Frost DPS 5.0.4 - The Cold Hand of Death - Page 5

Rannoch · 10/22/12, 4:48 PM

Hey guys hoping for some insight if you wouldn't mind. I've been playing Unholy and have been doing quite well with it in our "Serious" 10m, but with the Simcraft showing what it does the concern is I might be leaving upwards of 8k dps on the table even though I'm doing almost number 1 dps on each fight as Unholy.

I'm trying to understand the concepts behind Frost, albeit on paper it doesn't look to complicated. But I'm seeing in the "Advanced Thread" this argument between waiting/always hitting something. I'm in the DPS camp coming from my Lock/Unholy that you should be always hitting something and getting to a Deadzone is almost what your aiming for unless you "need" dps for a certain phase. Unholy is very much about getting the runes on CD, not capping RP, and the only time you wait is on Unholy runes in SR phase so you can have a 100% uptime. Its very intuitive for that style.

When I switch to frost I hear use KM on OBL etc, but I'm wondering do you really "worry" about this or do you burn through your runes like Unholy/Reg DPS and burn your RP bar with FS, and react to Rime procs. This is using your resources but it would seem you of course might lose a KM to a FS, but your always dpsing...Would appreciate the insight. I find if you have to wait Frost seems alil clunky, I like the "controlled wait" of the SR phase but would find it nerve racking to do it all fight. Also would Frost use Death Coil if running to the boss or is it worth it to wait until in melee range? Much appreciated guys, these threads are always helpful for those of us trying to mimic the best!

Jhnwyn · 10/22/12, 5:44 PM

Hey has someone tested using the entchant dancing steel [[ Formula: Enchant Weapon - Dancing Steel - Item - World of Warcraft ]] instead off using rune of razorice [[ Rune of Razorice - Spell - World of Warcraft ]] ?

is it even worth trying?

mendenbarr · 10/22/12, 10:03 PM

@ SonanceFalc, take a look at this thread about the benefits of waiting.

@Rannoch, as far as the waiting argument goes, seeing as you've already seen the thread linked above, look at it like this. You generate resources every second, or every ability used. If you use every single resource generated by the end of the fight, and don't stop generating at any time, you can wait as long as you want and not lose damage. The trick is waiting long enough to make a difference, but not so long as to waste resources. Frost is a little more clunky then unholy at this time because of KM.
And the only time you ever want to use death coil as frost, would be if you cannot hit the boss for 18+ seconds, and you have the runic for it. If you're spamming HB during an air phase, that counts as hitting the boss, but DC is worth using to not get capped, but not to unload.

@Jhnwyn
Interesting idea, I'll take a look at it.
It's easy to calculate exactly how much razor-ice is worth, single target. Frost 2 hand is about 40% frost damage, but you can use your own % here, as 2hand doesn't even use razor-ice. Obviously the numbers will be different for duel-wield.

(Dps dealt * % of dmg that is frost)/1.1 =frost dps without razorice
(Dps dealt * % of dmg that is frost) - frost dps without razorice = value of razorice 1
weapon dmg * .02 = value of razorice 2
value of razorice 1 + value of razorice 2 = value of razorice

Dancing steel = 1650 str * proc uptime
proc uptime is at 1 rppm, unless i'm mistaken, and lasts 12 seconds, so let's call it .2
dancing steel = 330 str
330 * value of str for your gear = dancing steel value

if dancing steel value > razorice value, try it out, otherwise stick with razorice.

CausalXXLinkXx · 10/23/12, 5:45 AM

Originally Posted by DisRuptive1

If you can afford to not have a healer go in, then you can afford to run with 2 healers instead of 3. Not having a healer go in is a waste of mana regen for the benefit of doing 50% more DPS inside. Using Death Strike instead of Howling Blast or Obliterate is a DPS loss and the other players that go in with you without a healer might end up spending so much time regenerating their health on their own that the total damage your group outputs isn't ultimately worth it.

As a melee dps, you want to take a healer with you since they'll heal you faster than you would on your own. You don't want to spend all your time in the spirit realm running from mob to mob. Just get in there, drop a Death and Decay at a far away mob, kill any mobs close to you, then get out and get back on the boss.

