What exactly makes you guys think Hysteria and/or blood DPS isn't balanced towards the DK chaincasting it on himself/herself? Sure, you can cast it on others, but in all honesty I'll most likely be putting it on myself.
And what is this about "if DKs will be putting out very competitive numbers"? I sincerely hope they will, because otherwise in my eyes Blizzard has failed (and I'm pretty sure that's the case for Blizzard as well).
If you really min/max (the ultimate goal of theorycrafting) then your raid contribution is higher if you cast hysteria on the highest dps physical damage dealer. The same logic would cause an unholy DK to get unholy aura in a raid... offers a fairly small personal dps boost on fights with a lot of movement, but whe it affects all the melee it can easily provide over 1000 raid DPS on some boss fights. So when you ask "what's the point if you're doing sub-par dps"... well if I had the option to do 200 personal dps but increase the dps of every melee in the raid by 800, you can be damn sure I would...in a heartbeat. Don't be so drawn to meters; in a raid, you work as a team. This is why enhancement shaman were so desired in early BC... their DPS was sub-par at best, but they buffed all the melee so significantly (usually 3-500 dps EACH) that it didn't matter. There's no "nice" way to say it, but blood is the "raid buff bitch spec". If you want to maximize personal DPS, then dual wield with a tri-spec or go 2H unholy. If you want to contribute DPS to your raid and there is no enhancement shaman present, then go blood.
Just keep in mind as well that blizzard has lumped us with the "hybrid" dpsers. We can expect to be below hunters, rogues, mages, and warlocks when all is said and done... in line with enhancment shaman, ret pallies, surv hunters, shadow priests, etc.
Originally Posted by Spiry
Giving hysteria to Hunters, BM hunters especially, is most likely not the best use of it.
As BM, the pets do ~50% of the damage of the hunter due to them scaling with raid buffs insanely well. Thus hysteria is only giving 30% extra damage to 50% of the damage (by my amazing mathematiclol skills, I make that 15%?). It would be much better use on say your top rogue or warrior.
This is a very good point. You want to put hysteria on the SINGLE TARGET THAT DOES THE MOST PHYSICAL DPS. This is also likely to NOT be rogues, given the amount of poison damage they do. It may very well be your arms or fury warrior that is most deserving of this.
Last edited by Zurm : 10/23/08 at 9:46 AM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Sorry to come in at a slight tangent, but I'm wondering whether it will possible to play a DPS DK effectively in a high level raid environment with significant (500ms plus) latency. I gather there's the leeway built into rune refreshes now, but would the latency put too much pressure on your GCDs?
I've only played caster classes, or the old ret paladin that wasn't very GCD bound, so I'm not certain how much of an impact this would have.
Sorry to come in at a slight tangent, but I'm wondering whether it will possible to play a DPS DK effectively in a high level raid environment with significant (500ms plus) latency. I gather there's the leeway built into rune refreshes now, but would the latency put too much pressure on your GCDs?
I've only played caster classes, or the old ret paladin that wasn't very GCD bound, so I'm not certain how much of an impact this would have.
I would say more than any other class, low latency and high reaction time is required for a DK. The cycles seem very tight, and being a second off at the end of a cycle could result in a 200+ dps difference in the end. Everything is inter-dependant, so your disease, rune, and RP interaction has to be near-flawless.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Zurm, wouldn't an Unholy/Frost be the better "raid bitch spec"? I figure Ebon Plague gives is a hefty bonus to caster damage which makes up half of the high dps classes, and then Imp. Icy Talons gives everyone a good haste bonus. While Blood does provide Abom's Might and Hysteria those seem to largely only help the physical melee dps and Hysteria for a relatively short time. It seems like you could probably go 31/40 in any two specs and provide a pretty solid array of raid bonuses.
Thinking outside the box here, but Hysteria would be a significant boost to Warrior and Feral threat if used on a tank in a threat-sensitive fight. Not something that's apparently a problem right now in Northrend but I imagine threat-sensitive fights will become an issue later on.
Not it's best use, and rogues and hunters should suffice here, but a use nonetheless. The 1% dmg a second for 30 seconds is insignificant from a healing perspective.
