They could always make the boss do a short cooldown magic attack (eg: fireblast) on the tank. That would eat up bone armor charges and solve the possible imbalance
The thing is they shouldn't have to design around bone armor. It shouldn't go from bad, to good, to totally op depending on the fight.
The one thing I don't get about Bone Shield is that it's a cooldown ability with a duration significantly longer (5 min) than the cooldown (1 min). I understand you want to have it on constantly while DPSing but I can't think of another such buff.
I'm sure there are some fights with RTS/aoe dmg that would consume the charges and lower uptime of Bone Shield, but it seems like they just threw in a completely out-of-whack perma-buff that has amazing utility, and they are erring on the side of "more useful" than "tough to use". The other similar abilities in other trees last only 20 seconds.
Perhaps it could be adjusted to be 10% reduced damage per bone charge available (making the glyph that much better but the ability overall less so).
Two problems with this. The first is that it is 5 bones with the glyph. The second is that it really only needs to last 45 seconds to have 100% coverage of IBF or Bone Armor. According to the spreadsheet when bone armor lasts more than twenty seconds unholy > frost.
From what I can tell the spreadsheet does not take into account diminishing returns, but as a night elf I get 85.2% evasion in the best tier 7 25 man gear fully buffed, all gemmed and enchanted. With diminishing I have no idea where this number is but I am sure it is high enough to give a 30 or 40 second bone shield if not longer on a fight with no unavoidable attacks.
If bone armor stays as is, they will basically have to design encounters around always having attacks which consume bones being thrown on the tank.
If you are referring to Tantlin's spreadsheet, it does account for diminishing returns. I don't have Excel 2007, so I can't point you to the exact cell, but it's where you see a few (1/X + 1/Y) statements.
Another thing, I don't think his spreadsheet is accounting for the extra 10% parry on UA. He does when doing HPM, but I can't see where that gets factored into the avoidance TTL results. If you add an average 3.33% parry to the overall stats, Frost and Unholy become much close. On my own spreadsheet(I modified Ziggy's from maintankadin), I have frost and UA neck and neck through all mitigation. I'm having trouble finding the differences between our two sheets besides the UA parry thing.
His BS uptime calculations are correct though, near enough as you can ask from a spreadsheet. The method he uses is an binomial distribution average. Of course, since the player is going to refresh BS every minute, any cases where BS lasts longer than a minute are counted in the average but are thrown out in the game. So, the spreadsheet will report average uptime a bit higher than it will actually be, and as that number approaches 100%, the difference will be more pronounced.
The thing is they shouldn't have to design around bone armor. It shouldn't go from bad, to good, to totally op depending on the fight.
Points taken but I still see three potential hiccups for Bone Shield: large groups, mobs with a fast attacks speed, and caster mobs. If dots consume bones then it could go even faster, it would be a shame to have to bust anti magic shell just to keep bone armor up when it might better be used to deflect a massive magic attack. Also casters mobs are unaffected by our avoidance. With these things in mind I think it will be difficult to consistently keep Bone Shield up for much longer than 20 sec. Finally, I believe Ghostcrawler said that they intended Vampiric Blood, Unbreakable Armor, and Bone Shield to be roughly equivalent in their tanking benefit (cited) so if Bone Shield is shown to be vastly superior to the others, which seems to be roughly the conclusion, then I'm almost certain that the others will be buffed up to compete.
Last edited by Arkasi : 10/20/08 at 1:24 PM.
Reason: Citation
While I agree with your points about the weaknesses of Bone Shield, I wholeheartedly disagree about the whole buffing part
I would venture a guess that dots would eat a charge upon application. I think someone mentioned a few pages back to just making frost and unholy your two specs and switching between them based on encounters. Frost for trash, unholy for bosses. In the end though, I might just go Frost to avoid the headache of different playstyles. And Howling Blast is that cool. Only thing I would miss is the extra healing from Death Strike(was it ever tested if the heal causes threat?).
Only thing I would miss is the extra healing from Death Strike(was it ever tested if the heal causes threat?).
Frost can still Death Strike, although not as good as Unholy.
For a Paladin, the healing from JoL does cause threat, luckliy for Ret it is affected by the -30% and -25% respective threat modifiers and luckily for Prot it is affected by the 90% RF modifier (as well as the normal -25% modifier on healing).
Threat seems so high that it doesn't seem necessary, but I would think DKs get threat for it too.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
If you are referring to Tantlin's spreadsheet, it does account for diminishing returns. I don't have Excel 2007, so I can't point you to the exact cell, but it's where you see a few (1/X + 1/Y) statements.