While you should have a healer go in always, RNG isn't always in your favor. On our attempts, we had multiple times where 1 healer came out, 1 healer had voodoo doll, and the backup hybrid also had voodoo doll. The way we worked around this was sending me, the DK, down to death pact / Death Strike VIA Dark Succor, and Life stone. So yes, while doing this downstairs is a dps loss, sometimes you have to do it, this is a good tip to share

Haakkon · 10/23/12, 2:44 PM

Here's a version of the priority I posted earlier for DW-BT that works in simulationcraft 505-3

← Click Here

#!./simc deathknight="Death_Knight_Frost_1h_T14H" origin="unknown" level=90 race=orc spec=frost role=attack position=back professions=enchanting=600/engineering=600 talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#dZ!1...0. actions.precombat=flask,type=winters_bite actions.precombat+=/food,type=black_pepper_ribs_and_shrimp actions.precombat+=/frost_presence actions.precombat+=/horn_of_winter actions.precombat+=/army_of_the_dead actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats actions.precombat+=/mogu_power_potion actions=blood_fury,if=time>=10 actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=target.time_to_die<=60&buff.pillar_of_frost.up actions+=/auto_attack actions+=/raise_dead actions+=/use_item,name=gauntlets_of_the_lost_catacomb,if=(frost>=1|death>=1) actions+=/pillar_of_frost actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3 actions+=/soul_reaper,if=target.health.pct<=35|((target.health.pct-3*(target.health.pct%target.time_to_die))<=35) actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3) actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&!((buff.killing_machine.react&runic_power<10)|(unholy=2|frost=2|death=2)) actions+=/frost_strike,if=buff.killing_machine.react actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>=88 actions+=/obliterate,if=buff.killing_machine.react&runic_power<10 actions+=/obliterate,if=(unholy=2) actions+=/howling_blast,if=(frost=2|death=2) actions+=/death_and_decay actions+=/obliterate actions+=/howling_blast actions+=/frost_strike actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled actions+=/horn_of_winter actions+=/empower_rune_weapon head=helmet_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86915,gems=reverberating_primal_80str_160hit_180str,reforge=hit_haste neck=shackle_of_eversparks,id=90508,reforge=hit_mastery shoulders=shoulderpads_of_misshapen_life,id=86986,gems=160str_60str,enchant=200str_100crit,reforge=crit_haste back=hiseks_chrysanthemum_cape,id=86945,enchant=180crit,reforge=hit_mastery chest=breastplate_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86913,gems=80str_160mastery_80str_160mastery_120crit,enchant=80all,reforge=crit_mastery wrists=bracers_of_defiled_earth,id=90506,enchant=180str,reforge=hit_haste hands=gauntlets_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86914,enchant=170str,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii,reforge=crit_mastery waist=waistplate_of_overwhelming_assault,id=86955,gems=80str_160mastery_80str_160hit_160str_120haste legs=greaves_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86916,gems=160str_60str,enchant=285str_165crit feet=impaling_treads,id=86979,gems=160str,enchant=175haste,reforge=hit_exp finger1=ring_of_the_bladed_tempest,id=86957,enchant=160str,reforge=haste_mastery finger2=dread_shadow_ring,id=87158,enchant=160str,reforge=hit_mastery trinket1=darkmist_vortex,id=87172 trinket2=relic_of_xuen,id=79327 main_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,id=87173,gems=500str,enchant=rune_of_razorice,reforge=hit_haste off_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,id=87173,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader,reforge=hit_haste # Gear Summary # gear_strength=18124 # gear_agility=80 # gear_stamina=20143 # gear_intellect=80 # gear_spirit=80 # gear_expertise_rating=2567 # gear_hit_rating=2800 # gear_crit_rating=2468 # gear_haste_rating=4338 # gear_mastery_rating=6133 # gear_armor=34302 # meta_gem=reverberating_primal # tier14_2pc_melee=1 # tier14_4pc_melee=1 # hands=gauntlets_of_the_lost_catacomb,heroic=1,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii # main_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,heroic=1,weapon=sword_2.60speed_6807min_12643max,enchant=rune_of_razorice # off_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,heroic=1,weapon=sword_2.60speed_6807min_12643max,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader

*guess it wasn't a 505-3 problem just the spoiler tag adding random line breaks, wrapped it in a code block so it should copy/paste fine now.

