Frost DPS 5.0.4 - The Cold Hand of Death - Page 9

Kruciel · 11/23/12, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Tyhma

DW

1 Lei'Shi's final Orders HM
2 Relic of Xuen
3 Darkmist Vortex HM

Pretty much got the exact same results. It's obvious you aren't going to line Pillar up with the proc every single time being a 45 sec ICD with 1-5 sec proc time on average. But even if you only line up a few the difference is even more game-breaking than the Patchwerk sims are showing. And even if Darkmist Vortex is close in terms of DPS, which it isn't, the 105 sec ICD mini bloodlust is nothing compared to the strength procs for cooldown stacking. If it procs at a bad time, you just lost out on 210 seconds of half of the trinket's dps. That's another thing simming patchwerk fights will miss out on.

• Jessamy · 11/23/12, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by kend7510

I'm observing this for 2H Frost and am hoping someone would explain:

http://i.imgur.com/Gedtw.jpg

Why is it that haste value spikes at 6400, diminishes after 6600, then spikes shortly again at 8000? Our global cooldown are all 1 second and I can't see how this would be affected. Been scratching my head for hours and still can't figure out how this sweet spot came to be....

I have no set bonus and do not have runic corruption.

Are you simming with 0% variance, or 20%? The sim performs a perfect rotation with perfect reaction to procs. (Albeit with a delay to allow for latency and response time.) This means that cooldowns and timers will line up perfectly at certain sweet spots like you're seeing, if you have the exact same combat time for every iteration. Because of boss enrage timers, some people prefer to use a 0% variance, as fight lengths don't vary by the maximum 20% allowed by the sim. But that 20% introduces a randomness that smooths out the interactions of specific values of haste with specific combat times. There are some things that you can game in the sim, but not in practice. (I'm guessing you're not seeing spikes like that with crit or mastery, as those secondary stats won't be affected by the same factors as haste.)

7alisman · 11/24/12, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by 7alisman

I have found that in the latest version of simcraft, the value of haste for DW with 2pc bonus seems to skyrocket in relative terms to mastery. According to the simulations, mastery doesn't outweigh haste until 4 mobs are present, which seems a little out of whack with what I am seeing in game.

Has anyone else noticed this? Is this simply due to how it is valuing the 2pc, or perhaps is mastery stacking not quite as valuable as last expansion? I noticed there seems to be points of convergence around 3400 haste and 4800 haste where their values are almost identical.

After some further investigation, the variance between haste values and mastery values doesn't appear to be linked to the 2pc, but rather the use of Plague Leech/Blood tap vs unholy blight/runic empowerment. Changing these spec choices seems to relatively drastically alter the values of haste and mastery.

I would link my results, but until asked I'll leave them out to prevent confusion (no sense bringing another profile into the mix, and it would probably be better discussing the differences based on the BiS profile as opposed to my personal profile). However, as far as my own personal gear setup is concerned, I'd like to hear opinions of why haste would be so much more valued with RE then with BT. My best guess is the interaction benefits, but the data is quite skewed because I am not seeing in game what sim craft is suggesting with haste having a higher value then mastery.

For example with identical gear/stats, only changing the spec:

RE/UB:

DPS: 90,329
Str: 3.25
Haste: 1.50
Mastery 1.29
RP In\out: 6.9
Waiting: 12.69%
APM: 52.8

BT/PL:
DPS: 93,458
Str: 3.4
Haste: 1.28
Mastery: 1.39
RP In/Out: 7.2
Waiting: 4.39
APM: 66.0

Only thing I can imagine is that the abilitiy BT provides from having the rune on demand, as opposed to RE's random chance, that creates the void and therefor devalues the haste. I'd appreciate anyone else's theories.

Xemnosyst · 11/24/12, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by 7alisman

I'd appreciate anyone else's theories.

Here's one: with Plague Leech instead of Unholy Blight you fill more of your GCDs. As you get more strings of solid GCD usage you will more often cap resources, reducing the value of haste.

