The problem I see with Blood of the North is that it buffs Blood Strike so much that it's pointless to use those death runes in anything but Blood Strikes.
I've been tracking my Oblit crit rate, and it's not nearly as high as I would have expected. I was down to critting maybe 35% of the time with 19% paperdoll crit whereas I was figuring to be up around 50%. It maye have been maybe talents not properly stacking or maybe just a bad run streak/not maxxed weapon skill/fighting mobs at +1 level.
Of note, the more ITs you throw, the more free rime HBs you proc.
Also relevant, switching back and forth between an Oblit and two BS loses you 1.5 rune-seconds every rotation. Oblit scales with AP*0.086, and icy touch scales with AP*0.256 (two icy touches scale with AP*.512). If Oblit is better than two icy touches, it won't stay that way for very long, even ignoring the armor reduction and extra 15 rune power. (In gcd-starved rotations, it works out alright, since the extra gcd waiting for oblit can be put to use. I expect Oblit + FS will always be better than IT+IT :-P)
Originally Posted by gaborn
The problem I see with Blood of the North is that it buffs Blood Strike so much that it's pointless to use those death runes in anything but Blood Strikes.
You're going to need to do that math again. IT is well above BS at the nax25 gear level, even ignoring armor and rune power gains.
(In gcd-starved rotations, it works out alright, since the extra gcd waiting for oblit can be put to use. I expect Oblit + FS will always be better than IT+IT :-P)
Exactly. Since the discussion was about tanking, you're going to be in Frost Presence. That means you're likely going to be using just about every GCD you get; thus, it's going to be Oblit+FS vs IT+IT, and Oblit+FS wins that battle by a pretty big margin. Or, to be an even bigger winner, Oblit+AMS the incoming 20k damage MegaBossDoomSpell
Oblit+AMS the incoming 20k damage MegaBossDoomSpell
Note bosses are not supposed to have such huge hitting spell abilities, since no DK is supposed to have an large advantage over another tank class.
But good points, you don't want to always use FS, sometimes AMS is necessary.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Exactly. Since the discussion was about tanking, you're going to be in Frost Presence. That means you're likely going to be using just about every GCD you get; thus, it's going to be Oblit+FS vs IT+IT, and Oblit+FS wins that battle by a pretty big margin. Or, to be an even bigger winner, Oblit+AMS the incoming 20k damage MegaBossDoomSpell
Well yeah, but when we're talking about tanking, 'rotation' is kind of the wrong word :-) Tanking threat is going to be pretty seriously priority-based. Removing parries from the table isn't going to happen, and we need to use gcds at arbitrary times for mitigation abilities, and to keep BB up.
I didn't realize he was asking if botn was worthwhile while tanking. It seems too obvious that it is. Since it's basically impossible to run a strict rotation, the additional flexibility of always having a few deathrunes around is enormous! You wouldn't generally spend them on IT unless you have no Blessing of Sanctuary (glyphed IT gives you the fuel to spam those runestrikes), but being able to use the blood runes on actually relevant abilities instead of mere threat is a godsend.
Thanks, I actually have Blood and Unholy fairly comfortably modeled, I still need frost. As a side note, you probably would have broken 2200 dps if you used PS before IT in your rotation, and UB before that every full cycle (the two lines above = 1 full cycle) (you'd obviously miss it in the first cycle because you probably wouldn't have 60 RP going into a boss fight.
Some things I could use some help on with the model, however:
1) How to model Empowered Rune Weapon... I haven't found much use for it, but I'm sure you guys have good ideas
2) The coefficients on our spells, and how exactly Impurity works (an example of how to calculate effective spell damage and the coefficients abilities like DC, IT, and diseases use).
3) A frost DPS rotation (and any info on disease uptime %)
4) I need some numbers on ghouls... specifically what is the base % of str/agi/stam/etc they get from their masters. I can figure out the core stats and stats via talents easily on my own.
I've made a lot of progress on the model so far, should be interesting to compare talents and stats when its finished. I'm also trying to formulate an interface to allow custom rotations, but that's still a little ways off.