Rannoch · 10/23/12, 3:34 PM

Hey Men, I really appreciate the reply it was very helpful. I think I will basically being doing the same tempo/mindset as Unholy except I might not spam "as hard" if I'm not capping resources for procs optimization. The last question, if I may, is does Frost sim higher in better gear due to perhaps greater Str/Harder Crits? I say this because in loading the BiS Norm/Heroic Simcraft you do see the big 4-8k difference or so between Unholy/Frost, but in my mostly Blue/Norm purple gear I'm finding these results:

Helter Skelter Sim: Proklus/Korgath

Unholy: 58153 *Runic Corruption
Frost: 58527 *Runic Empowerment
Frost: 56398 *Runic Corruption

It would seem if you go Frost for min/max you should perhaps just acquire gear and sim until you see the numbers being worthwhile enough to switch for that reason?

mendenbarr · 10/23/12, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Rannoch

Hey Men, I really appreciate the reply it was very helpful. I think I will basically being doing the same tempo/mindset as Unholy except I might not spam "as hard" if I'm not capping resources for procs optimization. The last question, if I may, is does Frost sim higher in better gear due to perhaps greater Str/Harder Crits? I say this because in loading the BiS Norm/Heroic Simcraft you do see the big 4-8k difference or so between Unholy/Frost, but in my mostly Blue/Norm purple gear I'm finding these results:

Helter Skelter Sim: Proklus/Korgath

Unholy: 58153 *Runic Corruption
Frost: 58527 *Runic Empowerment
Frost: 56398 *Runic Corruption

It would seem if you go Frost for min/max you should perhaps just acquire gear and sim until you see the numbers being worthwhile enough to switch for that reason?

The sims definitely do say that frost is scaling a little better then unholy, but don't make every decision of the sim result. Very often, the best spec can be determined on a fight by fight basis, depending on the stop dps phases, burn phases, movement, air phases, ect ect. Personally, I like unholy on elegon for the disease damage on the orbs, but I digress.

On a tank and spank fight, even at moderate to low gear levels, frost is simming ahead of unholy. Even at very low levels, eg blues, if unholy has a lead it's very small. If there is a fight in particular you are progressing on, try out both specs, and see which one you do better as, however I start as frost on most fights, and try unholy second.

Lamperouqe · 10/23/12, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Haakkon

After playing DW Frost with Blood Tap (as per Magdalena's suggetion in Acherus) I did some playing around on simcraft. I made a priority that was more fitting to how DW plays with Blood Tap.

Starting from the BiS T14H profile on version 5.0.5-2 I was able to get it to sim at 117.6k which is higher than the BiS profile. When I looked at the differences of the results what it boiled down to was a larger portion of Obliterates vs Plague Strike, and less wasted runic power along with fewer wasted rune regen (though that could be because I left out the default of using ERW when the fight is near over).

I'm sure there's other improvements that can be made to this especially because I was swapping it over from the default profile instead of building it fresh. But this does lead towards some possible merit to the smoothness of using BT.

← Click Here

#!./simc

deathknight="Death_Knight_Frost_1h_T14H"
origin="unknown"
level=90
race=orc
spec=frost
role=attack
position=back
professions=enchanting=600/engineering=600
talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#dZ!1...0.

actions.precombat=flask,type=winters_bite
actions.precombat+=/food,type=black_pepper_ribs_and_shrimp
actions.precombat+=/frost_presence
actions.precombat+=/horn_of_winter
actions.precombat+=/army_of_the_dead
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/mogu_power_potion

actions=blood_fury,if=time>=10
actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=target.time_to_die<=60&buff.pillar_of_frost.up
actions+=/auto_attack
actions+=/raise_dead
actions+=/use_item,name=gauntlets_of_the_lost_catacomb,if=(frost>=1|death>=1)
actions+=/pillar_of_frost
actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3
actions+=/soul_reaper,if=target.health.pct<=35|((target.health.pct-3*(target.health.pct%target.time_to_die))<=35)
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_pl ague.remains<3)
actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&!((buff.killing_machine.react&runic_power <10)|(unholy=2|frost=2|death=2))