Zurm, wouldn't an Unholy/Frost be the better "raid bitch spec"? I figure Ebon Plague gives is a hefty bonus to caster damage which makes up half of the high dps classes, and then Imp. Icy Talons gives everyone a good haste bonus. While Blood does provide Abom's Might and Hysteria those seem to largely only help the physical melee dps and Hysteria for a relatively short time. It seems like you could probably go 31/40 in any two specs and provide a pretty solid array of raid bonuses.
Only enhancement shamans and DK can provide 20% haste and 10% ap. Moonkin AND warlocks *can* provide the equivalent of ebon plague.
Originally Posted by Daedalix
Not it's best use, and rogues and hunters should suffice here, but a use nonetheless. The 1% dmg a second for 30 seconds is insignificant from a healing perspective.
As stated above, rogues/hunters are NOT the best targets of hysteria for dps. I'd say DPS warriors and feral druids are... anyone else doesn't do enough pure physical damage from a single target to really warrant it (off the top of my head).
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
You assumed 30% reduction via armor. Different classes are assuming different values for this; the Paladin thread, for example, is assuming 40% reduction on physical damage. Let's just go with your assumed 30%.
Two Blood Strikes: 1.05*AWD + 1002.75
So, Scourge Strike - Two Blood Strikes: .0687*AWD - 114.7819
Therefore, with ~1670 average weapon damage, the two break even.
1670 is a fairly large number for average weapon damage. However, 30% reduction by armor is certainly not the accepted normal value (there isn't a normal excepted value at this point). Also, Scourge Strike takes one fewer global cooldown.
That's what I mentioned a few pages ago. Everyone theorycrafts tight, long and complex rotations that almost allow no mistake. In reality runes will miss, especially as a tank. I use a disease based priority system. Refresh diseases first, then produce death runes, spend some power or use the powerful rune attacks. This is much more flexible, not every fight is Patchwerk.
The rune system is also what's going to make DKs not so popular in the long run. If you don't have a plan for your runes you'll suck. It's not like rage or energy, where you can and have to spam the same abilities right away (Ok, good rogues have to watch some stuff, too).
It happens even without misses, though. I was mentioning to Zurm yesterday the exact same thing Embar is talking about. In Blood Presence, sometimes even using your Sudden Doom procs leaves you with Blood Runes popping up before you've used your Death runes. The HSx4 section can suddenly become HSx6 or even 8 (tossing in an OB as long as you can immediately use PS-IT following). That's why I still take Epidemic, even without Annihilation-- you have more flexibility in your cycles.
The "long and complex" rotations are just the most ideal method of executing the priorities you're talking about.
1) Keep up diseases.
2) Use highest damage ability (HS), buffed by diseases, as much as possible. (Creating Death runes is part of this).
3) Spend all available Runic Power. I don't like to call it a dump, because you're not getting rid of excess at your convenience. You get RP at a constant and predictable rate, and converting it all to damage is a significant part of our dps.
But yeah, you're totally right. The key to DKs will be understanding priorities and what abilities to use, because following a cookie-cutter rotation can't possibly cover everything. I usually think of the runes in pairs that need to be used, and choose abilities accordingly if the rotation goes off.
Is anyone else noticing Death Runes converting back to their base runes before you can use them? This is happening at level 67 while dropping in and out of combat. I'm wondering if there is a shorter amount of time that they stay Death Runes when you are OOC.
I also have a question about Two-Handed Weapon Specialization:
Does this increase the total damage of our strikes by 4% or only the weapon damage part? Has anyone tested this?
When I tested on Plague Strike many pages back, it appeared to modify only the weapon damage portion
(though some of the results suggested bugs at the time in the modifiers-- link). One visible piece of evidence to back this up is on the character sheet-- modifiers like Blood Presence, Bloody Vengeance, etc, are part of the green number that multiplies overall damage. The bonus from 2h Weapon spec is already figured into the white dps that is displayed.
Is anyone else noticing Death Runes converting back to their base runes before you can use them? This is happening at level 67 while dropping in and out of combat. I'm wondering if there is a shorter amount of time that they stay Death Runes when you are OOC.
GC mentioned a few weeks ago that Death Runes are meant to remain for about 10-15 seconds when out of combat.
