Blood Tanking - Actively Mitigating since before it was cool - Page 4

Reniat · 09/09/12, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by ThrackDK

The point of the log was to show you how in even a short fight you get enough runestrikes to make a difference in DSs and that was it.

And again your bringing it back to DS/min. As far as the comment that we are theorycrafting for 35% nerfed content, if we were theorycrafting for that we would recommend RE, since theres no reason to not be focusing on DPS at this point. My guild is going through on 0% this week, and the damage is not high enough that the lost DS of using RC is going to kill you (privided you use the other death strikes correctly). In fact, my UI messed up and I lost the ability to use Blood Tap for the entirety of morchok, and I did just fine. Granted that is the first boss, but it is still a 25H boss with 0% nerf.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, since we've already laid out the value for RC and you seem to not accept those values.

Otou · 09/10/12, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by ThrackDK

I think people are getting confused with tanking a 35% nerfed DS with 407 ILs where they have the luxury of not really taking that much damage in the first place. In true prenerf hardmode progression I would love to see how often DKS are just sitting on a DS and waiting to use resources because they are taking no damage. I know that the physical damage of all of the first 6(excluding Yorsahj with is almost exclusively magic damage) was astronomically high prenerf.

No. It's the reverse. With the Aspescts nerf in place (and plenty of gear), you can afford to not care when you cast Death Strike. The bosses hit for so little, that they can't realistically kill you.

Without the nerf/gear in place, Death Striking early would kill a DK. If we waste our runes, by not waiting to take significant / telegraphed damage, we would have no resources when we do get hit. If we can't instantly respond to the damage we take, it only gets worse. On Heroic Morchock, Zon'ozz, and Blackhorn (the only non-gimmick tank encounters), that worse means death. The harder the boss hits, the more important timing DS is.

In response to this, we time our DS around damage intake. We did this even with RE, which meant we wasted resources to accomplish it. Even if we had to overcap runic power / runes, we didn't DS early. If we DS early, we die.

RC and BT allow you to time DS without wasting resources. Which means you DS more often, while timing your DS around damage intake.

ThrackDK · 09/10/12, 2:02 AM

We should table this until Mogushan Hardmode Progression so that we can compare logs. I think that data pretty much trumps all and if you can get similiar mitigation/heal numbers from RC that would be awsome to see the data and how mathmatically it correlates directly to your survivability. Im also curious how many of you were planning on running RC for HM progression over BT/RE.

Otou · 09/10/12, 4:30 AM

Abilties to add to the encounter specific section. A couple of these might be more dps DK focused than Blood.

Stone Guard
You can use Anti-Magic Shell to pop the Cobalt Mines. It will shield you from the damage and root effect, as well as remove the trap from the encounter.

You can use Every Man to break the root from the same Cobalt Mine. If you can afford another cool down to protect you from the damage (or Cobalt petrification is active), Every Man will let you escape the root.

Spirit Kings
You can use IBF, Desecrated Ground, or Every Man to break the stun effect from Subetai the Swift's Pinning Arrow. This does prioritize ranged players, so DKs "shouldn't" get hit by it. If it does happen, stun breaks will free you.

Elegon
You can use Anti-Magic Zone to protect you and your group from the Celestial Protector's Total Annihilation. Total Annihilation is similar to Ultraxion's Hour of Twilight, in that 1-3 players (depending on raid size), need to be hit by it.

← Click Here

The protector casts this upon death, and it hits all players in line of sight. Objects on the main platform are out of line of sight with objects off the platform. By dragging it off the platform, the protector becomes out of line of sight. 1-3 players need to be hit by Total Annihilation, or the protector will wipe the raid with Catostrophic Anomaly. Just like Heroic Ultraxion's Hour of Twilight, Heroic Elegon's Total Annihilation applies a 2 minute de-buff. If you're hit by Total Annihilation with Destabilized active, you're instantly killed. This is the encounter's main tank swap mechanic.

Will of the Emperor
You can use Anti-Magic Shell, Anti-Magic-Zone, or Purgatory to soak the Titan Saprk's Energy of Creation on heroic mode. This is more of a dps utility, since tanks will eventually be picking up the bosses. You will need to be in Blood Presence to soak with ams, and Purgatory will require you to receive a powerful heal like Lay on Hands or Void Shift.

