I want use unholly presence for bring the 15% haste buff to my raid, on static encounter i'll think about something else, but if i take sunwell as exemple, except brutalus you get lot of benefits from this buff at all encounter.
In addition, at start game you not generate lot of RP from white strike and more of you're RP come from strike.
You say unholly presence isn't good because it left too many waste spot, i think that's exactly why unholly presence can be nice, it leave more free spot for RP burn.
I am agree with you, 2 hands in BP is actually far better but i think the scaling isn't as good as DW in UP and that's what i try to show.
Both specc will have a very different game play, 2 hands will always bump strike while DW will focus and bump white damage and BcB procc.
I wonder, does ghoul take a % of you're haste/hit in addition of strengh/stamina ?
15 RP for 2 Rune's strike, i ignore it, that's good to know.
As for BS vs UBA vs VB, the generally accepted view is that BS > UBA > VB. They each have their high points, but for general purpose use, BS is the best. Unfortunately it's deep in a tree without much else of general purpose tanking use.
Really? Ebon Plaguebringer + Unholy Blight = Howling Blast(I'm assuming here, I actually don't know the scaling values on UB, anyone got a link to that?).
Acclimation(if you take it) + Frost Aura = Magic Suppression + AMZ
So do Guile of Gorefiend and Frigid Dreadplate make up the difference between UA and BS?
I want use unholly presence for bring the 15% haste buff to my raid, on static encounter i'll think about something else, but if i take sunwell as exemple, except brutalus you get lot of benefits from this buff at all encounter.
In addition, at start game you not generate lot of RP from white strike and more of you're RP come from strike.
You say unholly presence isn't good because it left too many waste spot, i think that's exactly why unholly presence can be nice, it leave more free spot for RP burn.
I am agree with you, 2 hands in BP is actually far better but i think the scaling isn't as good as DW in UP and that's what i try to show.
Both specc will have a very different game play, 2 hands will always bump strike while DW will focus and bump white damage and BcB procc.
I wonder, does ghoul take a % of you're haste/hit in addition of strengh/stamina ?
15 RP for 2 Rune's strike, i ignore it, that's good to know.
The aura's don't require you to be in the presence to operate. If you have that talent, they'll get the speed buff when you're in blood presence too. You don't generate *any* rp from 'white strikes'. All of it comes from rune abilities. When he calls them 'waste spots', it's because there is not enough rp to 'burn' in them. Runestrike does not work when you're dpsing, only when you're tanking (it triggers on you avoiding an attack).
The scaling is very similar between DW and 2handers. The scaling is not affected by which presence you're in.
Please go back and read some of the thread, or at least post questions instead of assertions until you understand the mechanics better.
Originally Posted by deathwing
So do Guile of Gorefiend and Frigid Dreadplate make up the difference between UA and BS?
Well, frigid dreadplate is pretty nice. That's three percent of undiminished avoidance.
I calculated that in frost presence you get about a 206% increase to armor with UA (1.65(1.25(1))). So my question is:
at what point does does 41% (206%- 165%) armor over take or fall behind 40% reduction?
Same for dps, at what point does 10%Strength, and if you have bladed armor 41% increased armor over take or fall behind 2% damage increase?
I want use unholly presence for bring the 15% haste buff to my raid, on static encounter i'll think about something else, but if i take sunwell as exemple, except brutalus you get lot of benefits from this buff at all encounter.
In addition, at start game you not generate lot of RP from white strike and more of you're RP come from strike.
You say unholly presence isn't good because it left too many waste spot, i think that's exactly why unholly presence can be nice, it leave more free spot for RP burn.
I wonder, does ghoul take a % of you're haste/hit in addition of strengh/stamina ?
You don't need to be in Unholy Presence to provide Unholy Aura to the raid, and the 15% attack speed increase from Unholy Presence is self-only.
As mentioned, you don't get any RP from white attacks. The only ways to generate RP are using runic attacks (Plague Strike, Scourge Strike, Death and Decay, Icy Touch, etc), talents (Butchery, Scent of Blood), or using Empowered Rune Weapon. ALL of your RP will come from strikes or those two talents.