After spending a most productive day at work doing rotations:-P I THINK ive come up with a fairly good frost rotation. Assuming the following rules.
1. Howing blast > Obliterate if killing machine is procced
2. IF free howling blast is up, use that instead of frost strike in filler
note: runes shown as available after ability is used.
IT BBOFUU 1
PS BBOFOU 2
OB BBOOOO 3
BS OBOOOO 4
BS OOFOOO 5
FS OOFOUO 6
OB OOOFOU 7
IT DOOOOU 1
PS DDOOOO 2
OB OOOOOO 3
FS OOFOUO 4
OB OOOFOO 5
FS OOOFOU 6
FS BBOFOU 7
I havnt been able to come up with the perfect spec for frost dps yet because it really depends on if enough RP is being generated every 14 GCDs or 10 rune abilities to fund 4 frost strikes.
Hi, I'm rolling a Female Troll DK (if attack speed racial sticks around) named Doomtrain to be an unholy tank with. I am switching from a druid OT to an unholy DK. I'm excited to multi-target tank mobs with out just hitting tab + 1 and 2 spamming while hitting 3 every 7 seconds... Here is my proposed build! Let me know what you think. I currently have the ghoul mastery because i find pet classes fun! Also i have virulence for pvp reasons but am not sure how this spec would do in that case as well. My main concern is lack of having reaping. How much does this skill benefit tanking rotations?
As far as a tanking rotation i figure i'd switch it up a little different but basically still the same.
Always pulling with Icy Touch, then setting up a DnD between myself and the path of the mobs so they must walk over it to get to me(AMZ or silence the casters to pull them across the DnD)
then PS>Pestilence>Blood Boil>Blood Boil
From here just Scourge striking and blood boiling as often as possible with a few IT's inbetween to spend frost runes. Of course working unholy blight in there somewhere.
I plan to dump runic power according to the situation, sometimes for fun on gargoyle, other times for IBF whatever i feel like at the time. Unholy Blight up when need be as well.
The goal is to always have blood boil going not only for aoe threat but to have blade barrier up as often as possible. I dont have any beta experience to test this rotation out. Is there anyone that could offer any advice as to my build or tank rotation?
Has much thought been given to what will be needed for a DPS/OT DK? Should you just focus on the DPS talents and rely on your gear for mitigation, or if you are planning to off tank should you be expected to pick up the mitigation talents as well?
I'm not really worried about generating threat at all. Sitting in Frost Presence with the DPS that a DK does should be more than enough to hold aggro. But I'm wondering if a straight DPS build with a set of tanking gear will be sufficient enough to get the job done.
Hi, I'm rolling a Female Troll DK (if attack speed racial sticks around)
Seems you didn't get the memo. DKs don't get a lot from haste, you're way better off making an orc. Troll is probably one of the worst races (speaking purely in terms of racials and stats) for a DK. If you really want to tank, Blood Elf is a good option for the added passive spell resist, or Tauren for the (heavily nerfed) hp bonus.
Originally Posted by joypunk
Has much thought been given to what will be needed for a DPS/OT DK?
Depending on how they implement the dual specs thing (which will be announced at blizzcon) there might be no need for a spec like this.
Originally Posted by Tinweasele
After spending a most productive day at work doing rotations:-P I THINK ive come up with a fairly good frost rotation. Assuming the following rules.
1. Howing blast > Obliterate if killing machine is procced
2. IF free howling blast is up, use that instead of frost strike in filler
note: runes shown as available after ability is used.
IT BBOFUU 1
PS BBOFOU 2
OB BBOOOO 3
BS OBOOOO 4
BS OOFOOO 5
FS OOFOUO 6
OB OOOFOU 7
IT DOOOOU 1
PS DDOOOO 2
OB OOOOOO 3
FS OOFOUO 4
OB OOOFOO 5
FS OOOFOU 6
FS BBOFOU 7
I havnt been able to come up with the perfect spec for frost dps yet because it really depends on if enough RP is being generated every 14 GCDs or 10 rune abilities to fund 4 frost strikes.
Has much thought been given to what will be needed for a DPS/OT DK? Should you just focus on the DPS talents and rely on your gear for mitigation, or if you are planning to off tank should you be expected to pick up the mitigation talents as well?