Ellianne · 11/26/12, 6:23 PM

So I've been fooling around with updating the BIS gear profile and was able to improve upon it by approximately 1k dps using the following profile:

#!./simc 

deathknight="Death_Knight_Frost_1h_T14H"
origin="unknown"
level=90
race=orc
spec=frost
role=attack
position=back
professions=enchanting=600/engineering=600
talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#dZ!1...0.

actions.precombat=flask,type=winters_bite
actions.precombat+=/food,type=black_pepper_ribs_and_shrimp
actions.precombat+=/frost_presence
actions.precombat+=/horn_of_winter
actions.precombat+=/army_of_the_dead
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/mogu_power_potion

actions=auto_attack
actions+=/pillar_of_frost
actions+=/mogu_power_potion,if=target.time_to_die<=30|(target.time_to_die<=60&buff.pillar_of_frost.up)
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon,if=target.time_to_die<=60&(buff.mogu_power_potion.up|buff.golemblood_potion.up)
actions+=/use_item,name=gauntlets_of_the_lost_catacomb,if=buff.pillar_of_frost.up
actions+=/blood_fury
actions+=/raise_dead
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&buff.blood_charge.stack>10&(runic_power>76|(runic_power>=20&buff.killing_machine.react))
actions+=/frost_strike,if=buff.killing_machine.react|runic_power>88
actions+=/plague_leech,if=talent.plague_leech.enabled&(dot.blood_plague.remains<3|dot.frost_fever.remains<3|cooldown.outbreak.remains<1)
actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3
actions+=/unholy_blight,if=talent.unholy_blight.enabled&(dot.frost_fever.remains<3|dot.blood_plague.remains<3)
actions+=/soul_reaper,if=target.health.pct-3*(target.health.pct%target.time_to_die)<=35
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&(target.health.pct-3*(target.health.pct%target.time_to_die)<=35&cooldown.soul_reaper.remains=0)
actions+=/howling_blast,if=!dot.frost_fever.ticking
actions+=/plague_strike,if=!dot.blood_plague.ticking
actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>76
actions+=/obliterate,if=unholy>1
actions+=/howling_blast,if=death>1|frost>1
actions+=/horn_of_winter
actions+=/obliterate,if=unholy>0
actions+=/howling_blast
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_empowerment.enabled&(frost=0|blood=0)
actions+=/blood_tap,if=talent.blood_tap.enabled&(target.health.pct-3*(target.health.pct%target.time_to_die)>35|buff.blood_charge.stack>=8)
actions+=/frost_strike,if=talent.runic_corruption.enabled&buff.runic_corruption.down
actions+=/death_and_decay
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>=40
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon

head=helmet_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86915,gems=reverberating_primal_80str_160hit_180str,reforge=hit_haste
neck=shackle_of_eversparks,id=90508,reforge=hit_mastery
shoulders=shoulderpads_of_misshapen_life,id=86986,gems=160str_60str,enchant=200str_100crit,reforge=crit_exp
back=hiseks_chrysanthemum_cape,id=86945,enchant=180crit,reforge=hit_mastery
chest=breastplate_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86913,gems=80str_160mastery_80str_160mastery_120crit,enchant=80all,reforge=crit_mastery
wrists=bracers_of_defiled_earth,id=90506,enchant=180str,reforge=hit_haste
hands=gauntlets_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86914,enchant=170str,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii,reforge=crit_mastery
waist=waistplate_of_overwhelming_assault,id=86955,gems=80str_160mastery_80str_160hit_160str_120haste,reforge=haste_exp
legs=greaves_of_the_lost_catacomb,id=86916,gems=160str_60str,enchant=285str_165crit,reforge=exp_haste
feet=impaling_treads,id=86979,gems=80str_160mastery_60hit,enchant=175haste,reforge=hit_mastery
finger1=ring_of_the_bladed_tempest,id=86957,enchant=160str,reforge=exp_mastery
finger2=dread_shadow_ring,id=87158,enchant=160str,reforge=hit_mastery
trinket1=lei_shins_final_orders,id=87072,reforge=haste_mastery
trinket2=darkmist_vortex,id=87172
main_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,id=87173,gems=500str,enchant=rune_of_razorice,reforge=hit_haste
off_hand=scimitar_of_seven_stars,id=86987,gems=80str_160hit_60mastery,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader,reforge=hit_exp

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=17088
# gear_agility=80
# gear_stamina=20143
# gear_intellect=80
# gear_spirit=80
# gear_expertise_rating=2552
# gear_hit_rating=2996
# gear_crit_rating=2468
# gear_haste_rating=4912
# gear_mastery_rating=6956
# gear_armor=34302
# meta_gem=reverberating_primal
# tier14_2pc_melee=1
# tier14_4pc_melee=1
# hands=gauntlets_of_the_lost_catacomb,heroic=1,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii
# main_hand=kilrak_jaws_of_terror,heroic=1,weapon=sword_2.60speed_6807min_12643max,enchant=rune_of_razorice
# off_hand=scimitar_of_seven_stars,heroic=1,weapon=sword_2.60speed_6807min_12643max,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader

Basically what this means is HC Scimitar is our BiS offhand and our two BiS trinkets are HC Lei Shin's and HC Darkmist.

