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Old 09/23/08, 11:01 AM   #1996
Lanlaorn
Piston Honda
 
Human Death Knight
 
Khadgar
I haven't actaully bothered to do the math but at first glance threat from Death Strike wouldn't be anything special since heals only generate 50% aggro as corresponding damage. Something like Obliterate or SS should be the same in aggro, although I guess it is nice that you're not penalized TPS wise if you decide to need to use DS to stay alive.

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Old 09/23/08, 11:52 AM   #1997
Leaflock
Don Flamenco
 
Leaflock's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by klineshrike View Post
This was what I was talking about. Blues tests all tested things that affect overall damage with one talent that does not. You need two talents that do not (he would have needed a test with morbidity AND black ice) to see additives. In this case, Two handed spec is a specific and non overall damage increasing talent. So is outbreak. These are additive and thus indicate why your actual is lower. Because you are making them multiplicitive in your expected.

Tundra and RoR are not the same as Blood Gorged because they have specifications. The affect spells and abilities. Not final damage. They may still act like an overall damage buff I dont know, its and odd talent to begin with.

If you want a true test, run IT with Imp IT, Black Ice, and Glacier Rot. IT has a very small variance and these three talents should be additive. Do so WITHOUT blood presence, bloody vengence, blood gorged, tundra ect. See what you get then.
I wasn't testing whether or not the modifiers were additive. None of them (at least for Plague Strike) logically should be, anyway. My test was simply to see if the strike worked the way an instant melee attack should-- tzenes was asking if blood presence modified both weapon damage and overall damage, and my assertion was that it did not. My hypothesis was that "weapon damage" in the tooltip means simply normalized weapon damage, and additionally my guess was that 2h weapon spec increased that damage value specifically, before other modifiers. Given the discrepancy in values with 2h weapon spec in Frost Presence, I can't be sure that's the case yet.

However, the point was that everything else worked as expected, within a tiny margin of error. Weapon damage is normalized, and the modifiers that affect it are multiplied after the ability's damage is calculated. This all might seem obvious, but it's worth getting it right for the spreadsheet and future calculations-- it's nice to know that we understand how it works. Blood Presence doesn't apply twice, nor should it, so that should answer tzenes' question.

Also, it wasn't just that the numbers with 2h spec without blood presence were lower than expected, they were exactly the same as without 2h spec, all other things equal. If it were additive with anything, as you're suggesting, we'd at least see a somewhat different number. Besides that, it performs as expected multiplicatively when Blood Presence is up. Something's fishy there, but I don't think that means any of those bonuses are adding.

Here's my current thought about additive versus multiplicative modifiers. Any talent or buff modifying a different "category" of damage should be multiplicative. 2h spec modifies weapon damage. Then, Outbreak modifies Plague Strike damage. Blood Presence, Blood Gorged, and Bloody Vengeance modify total physical or overall damage, and even though some of those cover similar "categories", we've seen that those are all multiplicative too. Really, there's nothing yet to suggest that any of these are additive.

My point with this test was to see how the melee strikes worked. Scourge Strike deals shadow damage, but zurm's blizz quote confirms it's a melee instant attack, and is subject to all the appropriate rules. I think we'll find it follows a similar formula, once it's working correctly again. I haven't touched spells yet-- Icy Touch is going to be different from a melee attack in that regard, though I'd guess the multipliers from talents, etc, would work similarly, and blues' numbers with death coil back that up.

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Old 09/23/08, 12:05 PM   #1998
Leaflock
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Lanlaorn View Post
I haven't actaully bothered to do the math but at first glance threat from Death Strike wouldn't be anything special since heals only generate 50% aggro as corresponding damage. Something like Obliterate or SS should be the same in aggro, although I guess it is nice that you're not penalized TPS wise if you decide to need to use DS to stay alive.
Yeah. On top of that, remember that threat from healing only derives from actual healing done. If you're at full health, you'll get no healing threat from Death Strike. I'd bet most of the time you're better off just doing the most damage possible for threat.

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Old 09/23/08, 12:19 PM   #1999
Bluefish
Piston Honda
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Lethon
More talent tests. Since we 'know' Blood Presence is a 15% multiplier, I'll just test in Unholy.

