So our spells are based on spellcrit/spellhit and the caster raidbuffs affect them. Is the GCD of our spells lowered, too?
Nope. My fault. We don't use any spell stats. We use Melee hit and crit for spells too. Deathknight spells scale off of melee stats. However our spells do have the universal spell miss chance of 17%. Finally haste does not speed the global cooldown of abilities, or if it does the modifier is so low that no one has noticed it, as far as most people have noticed haste only appears to speed out swing timer. The global cooldowns are 1.5 seconds in blood and frost presence across the board, with a few exceptions, and 1.0 seconds in unholy.
So our spells are based on spellcrit/spellhit and the caster raidbuffs affect them. Is the GCD of our spells lowered, too?
Yea, since crit rating is universal, just take the same crit rating and use the spell coefficients. Yes, the GCD of our SPELLS are lowered by haste, at least from my older beta tests.
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
My tooltip show the base and the bonus damage, bonus stays the same when naked.
Hm, I never noticed this. I'll check it out, thanks.
Originally Posted by Arkasi
Nope. My fault. We don't use any spell stats. We use Melee hit and crit for spells too. Deathknight spells scale off of melee stats. However our spells do have the universal spell miss chance of 17%.
Are you sure?
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I pulled this information from here. It was discussed and assumed to be 17% a dozen or so pages back, if our hit cap for spells is in fact lower or higher now would be an excellent time to find out.
All types of attacks be it melee or spell gain the same crit % from Crit Rating now. Crit % gained from agility does not apply to our spells i believe.
All types of attacks be it melee or spell gain the same crit % from Crit Rating now. Crit % gained from agility does not apply to our spells i believe.
He's more interested in the effect of the unavoidable agility on some of our gear, I believe. If the crit from agility affects our spells instead of that from int, it's a substantial gain.
Do you too think that some of the unholy glyphs are counterproductive with some unholy talents?
Like SS glyph does not work well with Desecration talent, pretty useless talent with that glyph.
PS glyph is useless together with SS one but i guess thats okay.
Would be good if Desecration could proc of blood plague or some other thing. Also Epidemic does not work well with Desecration, since the one has 12 second duration and the other 18 seconds.
The SS glyph is nice, but remember it certainly doesn't guarantee 100% uptime for blood plague and frost fever, plague strike will certainly still be used.
He's more interested in the effect of the unavoidable agility on some of our gear, I believe. If the crit from agility affects our spells instead of that from int, it's a substantial gain.
Just conjecture but since we would get zero benefit from intellect other than spell crit, and our gear has unavoidable agility and not unavoidable intellect, I'd be inclined to think that our spells would scale with agility instead.
Based on absolutely tons of recount data while leveling, and a very different spell and melee crit rate due to the randomish gear involved, I am 99% certain that our spells (Icy Touch, Howling Blast, and Death Coil) crit based on intellect rather than agility. Frost Strike and Scourge Strike appear to crit based on agility.
The difference between my spell and melee crit hovered around 10% so we're definitely talking about an observable difference, which was, in fact, observed.
I don't have "proof" or screenshots or whatever, but I was definitely paying attention to it for my own theorycrafting purposes.
Based on absolutely tons of recount data while leveling, and a very different spell and melee crit rate due to the randomish gear involved, I am 99% certain that our spells (Icy Touch, Howling Blast, and Death Coil) crit based on intellect rather than agility. Frost Strike and Scourge Strike appear to crit based on agility.
The difference between my spell and melee crit hovered around 10% so we're definitely talking about an observable difference, which was, in fact, observed.
I don't have "proof" or screenshots or whatever, but I was definitely paying attention to it for my own theorycrafting purposes.
Thank you, this is how I currently have it modeled.
Originally Posted by Applejuiced
The SS glyph is nice, but remember it certainly doesn't guarantee 100% uptime for blood plague and frost fever, plague strike will certainly still be used.