In terms of weapon rankings -
Kilrak HC + Scimitar HC > 2x Kilrak HC > Kilrak HC + Elegion HC > Scimitar HC + Kilrak N > Elegion HC + Kilrak N > Scimitar N + Kilrak N > 2x Kilrak N

NOTE - This will probably change with 5.1. We don't know what the updated Relic looks like or how any of the other upgraded items looks like. Additionally there is also the chance that we'll be able to socket a second Kilrak based upon a datamined quest reward.
Eye of the Black Prince - Items - WowDB (PTR)

Aoha · 11/27/12, 8:20 AM

I was positive that one could soak total annihilation on Elegon HC with Anti-Magic Zone so I was using it on 1 of the groups in both phases. Last night on the other hand I was soaking myself but it didn't seem to absorb anything from total annihilation. Am I missing something?

• MagdalenaDK · 11/27/12, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Aoha

I was positive that one could soak total annihilation on Elegon HC with Anti-Magic Zone so I was using it on 1 of the groups in both phases. Last night on the other hand I was soaking myself but it didn't seem to absorb anything from total annihilation. Am I missing something?

Did you cast AMZ just as the add performed its Arcing Energy attack? Did you ensure that AMZ was all the way outside of the energy vortex with no overlap on the inside?
The only reason AMZ wouldn't absorb the damage from Total Annihilation is if the cap had already been reached or the add somehow exploded outside of the field itself.
Also: Did you pop AMS when you popped the barrier? Remember that the two will not work together; AMS will be prioritised for damage absorption (though this should only affect you and not anyone else soaking with you).

Kablanka · 11/27/12, 1:28 PM

I'm sure I'll get hit with a warning but I'm just looking for some guides with Simcraft.

I ran 2 sims, one was with my current gear / gems and another sim with my current gear but swapped out for more pure haste and haste hit gems and made nessary reforge changes as well.

Iterations: 25000
World Lag: Low
Length 450
Vary 20%
Skill Average
All buffs and debuffs are covered.
Ran Plots as well

My results:
89.754 dps (Str/Haste and Haste Hit)
89.474 dps (haste and Haste Hit)

Not sure if I'm missing something here but to me more Haste should provide more DPS right? I did not use the stat weights that were provided by Elitist but I did use wowreforge and askmrrobot

Aoha · 11/28/12, 3:01 AM

Originally Posted by MagdalenaDK

Did you cast AMZ just as the add performed its Arcing Energy attack? Did you ensure that AMZ was all the way outside of the energy vortex with no overlap on the inside?
The only reason AMZ wouldn't absorb the damage from Total Annihilation is if the cap had already been reached or the add somehow exploded outside of the field itself.
Also: Did you pop AMS when you popped the barrier? Remember that the two will not work together; AMS will be prioritised for damage absorption (though this should only affect you and not anyone else soaking with you).

I am aware AMZ and AMS doesn't stack, I wanted to use AMZ to soak cause it was the one pre transition, so I could use AMS to get some runic power on the energy charges. AMZ didn't get absorbed by overlapping damage. Basicly everyone of my group actually had the buff from AMZ but me. It didn't affect me at all but it did effect others. I tried this twice with the same result. I am aware that you can soak with AMS + IBF. It's just something odd cause I am 100% sure I was stood underneath it, that it was fully on the outside and I wasn't using AMS. I was using IBF with AMZ but that didn't use to give me trouble. As far as I know I just didn't get the buff like everyone else.

add somehow exploded outside of the field itself.

This on the other hand made me thinking. Does it make a difference if you put AMZ on top of the add or with the add outside of the barrier? But that still wouldn't explain why everyone else was getting the buff but me, since I was stacked up with them.

• MagdalenaDK · 11/28/12, 5:30 AM

Originally Posted by Aoha

I am aware AMZ and AMS doesn't stack, I wanted to use AMZ to soak cause it was the one pre transition, so I could use AMS to get some runic power on the energy charges. AMZ didn't get absorbed by overlapping damage. Basicly everyone of my group actually had the buff from AMZ but me. It didn't affect me at all but it did effect others. I tried this twice with the same result. I am aware that you can soak with AMS + IBF. It's just something odd cause I am 100% sure I was stood underneath it, that it was fully on the outside and I wasn't using AMS. I was using IBF with AMZ but that didn't use to give me trouble. As far as I know I just didn't get the buff like everyone else.

This on the other hand made me thinking. Does it make a difference if you put AMZ on top of the add or with the add outside of the barrier? But that still wouldn't explain why everyone else was getting the buff but me, since I was stacked up with them.