I'm not really worried about generating threat at all. Sitting in Frost Presence with the DPS that a DK does should be more than enough to hold aggro. But I'm wondering if a straight DPS build with a set of tanking gear will be sufficient enough to get the job done.
I've been working towards a primary offtank build myself and feel pretty good with this build. It gets you all of the Tier 1 avoidance talents, nails the majority of the additional tanking toys in Frost, picks up Imp Icy Talons, and grabs some nice talents that will help with personal D/TPS (3/5 Bladed Armor, 3/3 Subversion, 2/2 Merciless Combat). While it's missing Black Ice, Acclimation, and Chill of the Grave, I think the compromises are relatively minor, at least at first glance and the only swap I've been considering is 3/5 Bladed Armor -> 3/5 Black Ice.
Last edited by Feorthas : 10/08/08 at 9:06 PM.
Reason: bolded link to talent spec
Hum, that's a good point. On the high end, the idea is your tanks are going to be better dps than before, but not suppose to be as good as a pure DPS spec. Any tank spec is going to take 18 points for Blade Barrier, Toughness, Anticipation, and Imp Icy touch.
I think its better to build for tanking and let your gear cover for your DPS. Given then closing of the dps gap between tanking and pure DPS, if you are being thrown into near main tank situations, its better to be prepared for that at the base and let the loot make up your discrepancy. Namely in the early game, where you most likely only have 1 good set, and if that's tanking, stick with it. Once the gear picks up, its more viable to spec more for DPS for OT roles.
Technically, yes. However there is currently a bug where if you get ressurected as a ghoul, you can use any ability that wasn't on your main bar. So you *could* also use it after you die and get ressed as a ghoul on yourself, provided you had the RP.
I'm pretty sure this bug has been fixed - last build, when Shadow of Death actually worked, I tried using some rune/rp abilities that weren't on my main bar and got "You are shapeshifted" as an error message.
On occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. -- James Nicoll
In a spec that has Tundra Stalker, Rime and Blood of the North, the following is true when most if not all raid buffs/debuffs are present and you are using an epic 2H weapon:
Remember that Howling Blast is a spell and is affected by partial resists and has to overcome 17% chance to miss while Obliterate has to overcome 14.75% Parry (while tanking, otherwise 6.50% dodge) and 9% Hit. You'll have 4-5% chance to hit in your tanking gear and a whole lot of expertise - nearly 20 once you gear starts getting better. So not only will Obliterate hit a lot harder than Howling Blast, it'll also land more often, crit more often and it won't be affected by partial resists. If you're using the Obliterate glyph, Howling Blast will only be used on Freezing Fog procs when your RP isn't maxed and for AoE purposes.
And for AoE threat as Blood: D&D > IT > PS > Pest > Blood Tap > BB as Blood gives you a lot less AoE threat than an Unholy spec (especially with Ebon Plaguebringer and all the % modifiers) and because of UB. And they both fall behind Frost with its 6.5k Howling Blast crits.
@Caggy's tank spec (this): I strong recommend against getting Icy Talons/Imp Icy Talons in a tanking build. Let someone else do it - you have more important talents to pick up to allow you to do your job properly, Icy Reach and Chill of the Grave being the most important 2 you've skipped.
@Tinweasele: You want Unbreakable Armor as a DPS talent with the Strength bonus - especially if you're wearing Plate. And you also most definitely don't want Vicious Strike since it'll be a minimal part of your DPS rotation, but you want Chill of the Grave and Runic Power Mastery - so your points in Toughness/Vicious Strikes would be moved around for those three talents. Remember that Unbreakable Armor will have about 30% uptime on a 10% total Strength bonus which is pretty damn good - and the extra survivability never hurts either.
Theorycrafting procedures per role:
DPS = Theory -> Spreadsheet -> Practice
Healing = Theory -> Practice -> Logs
Tanking = Theory -> Theory -> Theory
but you want Chill of the Grave and Runic Power Mastery
Runic Power Mastery? Does the extra 30 RP allow you to do something for a dps rotation? I was under the impression that your RP meter wouldn't ever be full, which would make the talent effectively useless. Or are there times when you have to wait and time abilities back to back (like a Shred, Mangle, Rip for Feral druids...)?
