue posts it seems they'd like to ease up on that curve but still keep a good (re)active tanking model.

It makes pretty good sense to retune the CD's-turned-talents when we'll be getting a lot more core abilities through leveling the spec. We'll be getting compensation. There's also the fact that our current CD's might be too powerful in whatever new model of tanking they're developing. Yes it sucks to lose power once you've tasted it, but sometimes retuning that power is necessary.

Blizzard will change DK tanking until they get it right. Expansions come every 1 1/2 to 2 years, which is plenty of time to learn a class. Sure plenty of people might not understand why it was changed, but considering Blizz is a multibillion dollar corporation I'd say they have a lot more resources to know what's going on than pretty much anyone else.

Tyvi · 10/29/11, 6:06 AM

We don't really know what we will get by picking Blood yet, for all we know we will get nothing in the way of CDs but this isn't going anywhere.
Either way, this is just speculation so I am willing to drop it but do keep in mind that Blizz is not infallible. Having been in the Cata Alpha, everything from Block cap being a problem, Raise Ally being turned into a combat res, Warriors getting a 10 sec interrupt, old Virulence getting made baseline etc was predicted and it took them quite a while to actually realize that and implement in the end. This is a big reason I am not just willing to believe things will be changed for the best and that us players don't know jack either.

Anyway, some more suggestions that could make some of our tiers more worthwhile:

They could make Tier 2 the raid CD tier by replacing Lichborne with the old Acclimation and turning the bonus into something raid wide (either keep it passive or make it an active ability), replace Bone Shield with Mark of Blood and keep AMZ as is.

Tier 5 could get Death Pact replaced and kept baseline. Instead you'd get a Death Pact upgrade that doesn't kill your pet (looking at the wording, that's already the case), slightly reduced CD and maybe giving you some form of damage reduction for X seconds after casting it as well. There are many ways to make it less bland.

Bringing back the old Vendetta (+4% max health heal) whenever you kill something would also fit pretty well in the current talent design.

EDIT: I also wonder what's going to happen to Runic Power Mastery. That talent was pretty useful for all specs.

Charybdis · 10/29/11, 4:17 PM

I have a feeling RPM will get baked into Frost's spec ability line. Assassination rogues have the "Assassin's Resolve" spec ability which used to be a talent, albeit deep in in the tree enough that other specs couldn't get it.

Acclimation would be nice, but it looks like Blizz is phasing out resistances in some areas at least. For example, they mentioned they'd like to get rid of resistance buffs like a paladin's Resistance aura and the shaman equivalent. Perhaps the ability to increase resistances will remain on some items and through elixirs or flasks.

Having Death Pact be baseline then have a talent to improve it would be pretty cool. Something akin to a warlock's Demon Soul ability would definitely feel powerful.

Neepall · 10/31/11, 10:17 AM

Thoughts, questions, and assumptions from the talents. Overall, still mixed feelings, and some changes probably should and will happen to them. For the first view though, in all honesty, the grand scheme of it seems fitting. All things considering a fight by fight basis will still need to occur.

T1 Disease spreading. Monkeys from Africa all around.

Rolling blood-
A good QoL change for blood, since +damage stuff will be baseline may not be as big of difference between aoe and st tanking now. Interested to see if it could go back to the blood dot rolling/refreshing.
Unholy may get some good use out of this for aoe centric fights, as outbreak is rarely used.
Explosion-
If that would be the max level tooltip it seems to be fairly undertuned for it's cost. Possibly dropping it to 10(ish?) rp, may put on par, but I don't really see much use out of it. Barring funsie action.
Outbreak-
Frost of course, with RB change I feel that would be better for blood. Unholy seems this would get used more in pvp.

T2- Judgement Day - Reactive, raid, and personal cooldowns, respectively.

LB-
Leaning more towards pvp, sad to lose it as a cd though.
AMZ-
A niche cd. Still seems like it would only be useful in few situations. Possible to see an increase of absorb or cd reduction.
BS-
Yes it is sad to have to spec into this now, but falling in line with the other two above it should be this way. Kinda the choices of what you need more at the time. This kinda has the feel now like the old idea of mt/single target tank(blood) Aoe tank(frost) and mitigation tank(unholy) choices we had in early wrath.

T3 Movement, snare, and control.

