Unholy Blight damage increased (37 DPS to 48 DPS for Rank 4, 31 to 40 for Rank 3, 23 to 30 for Rank 2). Targets aren't considered diseased anymore.

Looks like Unholy Blight functions more like consecration now. But I'm not terribly surprised by this change. Since scourge strike was getting an extra benefit from runic power expenditure where the other classes had to use runes to get those bonuses. It might seem bad for wandering plague but I figured that, with epidemic, as long as you had a 16% chance to crit you're statistically assured for it to proc at least once for one disease. So with three diseases on multiple targets it will be fine.

Frigid Dreadplate now Reduces the chance melee attacks will hit you by 1/2/3%.

While it is a nerf when facing fast attack monsters, it's a buff against slower ones(dividing line right about 3 seconds) so it's mostly up to you.

The change is a bit disappointing, because UB loses some of its additional utility, but it was far and away the best 51-point DK talent, so they may not have wanted that. It's also yet another nerf to Scourge Strike, which isn't that surprising. One bonus disease as Unholy is acceptable-- 2 was really a lot, to be honest.

Good to see you're finding the gap is closing. ~2% is close enough that it doesn't really matter which you choose in the practical sense-- you get a larger variance with the ins and outs of particular encounters than you do from your choice of spec.

Speaking of specs, I still see a number of Blood posts assuming a 51/13/7 spec. Does someone have modeling that shows this to be better? It seems like, again, you're spending 10 points buffing Icy Touch just to get Annihilation, when you have the option with 51/0/20 for things like Necrosis, BCB which is better than it used to be, 5% total strength boost, and/or 3% spell hit. Even with a 2h weapon, the choice seems obvious to me.

It's also worth pointing out that Epidemic is still useful without Annihilation, especially as I've found for stretching out the 4 HS + DCs/Sudden Doom part of the rotation in Blood Presence. With Annihilation, you'd still have to refresh your diseases to accomplish this.

Wait, was the old(or soon to be nerfed) UB affected by wandering plague? Otherwise, what was THAT great about it?

It's late and I'm very tired, but wasn't this just a flat 2/4/6% increased miss chance against you before? IOW, the avoidance got cut in half, and I also don't remember it being explicitly melee only before either, although it may have always been that way and just not documented. I'm not seeing any upside whatsoever, although it was probably too good before.

I'll be interested to see what, if anything, they do with frost DPS between now and release. They massively overbudgeted Tundra Stalker in the previous few patches, I think, but the reasoning was because frost DPS was behind the other two trees. I don't think packing a ton of goodies into 5 points is good design and evidently they don't either. But if you assume that the overall DPS increase the last incarnation of TS gave brought frost in line with blood and unholy (not unreasonable, if anything I think it may have been a bit low sustained still, but good burst), then removing it without compensation puts frost well below the other two trees for raid DPS once again. The slight nerfs to blood and unholy this patch don't really even it out.

Scourge Strike damage increase. Unless you left it out intentionally, it was pretty neat.

Has anyone tested a 50/0/21 build with the Gargoyle changes?

Before it gave a target that struck you in combat a 6 second debuff to hit you by 2/4/6%. Now it's a flat 1/2/3% reduced chance to hit. The reason I say it's about similar is because it required you to be hit once for the effect to proc. So, if some mob had an attack speed faster than 3 seconds it was more of a debuff since it would effect more than one attack, but against mobs with a faster attack speed than that it basically has the same effect as it does now. I say this is a buff because it makes our avoidance more consistent. Before, I imagine in the worse case, a really hard attack could get through clean, cause the proc, and then only effect far weaker attacks. Now the talent is not easy prey for the RNG. Also, I'm not sure of this, but it was a debuff on the mob taking up a debuff slot which could be over written by a raid buff, but I am definitely not sure on that. Finally I believe this effects spells, where before it required you to be struck, so a caster could use fireball all day and never worry about procing it. I hope I'm not lying through my teeth about all this though.