Alright, that clears it up a bit more: So, the rest of the group received the buff and presumably also the 75% damage reduction provided by AMZ? I assume this also means they survived the explosion if enough of them soaked it?
The only reason I can think of here that you didn't get the buff is because the game didn't register you being in the field itself. It sounds like either a positioning or a lag issue.

This isn't directly related to your question, but personally I'd suggest against melee soaking explosions if you can help it. Our heroic strats have 2 soak groups (ranged/healers with good survivability CDs) with each assigned a DK popping AMZ on them before running back into the vortex before the explosion.
We have a backup third soak group that utilises barrier/other CDs, though it's rarely needed.

Aoha · 11/28/12, 6:29 AM

Was merely due circumstances where we had to go with a very melee heavy composition why I had to soak, and we killed it so isn't really the biggest issue. Was wondering if it was actually a known bug. Fraps show me as being in the barrier way before explosion goes off though. Anyway I appreciate the replies. I'll try and get a confirmation about this,

kend7510 · 11/28/12, 6:24 PM

Originally Posted by Jessamy

Are you simming with 0% variance, or 20%? The sim performs a perfect rotation with perfect reaction to procs. (Albeit with a delay to allow for latency and response time.) This means that cooldowns and timers will line up perfectly at certain sweet spots like you're seeing, if you have the exact same combat time for every iteration. Because of boss enrage timers, some people prefer to use a 0% variance, as fight lengths don't vary by the maximum 20% allowed by the sim. But that 20% introduces a randomness that smooths out the interactions of specific values of haste with specific combat times. There are some things that you can game in the sim, but not in practice. (I'm guessing you're not seeing spikes like that with crit or mastery, as those secondary stats won't be affected by the same factors as haste.)

I'm simming with 20% variance using the LightMovement fight style....

Strength and crit are linear for the most part, but haste value greatly diminishes after 6600 (to below that of crit) and only picks back up after ~7900. This boggles my mind.

Italiandk · 11/28/12, 9:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kablanka

I'm sure I'll get hit with a warning but I'm just looking for some guides with Simcraft.

I ran 2 sims, one was with my current gear / gems and another sim with my current gear but swapped out for more pure haste and haste hit gems and made nessary reforge changes as well.

Iterations: 25000
World Lag: Low
Length 450
Vary 20%
Skill Average
All buffs and debuffs are covered.
Ran Plots as well

My results:
89.754 dps (Str/Haste and Haste Hit)
89.474 dps (haste and Haste Hit)

Not sure if I'm missing something here but to me more Haste should provide more DPS right? I did not use the stat weights that were provided by Elitist but I did use wowreforge and askmrrobot

You have to use the stat weights you get from the simulation.

At the moment it seems that you still gain more dps gemming strength than gemming haste. Nothing strange since haste should overcome strength with heroic gear.

Italiandk · 12/03/12, 11:23 AM

I just ran some sims.

SimC 5.1.0-2
2h T14H default profile
50k iterations

Sim 1
trinket 1 -> Lei Shen HC
trinket 2 -> Relic of Xuen
-> 117.255 dps
Sim 2
trinket 1 -> Darkmist HC
trinket 2 -> Relic of Xuen
-> 117.467 dps
Sim 3
trinket 1 -> Darkmist HC
trinket 2 -> Lei Shen HC
-> 118.125 dps

SimC 5.1.0-2
2h T14H default profile BT over RE
50k iterations

Sim 4
trinket 1 -> Lei Shen HC
trinket 2 -> Relic of Xuen
-> 117.480 dps
Sim 5
trinket 1 -> Darkmist HC
trinket 2 -> Relic of Xuen
-> 117.759 dps
Sim 6
trinket 1 -> Darkmist HC
trinket 2 -> Lei Shen HC
-> 118.509 dps

Anyone else got same results (BT>RE and DMC no longer BiS)?

onlylucky13 · 12/09/12, 3:43 PM

Coäl:

I made a quick spreadsheet to rank trinkets (including VP upgrade levels) for Frost DKs. I used the 5.04 BiS weighting posted on EJ for convenience, but weighting really should be based on your current set of gear after running a sim (such as the one found at SimulationCraft).

It should also be noted that the passive and proc/use stats for the upgraded items were based on wowhead's database and may not exactly match the live version, but the difference is so trivial that it should not affect the final score by more than a few points.

From: http://iap.enjin.com/forum/m/9487580...st-dk-trinkets

2013-02-04: Scyzek of Doomhammer pointed out the missing reforge to Mastery on Lei Shin's Final Orders trinkets for the DW Frost rankings, so I fixed it. Also added the Dominance Offensive faction trinket to the list.

2H Frost:

← Click Here

DW Frost:

← Click Here