I actually strongly question the benefit of the SS glyph. We would want to PS anyway as unholy for desecration...maybe I'm just off but see other glyphs as being better options.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Based on absolutely tons of recount data while leveling, and a very different spell and melee crit rate due to the randomish gear involved, I am 99% certain that our spells (Icy Touch, Howling Blast, and Death Coil) crit based on intellect rather than agility. Frost Strike and Scourge Strike appear to crit based on agility.
Our character sheet doesn't show int affecting spellcrit, it's just based on crit rating.
Based on absolutely tons of recount data while leveling, and a very different spell and melee crit rate due to the randomish gear involved, I am 99% certain that our spells (Icy Touch, Howling Blast, and Death Coil) crit based on intellect rather than agility. Frost Strike and Scourge Strike appear to crit based on agility.
The difference between my spell and melee crit hovered around 10% so we're definitely talking about an observable difference, which was, in fact, observed.
I don't have "proof" or screenshots or whatever, but I was definitely paying attention to it for my own theorycrafting purposes.
We actually get spell crit only from crit rating. Int doesn't affect it and neither does agi (easily testable w/ Horn of Winter). The biggest disparity you are noticing is that DKs have 0% base spell crit.
At least that's one assumption now proven correct!
Since I haven't raided much on the beta recently, I was curious if any current raiders could enlighten me...
Given the recent round of changes/nerfs, is the situation still the same regarding specs? Meaning blood is good as a replacement for an enhancement shaman, unholy is good to have one for other DKs, and frost is the best personal PvE dps given an unholy DK is present?
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
We actually get spell crit only from crit rating. Int doesn't affect it and neither does agi (easily testable w/ Horn of Winter). The biggest disparity you are noticing is that DKs have 0% base spell crit.
Correct. Crit rating for all crit, agi contributes to melee crit. Int and spell power do nothing, which makes sense since none of our gear has it, nor would we want it for anything else. I believe that other melee classes work similarly now-- rogue poisons, for instance, scale with AP, use the spell hit cap but crit based on crit rating-- int has no effect.
The SS glyph is nice, but remember it certainly doesn't guarantee 100% uptime for blood plague and frost fever, plague strike will certainly still be used.
But with every proc it makes Desecration useless, since it needs PS to proc.
And many specs with SS usually have Desecration too. They just dont work well together.
This seems like a good way to look at it, and really shows how important Epidemic is in just about any spec/rotation, even if you don't have Annihilation.
I'm glad some people who know what they're doing are working this, because I'm discovering how little I know about making spreadsheets. I can do the math, but I don't think my sheet is going to be customizable enough to be useful to anyone but me.
But with every proc it makes Desecration useless, since it needs PS to proc.
And many specs with SS usually have Desecration too. They just dont work well together.
I think it's not so much that it makes Desecration useless. I think it's mainly that the SS glyph just isn't good enough to warrant changing your rotation. An Unholy rotation with Epidemic can squeeze in 4 SSes (assuming you leave Desecration uptime at 50%ish, which I think we decided was better). At a 25% chance for the SS glyph to proc, you could easily see rotations without a proc all the time, so you'd still have to refresh diseases.
Besides that, because of the rune mechanic, your rotations always have to come back to the same basic set-- anytime you add an extra ability in, you're basically pre-spending on your next rotation, and isn't necessarily a net gain. Refreshing your diseases at odd times with SS makes you dependent on a proc around the same time in the next 20 sec rotation, which is a total crapshoot with a 25% proc. No matter how you look at it, you're gonna have to keep using PT-IT at regular intervals.
So yeah, like Zurm said, I think there are better glyphs for Unholy dps. I could see it being quite useful in PvP, though, where ability use is going to be more variable.
Correct. Crit rating for all crit, agi contributes to melee crit. Int and spell power do nothing, which makes sense since none of our gear has it, nor would we want it for anything else. I believe that other melee classes work similarly now-- rogue poisons, for instance, scale with AP, use the spell hit cap but crit based on crit rating-- int has no effect.
It's unfortunate for us though that int has no effect. Our spells have partial resists, if I understand correctly, so they behave like spells. We do get a significant amount of int from kings x arcane int - it seems silly to have neither agility nor intellect affecting the crit rate there. Not a big deal, it just feels .. off.