Like I promised here are some dmg tests after the last patch.

Target is boss dummy.

My gear is all pvp premade with no change, no glyphs, Fallen crusader on weapon.

This time I used ony one DK and respeced for every build, DK is Undead.

Blood presence used in all three builds, Hysteria, Dancing rune weapon, Unholy blight, Bone shield, Horn of winter, Gargoyle and Unbreakable armor up at all times when possible.

Blood build

Frost build

Unholy build

Gargoyle was 7% of total dmg, DPS 495

Dancing rune weapon was 4% of total dmg, DPS 434

Blood results





Frost results





Unholy results





When you merge pet results, gargoyle and dancing rune weapon:

#1 DPS Unholy
#2 DPS Blood
#3 DPS Frost

Blood and Frost very very close, while Unholy is still the best.

With Frost you get biggest yellow numbers and the burst is just insane

I beg to differ. The 4th disease UB granted was what set it apart. And quite frankly, judging by the nerfs to both Unholy and Frost, Blizzard isnt trying to bring them in line with anything.

They dont really have a clue atm.

I beg to differ also. I think it was the third disease that set unholy apart from the other trees. Since most deathknight ability gain bonus damage per disease Unholy was netting more than double the bonus damage of the other trees. Now it's around 50%. A nerf true, but still more than the others. An Unholy deathknight using the obliterate glyph for fun, would literally obliterate something. Unholy blight is still arguably better than either Frost's or Blood's 51 point talent.

I do believe they are trying to bring the trees in line with blood and make all the trees equally appealing, and if not appealing, at least equal in dps production. There intention has been repeated over and over, they want talents to be about fun, not about min/max optimization. This really is the first class where they could do that from the ground up. Once all the trees fall in a similar line Blizzard can begin bumping up their dps as a whole. Right now is the time to fetter out unintended or over powered synergies, they're still in the that phase and likely will be right up until live.

@Mito: Just curious, are you seeing Merciless Combat go up against the targeting dummies? I'm not sure if their mechanics actually allow their health to go below 35% to get the buff. Thanks for the parses!

So yet again, the suggestion here is the Unholy is being 'brought in line' with Blood. Why not buff Blood instead?

To me, the answer seems pretty clear. Given that they just nerfed Frost, they dont really know what they want to bring DK in line with atm. We are 3-4 weeks away from WotlK release and theyre still not sure how high they want our dps. Thats very troubling to me, given the kind of dps were seeing from hunters etc (although this difference could be gear).

And that somehow explains why they nerfed one of the skills that really set Unholy apart from the other trees? They want talents to be about fun, so they nerf the unique aspect of a 51 pt talent?

Seems pretty contradictory to me.

They know what they want our DPS: As close to the others as they can. At most you will see a 50 dps difference in either player's favorable conditions. Maybe less, I dunno. But it's no longer a drastic and segregated dps chart.

Some of these numbers are skewed. Its being worked on.

Now on why not buff blood instead? Well they can feel that blood is damn stable right now. Its a fairly straightforward tree, nothing fancy, nothing special. As unappealing as it is, they know well enough that the entire tree as it stands is more strongly balanced than Unholy or Frost. So then buffing Blood would be simple, even trivial. Unholy played in a completely different ballpark, because it was "unique." They don't just want all their dps to be the same, but to scale fairly similarly as well. What Unholy had a problem was on the scaling factor with 4 diseases.

The Tundra Stalker nerf was from a buff to frost to bring its dps up to par with blood and unholy. That came along with making Frost Strike un dodge/parry/block-able. But apparently both didn't need to change.

Just got off beta, a few things I noticed with the recent changes...

1) SS damage remains otherwise unchanged, of course we have 1 less disease to work with now.
2) Unholy blight IS affected by crypt fever even though it no longer counts as a disease.
3) They added arms back to desecrations animation, but this time they appear randomly, don't grab, and have a skeletal look to them:

I havent played as Frost spec in game environment, only for this dummy test, so I dont know should I see any buff pop out for Merciless Combat, the dummy was at 1 HP so they do go below 35% health.