Can someone explain how Blood Boil works? From the description it sounds like it consumes diseases and does AoE damage, but people refer to BB as "keeping it up"... could someone elucidate the mechanics to a non-Beta-er? Sounds like maybe you can put a disease up on one target, pestilence, spread that disease, then consume just the diseases on one target to do AoE dmg to them all?
Thanks for the Frost dps rotation info.
@ Caggy - why spec into Icy Reach for your dps build? Seems like points could be spent better elsewhere, or did you just have to spend them to get further down the tree?
Heh, that's right. I'm getting my rods and cones all crossed! Then does BB actually consume diseases on the target, all targets, or none? Someone mentioned using BB back to get back got me really confused.
Blood Boil used to consume diseases and perfrom a Challenging Shout taunt function (a while ago), but now my understanding is that, despite the old wording still being on the tooltip, it does not consume diseases and simply does AoE damage to diseased targets within its radius.
Blood of the North => I don't understand WHY you need to get 5/5 BotN. 1/5 is largely sufficient IMO, 2/5 if you want a better efficiency on packs eventually... 3/5 maximum (I don't see why you would need 3/5...), but 4/5 or 5/5, I don't understand at all. You have a lot of wayyyy better talents to fill in frost. With 2/5 you're already assured to have one if not two DR after ~15 sec. of fight. After 25, max 35 sec, you're quasi assured (~70% at 25- 80% at 35) to have the two. I wouldn't waste 3 talent points for that. This talent is part of the talents where the first point is WAY WAY more worth its cost than the following ; actually it's clearly degressive. If we could mesure worthing of talent points, I guess the first point would be 200, the second 50, the third 10, the fourth 5, and the last 2. Beware of not being influenced by the good old "x/x" schema... Fill totally a talent is not always interesting. (actually, I can't imagine a reason for a raid tank to take more than 2/5 in BotN. The (little) aggro you would gain on the 25 first seconds would totally be outpowered by any other talent in frost.)
Tundra Stalker => Here I don't understand, too. This talent is really good, but seeing what sacrifice it costs to take it (i.e. Spell Deflection, which is an unavoidable talent for magic tanking, allowing you to increase your magical defenses way after the resistance limit - and that's what's often expected from a DK), I think you should limit it to 1/5. I'm 18/48/5 : put the points where you want, but I think you can't go for something very different if you want a frost magic tanking efficiency.
Blood of the North => I don't understand WHY you need to get 5/5 BotN. 1/5 is largely sufficient IMO, 2/5 if you want a better efficiency on packs eventually... 3/5 maximum (I don't see why you would need 3/5...), but 4/5 or 5/5, I don't understand at all. You have a lot of wayyyy better talents to fill in frost. With 2/5 you're already assured to have one if not two DR after ~15 sec. of fight. After 25, max 35 sec, you're quasi assured (~70% at 25- 80% at 35) to have the two. I wouldn't waste 3 talent points for that. This talent is part of the talents where the first point is WAY WAY more worth its cost than the following ; actually it's clearly degressive. If we could mesure worthing of talent points, I guess the first point would be 200, the second 50, the third 10, the fourth 5, and the last 2. Beware of not being influenced by the good old "x/x" schema... Fill totally a talent is not always interesting. (actually, I can't imagine a reason for a raid tank to take more than 2/5 in BotN. The (little) aggro you would gain on the 25 first seconds would totally be outpowered by any other talent in frost.)
Tundra Stalker => Here I don't understand, too. This talent is really good, but seeing what sacrifice it costs to take it (i.e. Spell Deflection, which is an unavoidable talent for magic tanking, allowing you to increase your magical defenses way after the resistance limit - and that's what's often expected from a DK), I think you should limit it to 1/5. I'm 18/48/5 : put the points where you want, but I think you can't go for something very different if you want a frost magic tanking efficiency.
... You know they don't come back as deathrunes again after you spend them, right?
10/08/08, 5:48 PM
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