Is anyone else noticing Death Runes converting back to their base runes before you can use them? This is happening at level 67 while dropping in and out of combat. I'm wondering if there is a shorter amount of time that they stay Death Runes when you are OOC.
This has been discussed a few times before in this thread, but yeah, death runes sometimes become unstable when you drop combat. Several times I've generated 2 death runes off Blood of the North, death rune #1 comes off cooldown normally, then death rune #2 comes off cooldown and one or both death runes reverts to a blood rune. The issue doesn't seem to be a shorter cooldown or anything, because it's not consistent. I'll frequently have one death rune revert as soon as it comes off cooldown and the other stay around indefinitely. Seems like a bug to me.
I've noticed this a lot more with Blood of the North and Death Rune Mastery than with Reaping. I can't remember my death runes acting up as unholy for the past several builds.
"What the poet laments holds for the mathematician. That he writes his works with the blood of his heart."
– Ludwig Boltzmann
I completely agree on Hysteria-- raid dps is the ultimate goal, not personal. That's why raids bring Arms warriors in BC, for instance. If using Hysteria on someone else gets more damage from the ability, then that's the best possible use of it.
That's also why I'm not particularly concerned with the Patchwerk parses from before-- situationally DKs are capable of top dps, but middle-of-the-pack dps on other fights hardly makes us a liability. Everybody's gonna need a buff bitch.
You'd also want to coordinate Hysteria with certain classes' cooldowns, which makes me wonder-- how does Hysteria interact with Dancing Rune Weapon? Given the relative power of that cooldown in physical dps compared to most other classes' cooldowns (Berserk/Adrenaline rush, for instance, don't come close, nor does Blade Flurry), I can see it being beneficial for Blood DKs to use it on themselves at some level of gear. An Orc DK could potentially have Hysteria, Blood Fury, and a trinket to stack with DRW, which would be a pretty massive burst.
Again last night I witnessed the ease that a warrior can nearly double the single-target TPS of a well-geared Frost DK.
As gear scales and gets better for tanking, warrior shield slams get huge. Conversely, a DK's attacks get weaker (trading crit and AP found on DPS/PvP gear for avoidance and defense, shield block value is obviously a wasted stat). For example, My non-crit IT's land for about 800. BS and PS for 1100, and OB for 1700. If those don't crit (let alone miss) I'll let you guess what's possible with zealous DPS or an offtank with a full rage bar. Of course we do gain expertise on higher ilevel items, and we -maintain- or slightly increase AP through bladed armor, but these increases are negligible. Not to mention, maxing bladed armor costs you 9% crit on your two most frequently used RP generators which I've not seen proven as a clear trade off.
AE threat seems quite nice still, Pest/HB and DnD do very well.
It just seems interesting that warriors in limitless-rage situations (Patch) simply embarrass a DK's TPS. If you watch any encounter where the DK is tanking, and the prot warrior is DPSing in prot gear, the warrior can stay at about 70-85% of the DK's threat. If the warrior's tanking and has all the rage he can use, the DK may be able to stay at 50%.
As implemented gear gets better and better and DPS increases, I don't see how Frost tanks are going to be able to keep up in TPS, where we're just barely hanging on now (failing, in fact, when up against a warrior with rage)
Any other experienced Frost tanks have any related feedback? Any speculation on this issue from the esteemed community?
I also am curious about the GCD starvation that is being mentioned often. as a tank, I have ample GCDs available. after IT - PS- BS - BS - OB - OB - OB - OB I have about 5s with nothing to hit, since all of those attacks have RS macroed to them and I have little if any RP. There's also a GCD available between the each of the last 3 OB's listed.
Its a lame answer I know but all specs work pretty well for leveling. Kept respecing up to 80 and everything was pretty good. Best ones though are probably blood with improved runetap/bloodworms or vendetta, and unholy with ghoul. Also if you go unholy the on a pale horse talent is nice for the improved mount speed.
Its a lame answer I know but all specs work pretty well for leveling. Kept respecing up to 80 and everything was pretty good. Best ones though are probably blood with improved runetap/bloodworms or vendetta, and unholy with ghoul. Also if you go unholy the on a pale horse talent is nice for the improved mount speed.