Another thing, I don't think his spreadsheet is accounting for the extra 10% parry on UA. He does when doing HPM, but I can't see where that gets factored into the avoidance TTL results. If you add an average 3.33% parry to the overall stats, Frost and Unholy become much close. On my own spreadsheet(I modified Ziggy's from maintankadin), I have frost and UA neck and neck through all mitigation. I'm having trouble finding the differences between our two sheets besides the UA parry thing.
His BS uptime calculations are correct though, near enough as you can ask from a spreadsheet. The method he uses is an binomial distribution average. Of course, since the player is going to refresh BS every minute, any cases where BS lasts longer than a minute are counted in the average but are thrown out in the game. So, the spreadsheet will report average uptime a bit higher than it will actually be, and as that number approaches 100%, the difference will be more pronounced.
You are right that it does not account for the 10% parry on UA.
It definitely does not account for diminishing in the last version he posted, I add 39 dodge rating and I gain exactly 1% dodge, same holds true for 49 parry. When bone shield goes that high it basically makes dks by far the best tank of the four. Even on a boss with a 1 second attack speed you will still have huge bone armor uptime by the time tier 9 is coming around. It may be close on the average tier 7 boss but there is no way that will hold true by tier 9, bone armor scales far better than unbreakable armor. I would be very interested in seeing a spreadsheet with diminishing returns implemented, I am curious when we actually hit this 85% avoidance point.
As for the trash comment someone made, dks can basically icebound fortitude every trash pack (if you stopped to drink and put marks up) so they are the best tank for trash regardless of what spec they are.
I thought pally healing had an extra 50% threat reduction, not 25%.
Anyway, when I was toying around with a DS Unholy build, they had two extra diseases, so you got 3x damage->healing instead of 2.5x now. Still, depending on how much of the heal you actually use, DS could be higher threat moves than Obliterate or Scourge Strike.
EDIT: Flaming, there's a spreadsheet here, that I was referring to:
It has a weird spec(veteran of the third war and frost), but it's easy enough to edit. BS isn't in there either, but easy enough to edit as well. I'm pretty sure he does diminishing returns as well.
Frost can still Death Strike, although not as good as Unholy.
I wonder if a Frost build would benefit more from Glyph of Death Strike than Unholy since it has fewer costly runic power dumps. Ultimately not as good as Unholy's third disease but definitely could get up to 10 to 20 percent extra healing with absolutely no downside other than a used glyph slot.
I'm currently writing a DK module for my simulator (Doc's PvE Simulator : WoWInterface Downloads : Data Mods), since I'm rerolling one.
Is there a reliable theorycraft source? I haven't found one, they are either totally outdated or incomplete. I guess I'll have to ask here .
Thanks, at least someone . I've already found your spreadsheet, it's the best source avaiable at the moment.
The worst thing will be doing the rotations. They are so easy to mess up.
Thanks, at least someone . I've already found your spreadsheet, it's the best source avaiable at the moment.
The worst thing will be doing the rotations. They are so easy to mess up.
The bottom line is, you have to make them variable.
I ran into the same problem not to long ago. I designed the spreadsheet around very specific rotations and then just made bug fixes as things changed. This caused a huge problem when the rotations started changing dramatically. All the little bug fixes I had made started to work against me. Eventually I had to redesign the entire thing around a variable rotation (a non-trivial problem), which I'm still working on.
From one programmer to another (although I don't really think of excel as programming), I recommend variable rotations to avoid future kludges.
Someone asked me a very tough question about the effect of misses/dodges/parries on a DK dps rotation (a largely unsolved issue) and I though I'd share my thoughts here
One of the advantages of not using a simulator is that I can average out certain kinds of events. In this short piece though, I proposed a "keep trying" model for dps. Let's take the following example:
I cast Plague Strike. It's dodged. I recast Plague Strike. Under the old system of runes (with 2 seconds cooldown) my ability to recast PS was based upon how many unholy runes I had during the first cast. As a result this model was inefficient. Recent changes in runes however, now have a 1 second CD on a miss. Since this is shorter than the smallest possible GCD, that rune will be up again when you have a chance to recast. As a result you can propagate the "keep trying" model (abbreviated KT from here on).
Now, when dealing with a simple rotation (PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-repeat) the KT model is sufficient for most probabilities (a string of 3 misses at 86% hit is less than 1% or .0027). To augment this model all we have to do is count misses as lost RP filler time (ie. any extra time you have in a rotation is filled with your RP dump: frost strike, UB, DC). This constitutes the Filler Model (the current model my spreadsheet is using).
However, this does not hold true for more complicated rotations (PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-filler-SS-SS-SS). A miss (or two) will push those later SS off of the diseases. As a result they do less damage. Instead of the traditional KT/Filler model we have to develop a new model based around disease up time.
