Blood Tanking - Actively Mitigating since before it was cool - Page 2

SellionEU · 08/30/12, 7:15 PM

Mists of Pandaria Beta - Build 16030 - "Blood Presence now increases Stamina by 25%, up from 8%." - Will this allow us to skip some of the gemming for EH in the beginning of the xpac, or was our HP just way too low on beta @ lvl 90? Our guild aren't doing any Beta testing so I don't know. That is, either way, quite a significant boost.

Tyvi · 08/31/12, 2:06 AM

Good news everyone, Ghostcrawler has announced that Empower Rune Weapon and Army of the Dead will now reset for every raid encounter. For us that means there is literally no reason not to use Army and ERW atleast once per encounter which is a pretty awesome change.

Source: Beta Class Balance Analysis Pt. II - Forums - World of Warcraft

Originally Posted by SellionEU

Mists of Pandaria Beta - Build 16030 - "Blood Presence now increases Stamina by 25%, up from 8%." - Will this allow us to skip some of the gemming for EH in the beginning of the xpac, or was our HP just way too low on beta @ lvl 90? Our guild aren't doing any Beta testing so I don't know. That is, either way, quite a significant boost.

Our health was fine but our damage reduction through Blood Presence and armor wasn't, yet we didn't take more overall damage than the other tanks.
The problem we had was that even though we were expected to (and could have) Death Striked after a big hit, we'd be dead before we got the chance to do so. The health buff helps us survive this hit now and we can use our active mitigation abilities just like the other tanks that could do it preemptively (and it doesn't change the overall damage taken either which a buff to Blood Presence's damage reduction would have done).
For example, stuff like Thrash from the Sha of Fear encounter does quite a lot of damage because you need to take 3 boss hits all at once and it happens roughly every 10 seconds so it is easy to time ShotR/Shield Block etc for it (but too frequent to just CD through it all with longer cooldowns). It's also easy to save a Death Strike for it but you have to survive it first since you will not always be able to get a Blood Shield up beforehand (which is what you would have had to do if you would lack the EH for it; but this particular boss has a 2.5 swing timer so you the maximum amount of hits you could get a Blood Shield from before the Thrash would have been 2 and that is assuming you didn't avoid any hits which in the worst case would give you a minimum sized Death Strike/Blood Shield which isn't going to help much against the following Thrash).

Valhauros · 08/31/12, 7:08 AM

Props on the guide, is very thorough and nicely organized.

When I read the new build's buff on Blood Presence, I thought it was just a typo. Are they actually increasing the percentage by 17%? That's a LOT. I already uninstalled the beta to get ready on live for Pandaria, but last I checked, my tank gear put me on 486k hit points (and I didn't have BiS gear). How much are the hit points up to now with the buff? Also, if the buff stays, I guess that would make Death Knights, by far, the highest effective health tanks in the game (since it also directly buffs the effects of mastery and avoidance).

Ignorant question: Is there any scenario (raid, dungeons, pvp, challenges or even soloing) where using [Souldrinker] (due to highly increased life) and [Bone-Link Fetish] (due to the removal of vengeance cap) would be useful or acceptable? I'm not a supporter of dual-wielding nostalgia, but I'd like to know if these items could be used effectively in the future (Same as Vial for Druid/Monk Tanks).

Otou · 08/31/12, 9:21 AM

Originally Posted by Valhauros

Also, if the buff stays, I guess that would make Death Knights, by far, the highest effective health tanks in the game.

Depends on how much mastery guardians have, but I'm pretty sure this puts us ahead in most situations.

No to Souldrinker. Dual wield is a huge damage loss, stat loss, and now runic power loss thanks to Scent of Blood. Drain Lifes for around 10k (1.7% of 600k) won't come close to making up for it.

Hell yes to Bone Link Fetish. I wish I had one, because vengeance + whirling maw procs would be amazing.

krekot · 08/31/12, 11:02 AM

While using DRW and casting Blood Boil me own diseases are refreshed but that put by DRW aren't. Is this intend?

Reniat · 08/31/12, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Tyvi

[top] Balancing out Dodge and Parry

The diminishing returns on Dodge and Parry work differently in Mists: Dodge diminishes much, much faster than Parry now. Unfortunately, there is no easy rule as we had in Cataclysm where we just tried to keep both ratings close to each other.
Depending on your Dodge%, you would need to get 2-3 more Parry for Dodge to become better again. Theck put it pretty nicely here so allow me to quote him instead:

Source: Avoidance Diminishing Returns in MoP – Part 3 | Sacred Duty

Remember to substract 4% Parry in the comparison if you are using Swordshattering because this avoidance is not affected by diminishing returns.

just fyi, you can take the info from Theck's site and condense into a pretty easy to use formula.

in his site he shows formula for the optimal parry/dodge ratio (%s):
Total Parry/Total Dodge = (Cp/Cd) - ((Cp/Cd)Base Dodge - Base parry)/Total Dodge

Cp = 235.5
Cd = 65.631440
Base Dodge = 5.01
Base Parry = 3.22 (including parry from base strength. 3.21 for gnomes)