UP isn't good for Unholy because it leaves too much wasted time. For Blood, it's the best presence, because Blood has Sudden Doom to generate extra free Death Coils and thus can use a lot more global cooldowns than the other two trees. It doesn't matter how many free spots you have to burn RP if you can't burn any more RP than you could in Blood Presence - which is the case for an Unholy build.
There are more than a few assumptions made with the spreadsheet. My personal focus is on frost because i just love the feel of the spec and its obvious he made some assumptions with dealing with specs, ability rotations and ability priorities. Not to mention just downright wrong calculations on a few abilities.
1. Howling blast max crit listed as 2.7k in a raid, i have witnessed crits over 7k in pvp gear.
2. assumes a standard rotation of certain length(probably requiring extended disease durations.
3. assumes no conditional abilities or frost procs, freezing fog, killing machine combined with HB replace a few frost abilities in a normal rotation.
4. Generally the number of abilities and spec are already defined for his trees which really makes it not a true theory crafting sheet, just a way of comparing 3 specs+rotations.
Sorry for not responding sooner I've been away recently.
Although the current sheet provides for rotations of certain length (and no they don't require extended disease, it takes that into account), it was to know whether or not a disease would be up.
A more complicated implementation is already in the works, and since you brought it up, I will devote my attention to it.
I didn't model most of the frost abilities right away because I didn't have experience with them, but like I said its a work in progress.
Finally, the abilities and spec's are NOT predefined (only the rotation length), so you should be able to compare anything. This is specifically why I created the custom sheet to compare any arbitrary spec with the three "standard" dps specs, so that small changes would become more apparent. I have added in numbers for them, but they all use identical code, so they are interchangeable (and if they're not that's a bug).
I am very interested in the setup for your 7k HB crit, so I can find the flaw in my formula's though and I know I don't have the apc for HB. I do know the Blood Boil damage is still off as well.
I imagine a number of other abilities are, and I constantly test to find them, but with any arbitrary spec, where the formula might have 1 number off, its hard for me to catch everything.
Finally, there are a number of other good spreadsheets (not to mention deathgraf, which seems broken right now).
I prefer mine, but you are welcome to pick and choose as you will.
Edit: Also DW is on the list of things to calculate, but it is fairly low on the list. I will get to it EVENTUALLY.
Last edited by tzenes : 10/14/08 at 10:06 PM.
Reason: dw
You don't need to be in Unholy Presence to provide Unholy Aura to the raid, and the 15% attack speed increase from Unholy Presence is self-only.
As mentioned, you don't get any RP from white attacks. The only ways to generate RP are using runic attacks (Plague Strike, Scourge Strike, Death and Decay, Icy Touch, etc), talents (Butchery, Scent of Blood), or using Empowered Rune Weapon. ALL of your RP will come from strikes or those two talents.
UP isn't good for Unholy because it leaves too much wasted time. For Blood, it's the best presence, because Blood has Sudden Doom to generate extra free Death Coils and thus can use a lot more global cooldowns than the other two trees. It doesn't matter how many free spots you have to burn RP if you can't burn any more RP than you could in Blood Presence - which is the case for an Unholy build.
The "Like its red cousin, rage," put me in mistake, with this change ( for me ) i have to think different everything.
Using BP instead of UP will maybe make DW not as good as before.
But it will make easier for me to find if the "second" waste from BS-BS is such a pain or not.
The "Like its red cousin, rage," put me in mistake, with this change ( for me ) i have to think different everything.
Yeah, the comparisons of Runic Power to Rage and the runes to Energy really are misleading. The DK's power mechanic doesn't play even remotely like any other class. Blizz did a good job with the class, IMO, from a design standpoint. You really have to approach the class almost as if you were a new player - bringing in preconceived "I know how XYZ works" notions will likely confuse you or lead you to bad conclusions.
I read that it will be almost impossible to reach the crit-immune defense rating cap without the first wotlk raid set. So do u think it would be a good idea to get some pvp items for resilience to do that? For example the druid tanks in my guild done that in TBC.