148 - Base DC.
496 - DC untalented in Unholy Presence with 2164 AP.

Morbidity
520 - 1/3 Morbidity
543 - 2/3 Morbidity
567 - 3/3 Morbidity
Conclusion: Something odd is going on here. We can rule out Morbidity affecting only the base damage of DC (way too low) and also Morbidity only affecting the AP multiplier (still too low). My best guess is Morbidity is using the wrong multiplier. A 1.048 multiplier (instead of 1.05) fits all observed numbers.

Spec'd into Toughness. No Bladed Armor, no problems.
Morbidity + Black Ice
584 - 1/5 BI, 3/3 Morbidity (567 * 1.03 = 584.01)
602 - 2/5 BI, 3/3 Morbidity
618 - 3/5 BI, 3/3 Morbidity
635 - 4/5 BI, 3/3 Morbidity
652 - 5/5 BI, 3/3 Morbidity (567 * 1.15 = 652.05)
Conclusion: Morbidity and Black Ice stack multiplicatively.

Spec'd into... a bunch of stuff. Re-checked, DC still hits for 652, so we're good.
Morbidity + Black Ice + Tundra Stalker
652 - 1/5 TS (!!)
652 - 2/5 TS
652 - 3/5 TS
652 - 4/5 TS
652 - 5/5 TS
Conclusion: Tundra Stalker does not work for Death Coil. (bug, reported) I did have Frost Fever up for this test.

Last edited by Bluefish : 09/23/08 at 1:34 PM.

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Old 09/23/08, 12:56 PM   #2000
Darkrenown
Don Flamenco
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Stormrage (EU)
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
For those who didn't see this, it was posted yesterday (link). Here's some highlights:
The blue also mentions that the training dummies have some messed up mechanics, so they may not be the best source of tests after all. In addition, I remember reading that our ghouls are about to be nerfed (if I find the link, I'll add it here). If this is the case, then at least for leveling a SS buff is going to be required.
Not a terribly helpful post from GC there, the problem is SS is hitting for far less than the last patch, not that it doesn't hit/crit etc, the damage is just less.

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Old 09/23/08, 12:57 PM   #2001
Xentik
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by Lanlaorn View Post
I haven't actaully bothered to do the math but at first glance threat from Death Strike wouldn't be anything special since heals only generate 50% aggro as corresponding damage. Something like Obliterate or SS should be the same in aggro, although I guess it is nice that you're not penalized TPS wise if you decide to need to use DS to stay alive.
I worked through the math and Death Strike theoretically always outpeforms Scourge Strike for TPS and outperforms Obliterate at 2 diseases with over 500 Normalized weapon damage. The equations used are :

W = Normalized Weapon Damage
D = # of Diseases

Death Strike threat = (W * 0.6 + 178.2) * (1 + D/2)
Obliterate Threat = (W + 217) + (108.5 * D)
Scourge Strike Threat = (W * 0.65 + 196.95) + (98.47 * D)

This is using the max ranks of each of the abilities with numbers pulled from MMO Champion. Note that this is without factoring armor reduction which would favor Scourge Strike and talents which might favor each of the three differently based on spec.

Since Death Strike threat essentially scales with W*D*Constant it will eventually outperform anything that scales as (W*Constant + D*Constant) given large enough values of W.

Originally Posted by Leaflock View Post
Yeah. On top of that, remember that threat from healing only derives from actual healing done. If you're at full health, you'll get no healing threat from Death Strike. I'd bet most of the time you're better off just doing the most damage possible for threat.
This seems to be the major limiting factor, but at high normalized weapon damages with 4x diseases the threat per use is around 50% more than with Obliterate. In a situation where even half of your healing from DS produces threat it still may outperform Obliterate. I imagine this will be more useful for threat in 5-mans and perhaps in 10-mans that you overgear and can sacrifice a healer for an extra DPS than in 25 mans.

Below are the graphs showing the behaviour with respect to weapon damage and diseases.