Do they trigger the the mechanics I dont know, sorry. I think its just adds up to the damage like Blood Gorged is for Blood.

Does anyone know if Bladed Armor, Toughness, and Unbreakable Armor stack with each other? In other words, when you pop UA (+25% armor) and have Toughness and Bladed Armor, is your Atk Pwr increased more than when you pop UA and don't have Toughness? I realize it would only be a difference of a couple dozen AP, but I'm looking at a Frost DPS build something like: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00000000000000

Wondering if points would be better spent in Toughness, fill up Runic Power Mastery, or Frost Aura. I plan on adjusting Runic Power Mastery based on how my rotations end up being and how much extra RP I ever end up having. But even if I max it, i still have 1 point left.

Also, any mobs in Naxx or 5-mans fear (or sleep, MC/charm) at all? Perhaps Lichbourne wouldn't be a complete waste. Combination Will of the Forsaken + pseudo-evasion.

How could Lichborne ever be a waste? For one talent point you get another low-cooldown avoidance ability and fear breaker.

I made several test with the new patch content.

DWB1 DW Blood Presence PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-UB-SS-SS-SS-DC-DC 140 secondes run, 126 secondes DOT, 84 secondes desecration, 140 secondes UB, 14 IT, 14 PS, 14 BS, 28 SS, 14 DC
DWB2 DW Blood Presence PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-UB-SS-SS-BS-BS-DC-DC 140 secondes run, 126 secondes DOT, 84 secondes desecration, 140 secondes UB, 14 IT, 14 PS, 28 BS, 14 SS, 14 DC
DWB3 DW Blood Presence PS-IT-SS-BS-UB-BS-PS-IT-DC-SS-SS-DC 140 secondes run, 126 secondes DOT, 140 secondes desecration, 140 secondes UB, 28 IT, 28 PS, 14 BS, 21 SS, 17 DC
DWB4 DW Blood Presence PS-IT-SS-BS-UB-BS-PS-IT-DC-SS-BS-BS-DC 140 secondes run, 126 secondes DOT, 140 secondes desecration, 140 secondes UB, 28 IT, 28 PS, 28 BS, 14 SS, 17 DC
DWU1 DW Unholly Presence PS-IT-BS-PS-UB-IT-BS-PS-IT-DC-PS-IT-DC-PS-IT-DC 120 secondes run, 108 secondes blood plagues, 90 secondes frost fever, 120 secondes desecration, 120 secondes UB, 30 IT, 30 PS, 12 BS, 22 DC
DWU2 DW Unholly Presence PS-IT-BS-PS-UB-IT-BS-PS-IT-BS-DC-PS-IT-BS-DC 120 secondes run, 108 secondes blood plagues, 90 secondes frost fever, 120 secondes desecration, 120 secondes UB, 24 IT, 24 PS, 24 BS, 19 DC
2HB1 2H Blood Presence PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-UB-SS-SS-SS-DC-DC 140 secondes run, 126 secondes DOT, 84 secondes desecration, 140 secondes UB, 14 IT, 14 PS, 14 BS, 28 SS, 14 DC
2HB2 2H Blood Presence PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-UB-SS-SS-BS-BS-DC-DC 140 secondes run, 126 secondes DOT, 84 secondes desecration, 140 secondes UB, 14 IT, 14 PS, 28 BS, 14 SS, 14 DC
2HB3 2H Blood Presence PS-IT-SS-BS-UB-BS-PS-IT-DC-SS-SS-DC 140 secondes run, 126 secondes DOT, 140 secondes desecration, 140 secondes UB, 28 IT, 28 PS, 14 BS, 21 SS, 17 DC
2HB4 2H Blood Presence PS-IT-SS-BS-UB-BS-PS-IT-DC-SS-BS-BS-DC 140 secondes run, 126 secondes DOT, 140 secondes desecration, 140 secondes UB, 28 IT, 28 PS, 28 BS, 14 SS, 17 DC
2HU2 2H Unholly Presence PS-IT-BS-PS-UB-IT-BS-PS-IT-DC-PS-IT-DC-PS-IT-DC 120 secondes run, 108 secondes blood plagues, 90 secondes frost fever, 120 secondes desecration, 120 secondes UB, 30 IT, 30 PS, 12 BS, 22 DC
2HU3 2H Unholly Presence PS-IT-BS-PS-UB-IT-BS-PS-IT-BS-DC-PS-IT-BS-DC 120 secondes run, 108 secondes blood plagues, 90 secondes frost fever, 120 secondes desecration, 120 secondes UB, 24 IT, 24 PS, 24 BS, 19 DC