Parry%/dodge% = 235.5/65.631440 - ((235.5/65.31440)*5.01-3.00)/dodge%

Parry%/dodge% = 3.588 - 14.14.757/dodge%

Parry% = 3.588*dodge% - 14.757

factor in SS and you get the desired parry% = 3.588*dodge% - 10.757 (or parry% = 3.588*dodge% - 10.767 if you are a gnome)

Heres a macro version:

/run d=GetDodgeChance() n=3.22 if UnitRace("player")=="Gnome" then n=n-.01 end p=235.5*d/65.631440-((235.5/65.631440)*5.01-n)+4 DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Ideal parry for current dodge: "..string.format("%.2f",p))

Without Swordshattering:

/run d=GetDodgeChance() n=3.22 if UnitRace("player")=="Gnome" then n=n-.01 end p=235.5*d/65.631440-((235.5/65.631440)*5.01-n) DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Ideal parry for current dodge: "..string.format("%.2f",p))

It will still be easier to use a bot, but it still requires less effort than going over the entire blog to figure out what your dodge and parry are supposed to be at.

yoolen · 08/31/12, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tyvi

That's a pretty good list. I always considered our resource generation to be less prone to unlucky boss avoidance simply because our Runes always regenerated and Rune Strike is easy to cap (and if it misses we only lose a small portion of RP).
However with Scent of Blood you are probably right since that gives us yet another source of resource generation which - in addition to Rune Strike/T5 procs - pretty much rivals the resource generation of other tanks.
If that assessment is true, then Death Strike should not be subject to boss avoidance after all. Though, for me, that is only a slight buff until I am geared up enough to gear for accuracy again because I like the reliability of being spell hit capped, of Rune Strike never missing and simply contributing more to DPS.
But nonetheless something to keep an eye out for once Blizzard releases the new patch that fixes the tooltips for the stealth buffed/nerfed abilities.

Going into more detail for the classes I have at 85 and have tried out since 5.0.4 dropped:

Resource sensitive active mitigation by class (I've played all of them at 85 in dungeons, but I'm not sure if I got everything, these are just the abilities I remembered). Resources (HP, Rage, Chi, RP) are generated through abilities now for everyone, including warriors and druids, for those who weren't aware of this change.
Paladins: SotR - 30% damage reduction, limited by Holy Power; class has passive block
Warriors: Shield Block - 30%(base?) physical damage reduction; Shield Barrier - Damage absorption based on AP; both limited by high rage cost (60); class has passive block
Druids: Savage Defense - 45% dodge, 3 charges refreshing sequentially, 9 seconds per charge; Frenzied Regeneration - Convert rage to health; both abilities limited by high rage cost (60)
Monks: ? Haven't played with this class so I can't properly speak to its abilities; seems like it uses Chi and Energy (generated by using abilities) to activate a large number of damage reduction CDs.
Death Knights: Blood Shield - Generated by a successful Death Strike (based on planned changes), based on the amount healed, which in turn is based on incoming damage; limited by rune regeneration, runes not returned on miss/dodge.

Surprisingly, I found paladins to be exceptionally hard to play (in the sense of keeping up SotR for a significant amount of uptime) which might be a result of not being used to the new rotation (CS, X, Y). The rage based classes were very spammy and fun to play in that I could see my DPS having a direct effect on my survival, without really needing to pool rage. I played all these classes with high avoidance/mitigation and only around 3-4% hit/exp.

My Death Knight runs very, very low hit/exp (2/2.4) and looking back on my parses for Heroic DS on Wednesday I saw that a not insignificant number of my Deathstrikes were misses/dodges. I never really noticed a big chunk of incoming damage (35% nerf and BS still bugged :|) and spent most of my time just trying to maximize my DPS. I did see a few misses on Mutated Tentacles leading up into impales (which would have been disastrous if Blood Shield actually didn't go up - I usually don't use cooldowns because the shield is normally enough) so I can see how not being hit/exp capped would contribute significantly to surviving vs. dying against a hard hitting progression boss.

I don't have enough experience playing the other tanks to give a fair assessment of how well they're performing vs. DKs (and I don't want this to turn into a discussion of which tanking class is the best or which got screwed the most), but given that DKs rely on a limited set of resources that regenerate over time (and through RNG - although I'm guessing Blood Tap should remove some/all? of that) I feel like Blood Shield not proccing on dodges and misses is unreasonable. We're in the same boat as paladins for resource generation, but unlike them we don't have a passive shield block; on top of that all the other tanks can actively use their mitigation to reduce/avoid all incoming damage whereas we're forced to be hit before we can do anything. The 25% stam buff in Blood Presence may help to alleviate some of this, and I guess we'll have to wait for some live numbers to see if it all works out.

I'll be playing around with the Tier 1 talents later tonight (I found Plague Leech to be clunky and hard to use well as a tanking cooldown) and I'll probably have a few questions on how to use it properly because I'm probably doing it wrong, lol. Also gonna try reforging to hit/exp cap and see how that goes.

yoolen · 08/31/12, 3:54 PM

Originally Posted by krekot

While using DRW and casting Blood Boil me own diseases are refreshed but that put by DRW aren't. Is this intend?