Death Strike Threat per Hit

[Edit: Typo fix and added link to charts]

Last edited by Xentik : 09/23/08 at 2:54 PM.

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Old 09/23/08, 1:23 PM   #2002
Leaflock
Don Flamenco
 
Leaflock's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Darkrenown View Post
Not a terribly helpful post from GC there, the problem is SS is hitting for far less than the last patch, not that it doesn't hit/crit etc, the damage is just less.
Yeah, he was a bit misled on that since regardless of miss/crits, the hit damage was off. However, the rest of that discussion explains a bit more:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
We lowered the percent weapon damage on Scourge Strike because it was the only ability that ended up scaling too well. Several other abilities didn't scale well enough and we made adjustments accordingly. But even after those changes, at some gear level Scourge Strike would have outpaced other DK abilities, forcing everyone to go Unholy. Bypassing armor is just a huge benefit.

...

You have a bugged version of Scourge Strike, so a lot of the feedback on it's power isn't going to be very useful unless you can remember what it was like in the previous build. In that build, there should be very few situations in which Obliterate does more damage for an Unholy DK (such as a mob that is immune to Shadow damage).
So, it is supposed to do less damage, but more than Oblit for Unholy DKs. Additionally, it's bugged. There's an edited post earlier that says "Scourge Strike is fixed", but I haven't had time to check what it looks like right now.

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Old 09/23/08, 1:27 PM   #2003
 Zurm
The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arthas
I saw that post too. It IS fixed... but the build they fixed it in hasn't gone live yet. We can expect it in the next major beta build I believe.

Back, semi-casual, and proud of it.

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Old 09/23/08, 2:08 PM   #2004
zirky
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Kargath
I'm curious how Command is going to function for the DK. I'm making the assumption that it will obviously affect the ghoul, but does the ghoul have to be spec'd into "pet" talents for the bonus to apply? And would it apply to the gargoyle or blood worms?

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Old 09/23/08, 2:10 PM   #2005
 Zurm
The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arthas
From my understanding of command, it applies to any true pet (you need a petbar for it) of a hunter, warlock, or death knight. It's definitely worth testing, however, to be sure.

Back, semi-casual, and proud of it.

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Old 09/23/08, 2:25 PM   #2006
Skulli
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Priest
 
Talnivarr (EU)
incomming pvp changes:
We're starting to get a lot of PvP data in, and several classes are having trouble beating rogues, Frost mages, Ret paladins and death knights.

Death knights have a lot of options at the moment, which is cool, but makes it really hard for another player to catch a break and burn a death knight down. So we're going to try some changes. I won't sugar-coat it -- these are nerfs.

-- The ghoul is doing too much damage. He is receiving 100% of death knight strength, which is much higher than most pets.
-- Chains of Ice is going back to be being dispellable. It is probably the best snare in the game at the moment, for a class that already has Death Grip.
-- The same is true of both Strangulate and Mind Freeze. Strangulate's cooldown is going to go up. Mind Freeze remains the quick interrupt.
-- We're increasing the cooldown on Anti-Magic Shell. We don't think this will hurt DKs in PvE much, and it still leaves you with Icebound Fortitude to use often.

As always, if we overdid it, if DKs are now too weak in PvP, we'll adjust. But we were at the point where we weren't getting a lot of good numbers because some fights were just over too quickly.
WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> PvP changes

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Old 09/23/08, 2:43 PM   #2007
tzenes
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Stormscale
As always the latest editions of the spreadsheet:
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting
and in xls
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting


Updates:
  • I've included all of the latest work on multipliers
  • I've finally added 2handed spec into the damage calculations (now that we have an accurate idea of what it does)
  • I've changed Scourge Strike, Frost Strike and Heart Strike to use Oblit, DC and Blood (respectively) if you are not spec'd into them
  • I put in accurate numbers for Humans at level 80
  • I put in all the starting DK gear for Murmur
  • The Paper Doll should accurately reflect a starting human dk on murmur (the cloak enchant doesn't work right now so I've just not placed it on her, and the sigal is an approximation)
  • I've added spaghetti logic to deal with the socket bonuses for now, I'll probably replace it later
  • The Item buffs are still Level 70 gear and will be updated soon.