actions+=/frost_strike,if=buff.killing_machine.react
actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>=88
actions+=/obliterate,if=buff.killing_machine.react&runic_power<10
actions+=/obliterate,if=(unholy=2)
actions+=/howling_blast,if=(frost=2|death=2)
actions+=/death_and_decay
actions+=/obliterate
actions+=/howling_blast
actions+=/frost_strike
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled
actions+=/horn_of_winter
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon

head=helmet_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86915,gems=reverberating_primal_80str_160hit_180s tr,reforge=hit_haste
neck=shackle_of_eversparks,id=90508,reforge=hit_mastery
shoulders=shoulderpads_of_misshapen_life,id=86986,gems=160str_60str,enchant=200str_10 0crit,reforge=crit_haste
back=hiseks_chrysanthemum_cape,id=86945,enchant=180crit,reforge=hit_mastery
chest=breastplate_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86913,gems=80str_160mastery_80str_160master y_120crit,enchant=80all,reforge=crit_mastery
wrists=bracers_of_defiled_earth,id=90506,enchant=180str,reforge=hit_haste
hands=gauntlets_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86914,enchant=170str,addon=synapse_springs_ma rk_ii,reforge=crit_mastery
waist=waistplate_of_overwhelming_assault,id=86955,gems=80str_160mastery_80str_160hit_ 160str_120haste
legs=greaves_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86916,gems=160str_60str,enchant=285str_165crit
feet=impaling_treads,id=86979,gems=160str,enchant=175haste,reforge=hit_exp
finger1=ring_of_the_bladed_tempest,id=86957,enchant=160str,reforge=haste_mastery
finger2=dread_shadow_ring,id=87158,enchant=160str,reforge=hit_mastery
trinket1=darkmist_vortex,id=87172
trinket2=relic_of_xuen,id=79327
main_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,id=87173,gems=500str,enchant=rune_of_razorice,reforge =hit_haste
off_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,id=87173,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader,reforge=h it_haste

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=18124
# gear_agility=80
# gear_stamina=20143
# gear_intellect=80
# gear_spirit=80
# gear_expertise_rating=2567
# gear_hit_rating=2800
# gear_crit_rating=2468
# gear_haste_rating=4338
# gear_mastery_rating=6133
# gear_armor=34302
# meta_gem=reverberating_primal
# tier14_2pc_melee=1
# tier14_4pc_melee=1
# hands=gauntlets_of_the_lost_catacomb,heroic=1,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii
# main_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,heroic=1,weapon=sword_2.60speed_6807min_12643max,ench ant=rune_of_razorice
# off_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,heroic=1,weapon=sword_2.60speed_6807min_12643max,encha nt=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader

I am getting similiar results. It is simming 1389 dps higher in my current gear with 450 fight length, 20% variation and 50k iterations. The gap is larger in BiS gear because of 2pt14 affecting a higher portion of dps with this priority and weapon damage scaling with OB. This gap will also widen in practical play because this sim priority is missing the conditionals to HBx2 instead of OB with D and F runes when you can avoid capping resources, as HBx2 is higher damage per rune, but can lead to wasting resources. The difference in this priority is to use every U rune on OB when DnD is not available, which BT makes possible by generating D runes, and to switch to obliterating when risking capping resources by using an extra global with HBx2 on F and D runes. BT also wastes less resources because of the even procs vs the feast or famine of RE.

Lamperouqe · 10/25/12, 12:51 AM

I found a few mistakes in the simc priorities in Haakkon's and the default priority. The biggest mistake is what is devaluing BT so much on the sim; BT's placement. It's placed below plain frost strike, which means that when you could've used BT to generate a rune to HB with, since HB is higher in the priority, you're frost striking instead. This leads to less KM procs utilized, since its milking out your RP before even using your runes properly.

The line "actions+=/obliterate,if=(unholy=2|frost=2|death=2)" was also bugging me, so I rechecked the meaning of "|" to confirm it to be "OR". In the default priority the sim is obliterating with double F and D, even though a single HB is enough to put the rune back to a regenerating state with the same GCD cost. The default priority is also prioritising Rime over KM FS for some reason. These two were already fixed on Haakkon's priority though.

After I fixed those things in the priority lists I got these results with the BiS DW profile with 450 fight length, 0% variation, 50k iterations:

RE default priority 114409
RE fixed priority 114669

BT default priority 112996
BT fixed priority 118789

I'm becoming fairly sure that the general consensus about RE>BT as DW originated from a simcraft error, and that BT is actually superior.