I went the Blood Worm route and was happy with it, that's why I noted it in my preferences. I never really lost that much HP and I could pull ungodly amounts of mobs like my prot pally and never really die. It was fun but with all the changes I was wondering which spec was betterer.
Again last night I witnessed the ease that a warrior can nearly double the single-target TPS of a well-geared Frost DK.
As gear scales and gets better for tanking, warrior shield slams get huge. Conversely, a DK's attacks get weaker (trading crit and AP found on DPS/PvP gear for avoidance and defense, shield block value is obviously a wasted stat). For example, My non-crit IT's land for about 800. BS and PS for 1100, and OB for 1700. If those don't crit (let alone miss) I'll let you guess what's possible with zealous DPS or an offtank with a full rage bar. Of course we do gain expertise on higher ilevel items, and we -maintain- or slightly increase AP through bladed armor, but these increases are negligible. Not to mention, maxing bladed armor costs you 9% crit on your two most frequently used RP generators which I've not seen proven as a clear trade off.
AE threat seems quite nice still, Pest/HB and DnD do very well.
It just seems interesting that warriors in limitless-rage situations (Patch) simply embarrass a DK's TPS. If you watch any encounter where the DK is tanking, and the prot warrior is DPSing in prot gear, the warrior can stay at about 70-85% of the DK's threat. If the warrior's tanking and has all the rage he can use, the DK may be able to stay at 50%.
As implemented gear gets better and better and DPS increases, I don't see how Frost tanks are going to be able to keep up in TPS, where we're just barely hanging on now (failing, in fact, when up against a warrior with rage)
Any other experienced Frost tanks have any related feedback? Any speculation on this issue from the esteemed community?
I also am curious about the GCD starvation that is being mentioned often. as a tank, I have ample GCDs available. after IT - PS- BS - BS - OB - OB - OB - OB I have about 5s with nothing to hit, since all of those attacks have RS macroed to them and I have little if any RP. There's also a GCD available between the each of the last 3 OB's listed.
1. TPS is important but there is a point where it has no meaning anymore. If a prot warrior is putting out a national debt worth of threat a second it really doesn't matter because no one else playing at a theoretic maximum will ever touch that. Sure it's a hyperbole but the point being that if a geared/skilled DK tank can keep up threat against an equally skilled/geared raid then it does matter if he beats it by an inch or a mile.
That said, if it really doesn't keep up (something that will take some time to really prove in a playing environment) the easiest way to fix it would be to adjust the threat modifier on frost presence.
2. The rotation listed over the course disease interval would generate 125 rp, that's 4 Rune strikes and 1 Frost strike. The reason you have so many extra cooldowns is the obliterate spam in your second rotation resulting in the 5 seconds of wait time afterward, not a whole lot you can do about it except try and stretch it out, maybe using 2 IT's to try and catch a Rime proc.
3. Most of the reasoning for using Bladed Armor over Subversion for frost tanking is that in frost presence you get a 65% extra benefit from it. The more armor you get as tanking turns into an even greater benefit across all abilities. While obliterate crits are nice, Bladed Armor provides a more consistent gain. If you're relying on crits for threat you are engaging in a dangerous dance with the RNG.
The general consensus on these boards is unholy... faster run speed and mounted speed is priceless when trying to level faster. Also unholy has awesome AOE and a permanent pet which helps a lot.
Originally Posted by Arkasi
3. Most of the reasoning for using Bladed Armor of Subversion for frost tanking is that in frost presence you get a 65% extra benefit from it. The more armor you get as tanking turns into an even greater benefit across all abilities. While obliterate crits are nice, Bladed Armor provides a more consistent gain. If you're relying on crits for threat you are engaging in a dangerous dance with the RNG.
Blade armor is fantastic for a dps spec as well, for similar reasons. As your item level increases, so does the armor on each piece.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
untalented
1 rune = 10 runic power
2 rune = 15 runic power
3 rune = 20 runic power
Well looks like you were right, there's that 40rp. That does make Frost Strike a bit less attractive in a tanking build and makes Butchery a bit more attractive.
10/23/08, 9:39 AM
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