If anyone has been adding items I'd appreciate if they uploaded their version.
Additionally, let me know of any bugs you find, I keep hunting for them but I don't always find them.
Also, do we have a consensus on spec/rotations?

As always the xls version is unsupported.

Last edited by tzenes : 09/23/08 at 2:44 PM. Reason: xls version

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Old 09/23/08, 2:45 PM   #2008
 Zurm
The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology
 
Zurm's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arthas
While these changes are needed, I agree with one of the responses:

All of these are defensive abilities, and a big concern that we have is that while it seems like we live forever, we don't really have any burst to pressure with. If you make it harder for us to stay alive, and nerf ghoul damage, I forsee us having problems actually killing someone.

Back, semi-casual, and proud of it.

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Old 09/23/08, 6:14 PM   #2009
Sardaukar
Piston Honda
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Tichondrius
We're starting to get a lot of PvP data in, and several classes are having trouble beating rogues, Frost mages, Ret paladins and death knights.

Death knights have a lot of options at the moment, which is cool, but makes it really hard for another player to catch a break and burn a death knight down. So we're going to try some changes. I won't sugar-coat it -- these are nerfs.

-- The ghoul is doing too much damage. He is receiving 100% of death knight strength, which is much higher than most pets.
-- Chains of Ice is going back to be being dispellable. It is probably the best snare in the game at the moment, for a class that already has Death Grip.
-- The same is true of both Strangulate and Mind Freeze. Strangulate's cooldown is going to go up. Mind Freeze remains the quick interrupt.
-- We're increasing the cooldown on Anti-Magic Shell. We don't think this will hurt DKs in PvE much, and it still leaves you with Icebound Fortitude to use often.

As always, if we overdid it, if DKs are now too weak in PvP, we'll adjust. But we were at the point where we weren't getting a lot of good numbers because some fights were just over too quickly.
Ghoul Nerf: I think everyone saw that coming. No real problems there, as long as they realize that the only reason that DK's need a damage buff to compensate.

Chains of Ice: Ok change but then it should probably cost 10-20 RP instead of a F rune. It was only justifiably worth a precious F rune when it couldn't be dispelled - now that its power has gone down a lot, so should its cost.

Strangulate/Mind Freeze: Strangulate CD going up is ok I guess. Probably a little too good.

AMS: Probably needed as well, although the wording concerns me. "Icebound Fortitude to use often" means that it will have a shorter CD than AMS? Confusing. I guess this makes the 5 extra seconds of AMS for 15 second longer CD glyph potentially better. With a base duration of 5 seconds and a 15 second CD, the gylph was kinda meh but the longer the new CD of AMS the better the glyph is (since you are doubling the duration but only adding a flat 15 seconds to CD). Any longer than 30-40 seconds and it becomes a once_a_fight spell anyway so might as well glyph it for 5 extra seconds.

I have no idea what that last sentence means. DK fights tend to be a drawn out affair with our lowish damage going up against your damage (made likewise lowish by all our abilities).

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Old 09/23/08, 9:53 PM   #2010
Bluefish
Piston Honda
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Lethon
Tundra Stalker
Icy Touches
354 to 359, no talents
360 to 367 1/5
367 to 374 2/5
373 to 381 3/5
382 to 388 4/5
388 to 395 5/5
Conclusion: Tundra Stalker works for Icy Touch.

Imp Icy Touch
290 - 297 no talents
320 - 327 1/3
349 - 356 2/3
378 - 385 3/3
Conclusion: Imp Icy Touch's damage component works.

Glacier Rot
Icy Touch
378 - 385 with Imp Icy
397 - 405 1/2
416 - 425 2/2

Howling Blast
434 - 444 base (no diseases on target)
461 - 470 1/2 (blood plague on target)
480 - 487 2/2 (blood plague on target)

Frost Strike
408 - 409 base (no diseases on target)
428 - 429 1/2 (blood plague on target)
449 - 450 2/2 (blood plague on target)
Conclusion: Glacier Rot works as advertised.

Last edited by Bluefish : 09/23/08 at 10:50 PM.

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