Here is the fixed RE priority I used:

← Click Here

And here's the fixed BT priority:

← Click Here

Sorry for the double post, but I felt this needed a post of its own.

Edit: As a side note, this would push DW over 2H by around 2k~ dps on single target in BiS gear, making it the universal winner this tier. I simulated the 2H BiS profile with the same settings as above and the default 2H priority (which looked like it was made with a lot more care) and got 116589 dps.

Edit2: Added a very slight dps increase update to the BT priority, which stops the sim from using DnD over OB with 2 or more full rune sets, like after an ERW for example.

Edit3: The spoiler box adds a few spaces on the priorities, be sure to remove them from these lines when running the sim:

actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_pl ague.remains<3)
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&!((buff.killing_machine.react&runic_power <10)|(unholy=2|frost=2|death=2))

Edit4: Very slight change in the BT priority (3 dps up) and to add on BT's default placement on simc priority; it's sitting at 12 charges at times, capping them. Also the default priority, made for RE, doesn't quite work as well for BT which is not sitting any U runes because it doesn't matter if BT procs on U since it makes it D.

lilucky136 · 10/26/12, 2:04 AM

actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&!((buff.killing_machine.react&runic_power <10)|(unholy=2|frost=2|death=2))

When you put this in make sure there is no space between power and >10
also actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_pl ague.remains<3)
there was a space between plague. This will cause a simulation error.

In my current gear I put in this rotation and it was a 4k dps increase right off the bat.

Lamperouqe · 10/26/12, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by lilucky136

actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&!((buff.killing_machine.react&runic_power <10)|(unholy=2|frost=2|death=2))

When you put this in make sure there is no space between power and >10
also actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_pl ague.remains<3)
there was a space between plague. This will cause a simulation error.

In my current gear I put in this rotation and it was a 4k dps increase right off the bat.

There is some problem with the spoiler box adding those spaces, since they're not there when I edit my post. Be sure to remove those spaces when running the sim. Thanks for pointing it out!

Edit: It also seems that in BiS DW (swords) with BT troll wins vs orc by about ~400 dps (119206 vs 118809) with goblin lagging behind by 1k~ (117997). So change the race in the BiS profile and change "blood_fury" to "berserking" in the priority when simming.

Edit2: Forgot about undead, it placed 3rd instead of goblin with 118498 dps.

sonicdragolgo · 10/27/12, 8:57 AM

Hi all. First of all thanks to Lamperouqe for the updated priority list. I just rerolled back to DK 2 days ago and seeing DW outperform 2H was very interesting. I decided to take a closer look at the list, made a few adjustments and ended up with 119970 dps for orcs. This was achieved mostly by kicking out DND completely, switching a few priorities and cleaning up some triggers. As usual 50k iterations, patchwerk style, no variation.

← Click Here

If any of you finds further adjustments to improve the calculated single target DPS, please share your priority list.

edit: logical BT improvement
edit2: PL positioning improved, +300dps

xbit · 10/28/12, 7:14 PM

I took some of the proposed changes on here and added some of my own stuff to the DW action list and it's now in simc's SVN.

https://code.google.com/p/simulation...n14490&r=14490

Simulationcraft Results - 120991 DPS in a raid

You should probably base further optimizations off of this list. Note that DPS will be higher if you sim alone. I believe it was roughly 121.3k DPS, so make sure you test changes based off of a single char sim rather than the results of the raid sim.

sonicdragolgo · 10/29/12, 2:08 AM

After my first main raid with the DK in 2 years I could optimize the priorities some more. Simcraft settings were 50k/low/450/0%/patchwerk/raid boss/humanoid/1/elite and all buffs/debuffs active. Most important factors are still the removed DnD and HoW>FS at the bottom of the list.
latest SVN: 119386
see below: 121642

← Click Here

Thanks to my guild mate Xinou for pointing out the far more logical PL placement and trigger.

xbit · 10/29/12, 1:17 PM

Good catch on the DnD. It can be improved further by moving raise_dead above PoF because the ghoul no longer snapshots stats, so you can get an extra GCD of PoF-buffed abilities in that way. I'll try and get the list into SVN shortly.