The disease model, should work as follows: Instead of looking at time, we look at diseases. Every miss now shortens the length of the appropriate disease by the GCD (ie. time lost). As a result, the damage of latter SS (or Heart Strikes/Obliterates/whatever) is modified by the probable end time of that disease. If that disease is likely to end before the GCD of that attack it is not counted. If it is likely to end after the GCD of the attack it is always counted. If it is likely to end during the GCD of the attack then it is proportionally applied based on the amount of time it takes place during the attack. IE: Blood Plague would end .75 seconds into a 1.5 second GCD of Heart Strike then we do .5*disease bonus (or 1.5 if FF ends after). This KT/Disease model would adequately consider the ramifications of earlier misses.
While this model still does not take into account very low probability events (such as 4 or more misses), nor the effect of misses on death runes, it is still a good base point for discussing the over all effect of missing on a DK dps rotation.
I have a quick question about rotations. Why is the standard unholy rotation PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-repeat instead of PS-IT-BS-SS-BS-DC or Garg until runes then SSs? Basically I am asking why most models don't include more realist RPDs?
I have a quick question about rotations. Why is the standard unholy rotation PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-repeat instead of PS-IT-BS-SS-BS-DC or Garg until runes then SSs? Basically I am asking why most models don't include more realist RPDs?
Are you asking why it's BS, BS, SS instead of BS, SS, BS or are you asking why there is no RP habilities in the rotations?
If it's the first option I prefer to use SS right after the disease abilities so in the case of a string of avoidance it's a Blood Strike and not a Scourge Strike the ability that hits without diseases.
If it's the second, it's not included because it's suposed. After your rotation you have to spend your runic power, and depending on cooldowns and RP quantity there is a lot of options (DC, UB, Garg)
Someone asked me a very tough question about the effect of misses/dodges/parries on a DK dps rotation (a largely unsolved issue) and I though I'd share my thoughts here
One of the advantages of not using a simulator is that I can average out certain kinds of events. In this short piece though, I proposed a "keep trying" model for dps. Let's take the following example:
I cast Plague Strike. It's dodged. I recast Plague Strike. Under the old system of runes (with 2 seconds cooldown) my ability to recast PS was based upon how many unholy runes I had during the first cast. As a result this model was inefficient. Recent changes in runes however, now have a 1 second CD on a miss. Since this is shorter than the smallest possible GCD, that rune will be up again when you have a chance to recast. As a result you can propagate the "keep trying" model (abbreviated KT from here on).
Now, when dealing with a simple rotation (PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-repeat) the KT model is sufficient for most probabilities (a string of 3 misses at 86% hit is less than 1% or .0027). To augment this model all we have to do is count misses as lost RP filler time (ie. any extra time you have in a rotation is filled with your RP dump: frost strike, UB, DC). This constitutes the Filler Model (the current model my spreadsheet is using).
However, this does not hold true for more complicated rotations (PS-IT-BS-BS-SS-filler-SS-SS-SS). A miss (or two) will push those later SS off of the diseases. As a result they do less damage. Instead of the traditional KT/Filler model we have to develop a new model based around disease up time.
The disease model, should work as follows: Instead of looking at time, we look at diseases. Every miss now shortens the length of the appropriate disease by the GCD (ie. time lost). As a result, the damage of latter SS (or Heart Strikes/Obliterates/whatever) is modified by the probable end time of that disease. If that disease is likely to end before the GCD of that attack it is not counted. If it is likely to end after the GCD of the attack it is always counted. If it is likely to end during the GCD of the attack then it is proportionally applied based on the amount of time it takes place during the attack. IE: Blood Plague would end .75 seconds into a 1.5 second GCD of Heart Strike then we do .5*disease bonus (or 1.5 if FF ends after). This KT/Disease model would adequately consider the ramifications of earlier misses.
While this model still does not take into account very low probability events (such as 4 or more misses), nor the effect of misses on death runes, it is still a good base point for discussing the over all effect of missing on a DK dps rotation.
Interesting, some immediate observations:
1. It would a appear that Filler = 3 rune < 2 rune < 1 rune , would be the order of cost per miss.
2. If you start the KT/Disease model at the first disease application then missing the second disease is the next most costly miss after general 1 rune abilities. In addition due to IT's inherently higher chance to miss it is the most costly miss overall. To keep KT/D model from starting prematurely you should always lead with IT.
3. In this model Epidemic becomes even more essential to cover for misses as it can cover you for the low probability events.
4. Against multiple targets it is possible to put the KT/D model into a maintenance cycle by using a pestilence target rotation every rotation. In this maintence cycle your diseases effectively have an infinite duration until 1 target is left and then the model falls into standard operation.
Someone tried the blood strike glyph ( increase damage by % if target is snared ) on a boss ?