One field I think our theorycrafting is somewhat lacking (although we are a new class, for the most part the people in this thread have done an amazing job). We haven't done a lot of research into what a lack of hit/expertise does to our DPS. The reason I bring this up is because a lot of abilities are reliant on one another... plus having to retry an ability throws off our rune cooldowns in the cycle. I'm curious to see what kind of effect being hit/expertise capped would have on our average dps if it was guaranteed that our yellow attacks would always land.
Originally Posted by Bryan08
Some questions about tanking as a Death Knight.
I read that it will be almost impossible to reach the crit-immune defense rating cap without the first wotlk raid set. So do u think it would be a good idea to get some pvp items for resilience to do that? For example the druid tanks in my guild done that in TBC.
I'm not too well versed in tanking for a DK, but this seems like a generally bad idea. You're going to want gear with defense, parry, and doge on it, which pvp doens't have any of. I suppose if you're sporting some low stats green gear it might be appropriate, but druids have wierd tank mechanics and I think you should view our gear more along the lines of a warrior (except ignoring block) than a druid. A warrior would never tank with pvp gear.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
One field I think our theorycrafting is somewhat lacking (although we are a new class, for the most part the people in this thread have done an amazing job). We haven't done a lot of research into what a lack of hit/expertise does to our DPS. The reason I bring this up is because a lot of abilities are reliant on one another... plus having to retry an ability throws off our rune cooldowns in the cycle. I'm curious to see what kind of effect being hit/expertise capped would have on our average dps if it was guaranteed that our yellow attacks would always land.
I'm not too well versed in tanking for a DK, but this seems like a generally bad idea. You're going to want gear with defense, parry, and doge on it, which pvp doens't have any of. I suppose if you're sporting some low stats green gear it might be appropriate, but druids have wierd tank mechanics and I think you should view our gear more along the lines of a warrior (except ignoring block) than a druid. A warrior would never tank with pvp gear.
Most of my spreadsheets assume hit/expertise capped. It's very easy to cap in t7 - I put on random epics from naxx and ended up capped in both specs I tried (unholy might need a couple gems, unless it's got racial expertise).
DK tanking has more in common with druids than with the others. They're both avoidance/armor tanks, and their preferred stat allocations are very skewed. If the pvp gear at 80 also has extra armor on it, I could see it being better for tanking than most blues.
DK tanking has more in common with druids than with the others. They're both avoidance/armor tanks, and their preferred stat allocations are very skewed. If the pvp gear at 80 also has extra armor on it, I could see it being better for tanking than most blues.
Except druid pvp gear has their primary avoidance stat as well... agility. DK pvp gear doesn't have any avoidance stats on it AT ALL. That was my comparison of druids versus other tanks, sorry if I was unclear.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
We're very much an avoidance tank similar to druids. Druids have a talent that reduces their chance to be crit, which makes a little Resilience go a long way for them to be uncrittable. In TBC, you often had to make a choice before raid tier sets about whether you wanted to focus on defense, stamina, or avoidance. You couldn't do all 3 or even 2 well before Kara without searching high and low for a wide variety of crafted, quest, and heroic gear. Just a gear choice you have to make and a natural progression.
[edit]
Looking at the Glyphs available to DKs, I'm a little underwhelmed by the dps ones. It looks like there are good options in the tanking category, however. Blood glyphs were also unimpressive as well. I know glyphs aren't supposed to be class-defining, but it'd be nice to get some reasonable raid benefit from them. Seems like Unholy ones are better overall and more dps-oriented.
Along those lines, how effective is the Obliterate glyph? How much does the Plague Strike glyph benefit Unholy specs over Frost and Blood specs?
Along those lines, how effective is the Obliterate glyph? How much does the Plague Strike glyph benefit Unholy specs over Frost and Blood specs?
At least from an Unholy dps perspective I know the PS glyph is not that impressive mainly due to the fact that with the SS glyph you will being using PS less.
At least from an Unholy dps perspective I know the PS glyph is not that impressive mainly due to the fact that with the SS glyph you will being using PS less.