Imperial Vizier Zor'lok
You can Dark Simulacrum players controlled with Convert. You can't control your actions while under the effects of convert, so what you get will be pretty random. If the player is broken out quickly, and regains control, you can request an ability.

Amber-Shaper Un'sok
You can use Dark Simulacrum on players afflicted with Reshape Life. If used right before they break free, you should be able to communicate with them, and copy one of their class abilities.

Grand Empress Shek'zeer
Chilblains and Remorseless Winter can be used for kiting the Set'thik Windblades.

← Click Here

The adds during the 2nd phase of Shek'zeer recieve a damage taken/dealt bonus for being within 8 yards of each other. The Windblades are susceptible to slows and stuns, but the Reaver is not. This means that while tanking the Reaver, you can kite the Windblades that aren't fixated.

Protectors of the Endless
You can use Anti-Magic Shell to block the de-buff from Lightning Prison. You can also break it with IBF, Desecrated Ground, or Every Man. Before being stunned, you gain the typical "You're being targeted!" arrow. This tells you that Elder Regail is targeting you. Lightning Prison is only cast on non-tanks, so Blood doesn't need to worry about it.

Lei Shi
Remorseless Winter can be used to stun the Animated Protectors. They deal significant tank damage, but are susceptible to most control effects. (You could probably Chilblains them as well, but I haven't tested this myself.)

Also the mechanics on Blade Lord and Wind Lord need to be swapped. For a while in Beta, Wind Lord and Blade Lord had their names incorrectly reversed (too many Lords I guess). Wind Lord is the one with the swarm adds, Blade Lord is the lone insect with a large sword on his arm.

Tyvi · 09/10/12, 12:50 PM

Thanks, Otou, I'll add that in a bit.

You mentioning the Blade/Wind Lord switch made me recheck Recklessness on the Wind Lord encounter and it seems to have been changed. The 300% bonus damage from normal difficulty seems to have been replaced by a stacking +50% damage done/33% damage taken debuff with unlimited duration (Encounter details) which most likely drops Death Siphon as an option for that fight (for survival only, not damage; see below).

The heroic debuff is still there though, at 600% bonus damage taken. So I wondered if Death Siphon is even still worth it compared to Death Strike or Heart Strike just for the damage and here is what I found:

Assumptions: 120k AP (which is probably on the lower end), [Starshatter] as our weapon (average damage range is 15070), Weakened Armor for a 32% damage reduction from boss armor, Curse of Elements (+5% spell damage) and Physical Vulnerability (+4% physical damage).

Death Strike:
(((120000/14)*3.3 + 15070)* 2.8 + 2094)*0.68 * 1.04 = 87332 damage for 2 Runes
43355,71428571429

Heart Strike:
(((120000/14)*3.3 + 15070)* 1.15 *1.3 + 681)*0.68 * 1.04 = 46320 damage for 1 Rune, 92640 damage for 2 Runes

Death Siphon:
(120000 * 0.4 + 4985)*1.05 = 55634 damage per Rune, 111268 damage for 2 Runes

Normalized to Death Strike at 100% and 2 Runes, we get:

Death Strike: 100%
Heart Strike: 106%
Death Siphon: 127%

For AP breaking points:

- You need 55870 AP for 2xDeath Siphon to do the same damage as 1xDeath Strike with a T14 normal weapon
- You need 65463 AP for 1xDeath Siphon to do the same damage as 1xHeart Strike with a T14 normal weapon

So for heroic with the 600% damage taken debuff it is clear that Death Siphon is ideal to not only keep you up but also do the highest possible damage during his vulnerability phases. One Death Siphon alone will do ~390k healing which should easily keep you alive.

I am actually more worried about Death Siphon eclipsing Heart Strike with a T14N weapon at pretty much base values (65k AP is nothing since you have like 30-40k without any Vengeance). In my opinion, Death Siphon should have remained inbetween Heart Strike and Death Strike in terms of damage for the whole trading-survival-for-damage thing to make sense.
Death Siphon just makes Heart Strike look bad now that the latter got nerfed.

Reniat · 09/13/12, 4:44 PM

Your math is a bit off for heart strike. The 30% increase from diseases is applied to the total damage, so you would put the 1.3 on the outside of the parenthesis. It's only a difference of 204.3 damage, but I thought i'd point that out because i'm obnoxious like that. Also you said in the guide that 2x heart strike is now less than 1x death strike, which while close isn't the case. in your own math above you show that 2x heart strike is still better than a single death strike after you count in the bonuses from disease damage for all levels of attack power (albeit not by much).