Originally Posted by leaflock
At a 25% chance for the SS glyph to proc, you could easily see rotations without a proc all the time, so you'd still have to refresh diseases.
At 4 SS per rotation, 25% chance yields a 32% chance of no proc.
Given the recent round of changes/nerfs, is the situation still the same regarding specs? Meaning blood is good as a replacement for an enhancement shaman, unholy is good to have one for other DKs, and frost is the best personal PvE dps given an unholy DK is present?
I'm curious to know as well. I'm coming back to WOW from a long hiatus and I'm working my way through this thread and as everyone knows there has been a large amount of changes over the last weeks and months so I'm trying to get a good feel on how the specs work out as they stand right now.
From my understanding each tree can efficiently tank and dps relatively the same. Frost and Unholy seem to be the two better tanking trees. The Bone Shield vs. Avoidance stacking was an interesting discussion. As for DPS it seems Unholy was (could still be?) the best tree, however blood is up there as well, and perhaps better with DW? As you can see I might be a little confused with all the progressive changes to the class. I'm trying to sort out what is what concerning Death Knights over all.
Correct me if I'm wrong please, but outside a small percentage in DPS difference as it stands right now, the only choice comes down to play style and preference. I don't have access to beta so I can't test these things on my own so I'm relying on you guys here for some insight and any response is appreciated.
Firstly, sorry if this is a little unclear, due to a house move I've been keeping up with these forums on my iPhone and it's a lot of hassle linking, checking (and writing) posts.
Somewhere in the last week of posts I spotted someone make a frost rotation that generated the 'max' amount of RP with minimum RP drain and one hopes, reasonable dps output - this was with the objective of keeping up gargoyle Indefinately - which isnt possible due to a max 1-min timer on gargoyle.
This got me thinking however, as to whether it was possible to implement this rotation, along with: Major Glyph of Deathstrike. With a high RP generating rotation as frost (in particular RPM) along with the DS glyph could a viable rotation be made, subbing into unholy?
If this falls on it's ass because I can't link posts or double check stuff, be gentle. I will try have a look at the weekend although not looking forward to the 2 gigs or so worth of patching I'll have to do for my beta and live versions!
If we could start with a rotation to generate near max RP, then DS instead of oblit, followed by a gargoyle to burn the RP I think we may have something.. Hope this is juicy enough to get you mathletes biting!
I'm glad some people who know what they're doing are working this, because I'm discovering how little I know about making spreadsheets. I can do the math, but I don't think my sheet is going to be customizable enough to be useful to anyone but me.
There are so many talents and they affect so many different skills, it gets really tedious to implement them all. It's totally boring and I'm glad when they are all in my sim .
At least I've found a way to make rotations.
elseif class.diseases==2 and ((class.runes.f>0 and class.runes.u>0) or class.runes.d>=2) then
obliterate()
It looks like this. You have to really think about the desired rotation, but I guess it's far easier than making an abstraction in Excel.
At 4 SS per rotation, 25% chance yields a 32% chance of no proc.
Yes, but then the larger issue is that you get 1 extra SS next 20 sec rotation, but your diseases are due to expire early. You have a 32% chance of no proc, but even if you get a proc, you have a 24% chance (assuming 5 SS) that your diseases won't be refreshed again before they expire.
I'm pursuing an English degree, so forgive my potentially faulty math logic, but it seems like that means over half of your 20 second rotations will see no actual benefit from the glyph. In some cases, you'll actually lose disease time or have to refresh them with IT-PS early.
There are so many talents and they affect so many different skills, it gets really tedious to implement them all. It's totally boring and I'm glad when they are all in my sim .
Having worked on the Rawr module for Retribution (and I still do) I can say the hardest part about the DK Rawr module, and the reason it's taking so long, is because I have to model THREE full trees of talents and skills instead of just over one. It also makes debugging logic errors that much harder, because an error in one place could throw off the dps of five abilities.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
10/21/08, 10:24 AM
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