The DK Glyph are pretty useless IMO... Nothing very outstanding gere Glyph of Unbreakable Armor makes you lose a lot of strengh, and probably a lot parry too, just to gain 5% parry... I don't think it will be that much interesting. Icebound Fortitude Glyph is a good save of runic power, but runic power is not exactly what's lacking the more...
The D&D one is good. That's actually the only one.
Except that, there's only DPS or PvP-oriented Glyphs... *Sigh*
The DK Glyph are pretty useless IMO... Nothing very outstanding gere Glyph of Unbreakable Armor makes you lose a lot of strengh, and probably a lot parry too, just to gain 5% parry... I don't think it will be that much interesting. Icebound Fortitude Glyph is a good save of runic power, but runic power is not exactly what's lacking the more...
The D&D one is good. That's actually the only one.
Except that, there's only DPS or PvP-oriented Glyphs... *Sigh*
Glyph of boneshield is amazing, and Unbreakable armor's effect is decent, if not impressive - vampric blood is the only of the three abiliities whos glyph seems that lackluster. Glyph of dark command is practically mandatory for tanking. A lot of them are excellent for 5man tanking, and glyph of runestrike is good for raid-tanking (unless you DW). D&D glyph is good for trash or 5mans.. Stop whining so much, our glyphs are fine.
No, the UA glyph is awesome. Because of diminishing returns, the amount of actual parry rating lost is negligible. The glyphs for BS, Dark Command, Obliterate, Death Strike, Pestilence, and Icy Touch quite good too. I agree, dps wise, they are lacking beyond Obliterate.
The obliterate glyph works out as about a 10-20% dps increase for both blood / unholy at reasonable AP levels. Only at very low AP (2000ish) does it work out better for unholy to stick with the unglyphed.
Not that unholy uses OB much but it was worth checking
The obliterate glyph works out as about a 10-20% dps increase for both blood / unholy at reasonable AP levels. Only at very low AP (2000ish) does it work out better for unholy to stick with the unglyphed.
Not that unholy uses OB much but it was worth checking
If Unholy is using OB, there is something going wrong .
I got about a 10% increase in OB using Frost spec with the premade PvP gear.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Just curious here....seeing as there are over 100 pages on here, what is probably shaping up to be the best leveling build & rotation to get to 80, and then at 80, what would be the best raid tanking build & rotation?
Just curious here....seeing as there are over 100 pages on here, what is probably shaping up to be the best leveling build & rotation to get to 80, and then at 80, what would be the best raid tanking build & rotation?
Most people agree the best leveling build will be unholy simply due to 20% mount speed and/or 15% running speed talents. Also unholy makes AE grinding pretty simple from my experience. I will be running with something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03100203133151
Some people don't like to take Wandering Plague because its not as useful for single target dps, thats more of my personal preference.
Most people agree the best leveling build will be unholy simply due to 20% mount speed and/or 15% running speed talents. Also unholy makes AE grinding pretty simple from my experience. I will be running with something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03100203133151
Some people don't like to take Wandering Plague because its not as useful for single target dps, thats more of my personal preference.
Unholy rocks for levelling, but it's mostly because of the permaghoul. Two points into blood are essential, but unholy seems the way to go after that.
Most people agree the best leveling build will be unholy simply due to 20% mount speed and/or 15% running speed talents. Also unholy makes AE grinding pretty simple from my experience. I will be running with something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03100203133151
Some people don't like to take Wandering Plague because its not as useful for single target dps, thats more of my personal preference.
Can you link that build from another site? for some reason it won't pull up for me.
And what rotation would you be using with that build?
Can you link that build from another site? for some reason it won't pull up for me.
And what rotation would you be using with that build?
Well, there's no real rotation for levelling/grinding. You'll usually be in UP, and you want things to die around when you've used 6 runes and one rp ability, so IT, DC, PS, BS, BS, SS, DC is roughly the order you use them in while grinding.
10/14/08, 7:08 PM
Glyph of Unbreakable Armor makes you lose a lot of strengh, and probably a lot parry too, just to gain 5% parry... I don't think it will be that much interesting. Icebound Fortitude Glyph is a good save of runic power, but runic power is not exactly what's lacking the more... 
.
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