Tyvi · 09/16/12, 5:36 AM

I expanded the Dark Simulacrum section to include a list of copyable spells. Let me know if you find any errors in actual raids or if you have any suggestions for spells to add in there.

Also, I am going to wait until the next patch or 2-3 more days (whatever occurs first) before I rewrite the whole Death Siphon/Heart Stike/Death Strike damage bit and add AP breakpoints into the OP just to make sure the changes actually stick. I am still hoping for a Glyph of Focused Shield option for Heart Strike though.

And lastly, have you guys seen Critho in Stormwind yet? He makes for a great tanking dummy to train timing Death Strikes with or testing out different talents on.

kow · 09/19/12, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Yavvy

Will Might of Ursoc put you at 15% during Purgatory, or is it counted as a heal?

I never saw an answer to this, but I've been wondering the same thing. Anyone know? I have no access to test this myself, or I would

Otou · 09/19/12, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by kow

I never saw an answer to this, but I've been wondering the same thing. Anyone know? I have no access to test this myself, or I would

It's not an actual heal, so it should ignore Purgatory completely. Technically you're at 1hp for the duration of Purgatory, so it would set you to 15% of your max hp. You'd still die if you don't heal the de-buff off though.

Yavvy · 09/21/12, 12:19 PM

The important bit is that Purgatory ends the moment it's healed off. This means it could leave you mortal with next to no hp, about to get smashed into the ground. It's not enough to heal off the absorb; you need to get back up from 1 hp as well. If MoU puts you at 15% you'd always leave Purgatory with at least 15% health, minimizing your chance of getting 1-shot when Purgatory ends.

Khiandor · 10/03/12, 7:55 AM

I dont get the "The value of accuracy stats" bit. Even when deathstrike misses or is dodged/parried, you still get the full heal & bloodshield so ???

Tyvi · 10/03/12, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by Khiandor

I dont get the "The value of accuracy stats" bit. Even when deathstrike misses or is dodged/parried, you still get the full heal & bloodshield so ???

It's because we don't know if it's a bug that Death Strike heals even if it doesn't land or not. Blizzard has been awfully silent about the whole thing so for now I am going to assume it is a bug. (The last thing they said about Death Strike is that it should not heal if it doesn't land and the wording of the Death Strike tooltip was deliberately changed back from it's 4.3 version but some time has passed with Death Strike still healing at all times, so who knows?)
If you do not think it is a bug, by all means disregard that particular benefit of accuracy gearing and evaluate if the other advantages are enough for you to pick it over avoidance or not.

On the topic of bugs, has anyone noticed Lichborne behaving very weirdly? Around half the time, it will refuse letting you self heal past the first Death Coil and nothing you do (targeting yourself then hitting Death Coil, mouseover Death Coil, not using macros at all etc) will heal yourself.
Also, is anyone else experiencing a bug with Chains of Ice and Chilblains? I can't get mobs rooted at all with it anymore and some (maybe all, I haven't checked) heroic bosses even get the Chilblains debuff even though it doesn't snare them (before you would just get an "Immune" message).

Ebenton · 10/03/12, 10:11 AM

This is the first I have heard of the Lichborn bug, but I suppose you can add it to the list. Currently, Howling Blast is doing initial splash aoe damage, but only applying Frost Fever to the main target. Unholy Blight is only applying diseases to the main target if it applies at all.

Edit: link with a blue post concerning current bugged death knight abilities.
Death Knight diseases not applying correctly - Forums - World of Warcraft

Iroared · 10/04/12, 8:27 AM

Regarding expertise, why does the guide recommend 7.5% exp? Considering how exp currently works, it shouldn't change value at all around 7.5% point, it keeps increasing your chance of landing an attack by the exact same amount up to 15% as long as you're attacking from the front. I'm not saying gearing all the way up to 15% is ideal, but there doesn't seem to be any reason to go for 7.5% unless you want to increase your dps for bosses you're offtanking.

krekot · 10/04/12, 9:04 AM

With 7.5% hit and exp your Death Strike and Rune Strike will always hit. Hearth Strike need 15% exp for always hitting.