Death's advance-
Unless a boss starts snaring may only get to see some action in pvp. Even then, chilli is stronger.
Chilblains-
Add kiting Not much to say here.
Asphyxiate-
Overall may turn to be the better choice. Strangulate gets a stun. My strangulate and warstomp get used often, so I see valid uses for this.

T4 Self healing.
This tier will probably see some changes in the months to come. VB would be the better all around choice, currently.
Note VB's hp is 15% increase and healing taken by 25% in the preview so glyph will probably be gone or possibly be made to be similar to rallying cry.

T5 Frankly math and fight would have to be the factor here.

T6 Party time.

This is where it gets interesting to see how things work out.
GG-
First off, great acronym for it as stated already. IIRC Blizzard stated this will replace DG like asphyxiate does. So it wouldn't be too far fetched to see it keep the taunt of dg. If it does I will probably die a lot, but that is neither here nor there. If it doesn't keep it; some great utility has potential to arise from it. (or havoc) BG's are probably going to be hell with this.
Remorseless Winter-
Extremely excited for this being frost MS. 1 min cd would put it in line with PoF; so could possibly fall into rotation if scales well enough.
Desecrated Ground-
Seems to be directed at pvp, but both of the others seem to be on par with the other 2(for pvp purposes). Could this work on mechanics like Cho'gall worship? Probably limited pve use, but Blizzard may throw a curve ball. Could be seeing more fights with mechanics like that.

Yörgle · 11/01/11, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Neepall

T5 Frankly math and fight would have to be the factor here.

Maths already done one page 1 ! ;-)
(Even with the generalized formula to compare talents when they tweak values)

Tyvi · 11/01/11, 5:03 PM

There is more to it than just math though, atleast for tanks.

Even if Runic Corruption is slightly worse than Runic Empowerment it would still be prererable because it's not RNG dependent and it increases our DPS because it benefits Blood Runes as well which you don't have to game (and who is going to say no to "free" DPS let alone more RP from being able to Heart Strike more often?).

The only unknown factor currently is Blood Tap. It has the potential to be freakin awesome if it's off the GCD, has no CD and can stack enough charges to refund up to 2 or 3 Runes immediately. It would allow us to compensate damage spikes with damage lulls which would be great if they keep the Blood Shield design as it is (which I hope they do): Build charges when you are getting full absorbs/avoidance streak and then cash them in when the boss connects every hit etc.

I am actually quite excited to see what will happen to Blood Tap and I hope I won't be disappointed because Blood Tap could also turn out to be utterly shit if Blizz doesn't work it out properly.

EDIT:

To give an idea of how I expect things to work out:

RE will turn out to give you the most Runes on average per Runic Power dump.

RC is going to be the second best because it trades some RNG for some reliability (you can't choose which Rune you will get). This has to come at some cost or RE wouldn't even be in the running.

BT is going to give you the least Runes on average because it trades even more RNG for the most control/on demand Rune availability (but, as said above, this has to have a deeper reserve than just 1 Rune max or it's not going to be worthwhile).

Even in this scenario, I would wager tanks would either go for RC or BT depending on the boss and your needs. DPS specs might stick with RE but they will most likely also go with RC in most cases.

Tyvi · 11/09/11, 9:47 PM

So apparently the Demo Shout debuffs stay in but instead the attack speed slow goes away in MoP. Blizz wasn't sure which of the diseases would apply that debuff but here is to hoping it will be Frostfever, simply because it can be applied from range.

That also means Outbreak is back to being useful for tanks in 5.0 for single targets.

Kaejin · 11/10/11, 1:28 AM

Death Knight Talents disappointing for tanks - Forums - World of Warcraft

As of our current plan for 5.0, Blood Tap has no cooldown, is off the GCD, and can store up to 6 charges.

Yörgle · 11/10/11, 10:31 AM

Meh... The only way you can use it correctly is by having only your B runes on CD and use it twice in a row.
For a less efficient talent (by far) and given how complicated to achieve that without having F or U runes off CD for too long, I really think it's not worth at all.

The only situation I can imagine is if you know you'll need several DS in a row at a specific moment (and for that, we might as well save ERW for when needed).
Of course the numbers may change but at the moment, RC is the rank 5 winner by far.

Good news that tanking debuffs are not gone at all.