With desecration, boss should be snare, does it work like "dazed", boss immune to daze itself but consider "dazed" for all skill involved it ( like heroic strike ).
Or does the boss is fully immune, not snared and not consider dazed for skill ?
With desecration boss is snared = slowed not dazed, and according to the past posts they do get this effect making the bloodstrike glyph effective, however i heard that in some situations desecration can be tricky cause sometimes its not easy to apply it "under" the boss, ofcourse you can run right under him to do so but mostly we dps at the edge of the hitbox.
Immune to snare: Well maybe there will be bosses who are but for example in TBC Mage's slow spell was appliable at encounters and it's also a snare effect.
You are right that it does not account for the 10% parry on UA.
It definitely does not account for diminishing in the last version he posted, I add 39 dodge rating and I gain exactly 1% dodge, same holds true for 49 parry. When bone shield goes that high it basically makes dks by far the best tank of the four. Even on a boss with a 1 second attack speed you will still have huge bone armor uptime by the time tier 9 is coming around. It may be close on the average tier 7 boss but there is no way that will hold true by tier 9, bone armor scales far better than unbreakable armor. I would be very interested in seeing a spreadsheet with diminishing returns implemented, I am curious when we actually hit this 85% avoidance point.
As for the trash comment someone made, dks can basically icebound fortitude every trash pack (if you stopped to drink and put marks up) so they are the best tank for trash regardless of what spec they are.
Heres the a much newer version which includes fixes for the DR mechanics I mispplaced where in the formula you convert to percent, which reversed the returns, anyway, it's fixed and UA glyped parry is averaged in if you spec for the talent.
If you see any other mistakes please feel free to point them out, as with as much as is in these spread sheets its very easy to miss something.
I'm almost done with the Rawr DPS module, I have a few last questions:
1) Is there a base damage value to Frost Fever/Blood Plague? On wowhead it only mentions 5.5% of AP, but the damage the module is spitting out seems a little low. Could be a math error but I just want to make sure.
2) I need a confirmation on the new behavior of UB. From my tests on beta, while UB didn't count as a disease for strikes, it WAS affected by Crypt Fever.
3) Confirmation that BCB has NO ICD.
4) For custom rotations, my plan was to give an interface that allows you to input cycle duration, number of diseases used, disease uptime % (related to strikes, so if you always are missing one disease on the last strike of a rotation you'd change the % accordingly), and the NUMBER of each ability used in each cycle. Does this cover everything you might need to enter for a rotation?
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I'm almost done with the Rawr DPS module, I have a few last questions:
1) Is there a base damage value to Frost Fever/Blood Plague? On wowhead it only mentions 5.5% of AP, but the damage the module is spitting out seems a little low. Could be a math error but I just want to make sure.
2) I need a confirmation on the new behavior of UB. From my tests on beta, while UB didn't count as a disease for strikes, it WAS affected by Crypt Fever.
3) Confirmation that BCB has NO ICD.
4) For custom rotations, my plan was to give an interface that allows you to input cycle duration, number of diseases used, disease uptime % (related to strikes, so if you always are missing one disease on the last strike of a rotation you'd change the % accordingly), and the NUMBER of each ability used in each cycle. Does this cover everything you might need to enter for a rotation?
I'm halfway done with my sim .
1) The tooltip tells shows me the base damage.
3) I've seen two procs in a row in this build.
I have a question, too. Are our spells treated like all regular spells?
I have a question, too. Are our spells treated like all regular spells?
In terms of resist rates and crit rates, yes. However the damage seems purely based off attack power ONLY, adding spell damage seems to have no effect on it. Also keep in mind elemental strikes (Frost Strike, Scourge Strike) also succumb to the rules of partial resists, however their chance to land and crit are based of melee values.
Also I thought the tooltip doesn't show you the base damage, it shows you the damage with AP applied. Take off some gear and watch the value change.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I have a question, too. Are our spells treated like all regular spells?
Not sure if I am answering your question, but I believe the only difference between our spells and all spells is that crit damage is 100% instead of 50%.
So our spells are based on spellcrit/spellhit and the caster raidbuffs affect them (except +spelldmg). Is the GCD of our spells lowered, too?
Originally Posted by Zurm
In terms of resist rates and crit rates, yes. However the damage seems purely based off attack power ONLY, adding spell damage seems to have no effect on it. Also keep in mind elemental strikes (Frost Strike, Scourge Strike) also succumb to the rules of partial resists, however their chance to land and crit are based of melee values.
Also I thought the tooltip doesn't show you the base damage, it shows you the damage with AP applied. Take off some gear and watch the value change.
My tooltip show the base and the bonus damage, bonus stays the same when naked.
10/20/08, 11:40 AM
. I've already found your spreadsheet, it's the best source avaiable at the moment.
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