I believe this is working as intended as Pestilence and Blood Boil work on your diseases, not those of the DRW; also can you imagine rolling 4 diseases on AOE packs? lol.

Reniat · 08/31/12, 4:17 PM

Actually pestilence does spread DRW's diseases, making it possible to have 4 diseases on each target, and doing so will lead to insane burst aoe threat. The pestilence triggered from Rolling Blood however, does not affect DRW's diseases, so use pestilence manually once if you want to spread DRW's diseases even with Rolling Blood.

yoolen · 08/31/12, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Reniat

Actually pestilence does spread DRW's diseases, making it possible to have 4 diseases on each target, and doing so will lead to insane burst aoe threat. The pestilence triggered from Rolling Blood however, does not affect DRW's diseases, so use pestilence manually once if you want to spread DRW's diseases even with Rolling Blood.

WTF, I thought they changed it when they did the pestilence change in Wrath (so that I wouldn't spread stuff like Devouring Plague). God, no wonder I always did so much more AOE damage on trash packs when I had DRW up. I never bothered to tab through the stuff quickly to see the other debuffs and Tidyplates only shows your personal debuffs. You learn something new every day.

Edit: Did a bit of reading on the subject. It appears that this only works if DRW is up when you cast pestilence (the DRW is the one mimicking the pestilence and spreading them itself). If you were to pestilence again later it would not spread the DRW's diseases. If you were to Blood Boil at 9s in before the DRW expires, it should replicate the BB and refresh the diseases (assuming the DRW's BB behaves the same as your BB for refreshing diseases).

Otou · 09/01/12, 12:00 AM

After they nerfed DRW's ability to copy all spells the DK cast in Wrath, they gave it a set list of DK abilties. DRW doesn't have access to Blood abilties, it just has a list of abilties it's allowed to use. If a DK uses an ability on that list, DRW also uses it.

So DRW doesn't know Roiling Blood or Scarlet Fever, even if the casting DK has them.

Yavvy · 09/01/12, 6:59 AM

Will Might of Ursoc put you at 15% during Purgatory, or is it counted as a heal?

Phenomena · 09/04/12, 8:53 AM

Great work Tyvi!
I use this macro for Death Pact and Raise Dead works great if you want an one press instant heal keybind, like when you get Shroud of Purgatory or similar panic heal.

#showtooltip Death Pact
/cast Raise Dead
/cast !Death Pact

Smiegel · 09/04/12, 4:55 PM

I really enjoyed reading your tanking guide and will continue to use it as a guideline throughout MoP. So keep up the awesome work!

I have a question concerning runeforge choices. I read the section that went over it and understand that if you need more EH to take Stoneskin otherwise to take Swordshattering. You also mentioned that if EH or mitigation/avoidance isn't a concern to take Fallen Crusader.

Just how far behind Stoneskin and Swordshattering is Fallen Crusader in terms of survivibility? I understand that FC relies much more on RNG where the other two provide more static stats. But although small FC does provide a chance to heal as well as an increase to parry through the 15% strength proc.

I kind of just feel that FC offers more in terms of the plethora of things a tank needs to do to be succesful

From your list.

1) Survive.
2) Hold aggro.
3) Minimize damage taken and healing required (through self heals, damage reduction CDs and such).
4) Support the raid with CDs (i.e. Anti-Magic Zone, Glyph of Death Coil).
5) Deal as much damage as possible.

While Stoneskin and Swordshattering only improves #1, and#3 I feel that FC improves #1,#3, (although to a lesser extent), #2, and #5.

I know this all probably depends on the boss/mechanics, etc, etc., but am I way off for thinking that FC should be a viable tanking runeforge choice?

Thanks in advance.

Tyvi · 09/04/12, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Smiegel

1) Survive.
2) Hold aggro.
3) Minimize damage taken and healing required (through self heals, damage reduction CDs and such).
4) Support the raid with CDs (i.e. Anti-Magic Zone, Glyph of Death Coil).
5) Deal as much damage as possible.

While Stoneskin and Swordshattering only improves #1, and#3 I feel that FC improves #1,#3, (although to a lesser extent), #2, and #5.

I know this all probably depends on the boss/mechanics, etc, etc., but am I way off for thinking that FC should be a viable tanking runforge choice?

Unfortunately, Fallen Crusader isn't very good at helping you survive or minimize healing required because the healing proc isn't generally very useful due to the rather low value and randomness of it. The 15% Strength proc has a pretty high uptime but it's not going to beat the 4% parry from Swordshattering either. To fully benefit from FC's heal you would have to be tanking something that can't kill you quickly so your healers can keep you at lower health values without issues. But the thing with these scenarios is that you aren't at risk of dying anyway and any healer could easily keep you up there - with or without FC (or any Runeforge, really). On anything that hits harder, the FC heal isn't going to make healers change their healing method because a 3% max health might proc here and there.

So in the end, I would treat FC as a DPS enchant only that happens to have some very minor survival benefits. If you decide to enchant FC, you should do it because you want the DPS and treat the bonus parry/heal every now and then as a welcome bonus - but nothing more.