With template :

DWB1 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150203133151
DWB2 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150203133151
DWB3 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150203133151
DWB4 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00150203133151
DWU1 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150203133151
DWU2 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00150203133151
2HB1 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150203133151
2HB2 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00150203133151
2HB3 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150203133151
2HB4 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00150203133151
2HU1 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150203133151
2HU2 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00150203133151

I end with :


Winner are :
_DWB4 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00150203133151
_2HB4 http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00150203133151

with this rotation :
PS-IT-SS-BS-UB-BS-PS-IT-DC-SS-BS-BS-DC

Run in Blood presence.

Side note, the test is run without bump STR but AP, the result between 2H or DW might be different with the hugh difference procc of rune of crusader between both spec.

EDIT : I tried by bump STR instead of AP, and 2 hands is still better, the nerf of BcB ( one disease less ) finally kill DW specc, sad thing since they said want have both closer as possible...

I put a double post, instead of edit, an admin can delete the post below please ?

Imp Icy Touch has not been nerfed, it's just a tooltip bug. So the 0% doesn't mean anything, it still reduced the targets melee and ranged attack speed to 20% when fully talanted.

Acclimation is a mistake on mmo-champions part, it still has a 30% chance when fully specced into it.

Moratia: Were those tests done in game or with a spreadsheet of some sort?

Is CC critical chance? If so why so low? Obviously such a low crit chance is going to greatly benefit unholy since it has by far the worst criticals. 40% crit with 35% haste is probably more realistic numbers.

Up from spreadsheet, yes CC is critical chance, i put this kinda randomly, it doesn't really matter since i only worked on unholly build/rotation.

Not all abilities scale the same way with crit, so this could affect your results. Additionally, spending 5 points improving icy touch to get to Nerves of Cold Steel for the DWing bonus seems unlikely to be a better use of those points than picking up full bladed armor and dark conviction, which could change things a bit. Also, you make no mention of what, if any, glyphs you're using - imp SS for instance could let you skip IT on some rotations, or imp IT could give you more RP to use. Every rotation you show has an equal number of ITs and PSs, it seems likely that using PS more often to keep desecrate up and only using IT to refresh frost fever could be a better strategy, especially if you use reaping to power that PS with a death rune on the half of your rotation that doesn't refresh IT. Oh, and what level of buffs are you assuming? The presence of buffs like windfury that increase melee haste will change how different parts of your dps scale, which could affect your priorities. So could AP buffs, etc, and whether or not you're having to keep up horn of winter will change the number of GCDs and RP you have available for DPS per minute.

Interesting work though, I certainly don't want to even think about the complexities of trying to model DK dps - oh, one last comment - does your spreadsheet model BCB offhand procs as depending on OH damage or MH damage? Unless it's changed, it works off MH damage, which is part of why Nerves of Cold Steel may not be a talent worth trying to pick up.

I assume all raid buff aviable and haven't to refresh horn of winter ( since it's include with raid buff ).
I used glyph of plague strike, ice touch and blood strike.

Yes i calcul BcB always on MH.

I try to do the same test without going to nerves of cold steel in DW.

Bump with AP i end at 5770,49
Bump with STR i end at 6277,39

So still behind 2 hands.