WotLK Discussion - Talents and abilities. - Page 137

Flamingcloud · 10/29/08, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

I agree entirely, I think playstyle and preference are a very large factor. For now, I think I can agree that any spec is viable for leveling or raiding, but I will continue to push my opinion that unholy is better

There are always upgrades, but most involve instances. I kept most of my level 58 quest reward gear up until northrend, changing mostly weapons/rings/trinkets/necks. You could buy a cobrahide enchant if you really want, but I don't see a reason to. DKs are entirely imbalanced in outlands, they tear through things like no other class could in BC. I don't see a point to twink out your DK as it's entirely uneccesary. I understand if you have gold to burn you might be tempted, but I'd say just buy a Blade of Misfortune and some leveling pots/flasks. In the end, it will be money better spent.

I completely agree that any dk spec will out level pretty much 6-7 other complete classes, it wouldn't even really surprise me if all dk specs out leveled every class, even druids, warlocks, and paladins. We are debating very small differences in leveling speeds.

I believe I upgraded all of my dk starting area blues with quest greens, some even before leaving hellfire but there is a lot of janky prot/ret plate with int on it, and a lot of gear with haste, and way too much hit on the warrior gear (fury leveling gear I suppose).

I completely agree that blade of misfortune is a must if you aren't an orc, and things like strength/mongoose elixirs as well as dps food and sharpening stones are a very good choice.

Originally Posted by Illundai

Although, I'm really not sure if I'd want to take Unholy Blight at all (I didn't take it in my other specs, but now I picked it up) it just doesn't seem very worth it for levelling, so I might skip that in favour for other stuff.

I would rate UB as EXTREMELY situational for leveling, more so even than hungering cold, just elites and aoe packs really. I think it is worth the point when you get there but I am hardly giddy about getting it.

Flamingcloud · 10/29/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by jokeyrhyme

Just to clarify, the reason crit is least valuable to Unholy (out of all the trees) is because so much of our damage is from DoTs (diseases)? Does anyone have a basic damage summary per ability? I was under the impression that most of the diseases were utility, with a few of our crittable abilities drawing extra power per disease.

I'm just asking because I find the Unholy tree so delicious that it's hard to find spare points for certain things. I usually put 17 points in Blood (for a DPS build) just to get Dark Conviction (5% crit). This is at the expense of Desecration in my current 17/0/54 Unholy DPS build. Do you think it's worth dropping Dark Conviction for Desecration?

I've gone and chosen Blood-Caked Blade instead of Necrosis because it's cheaper. Good move? Should I really try to get both? If so, which points would you recommend shifting?

Anti-Magic Zone looks like it might be fun... for the 30 seconds a day that I remember to use it. Seems so expensive for 6 points, does anyone have anything good to say about it? At this point I might be the only long-term Unholy DK in my guild, so I might end up having to take AMZ if it's especially useful for certain encounters.

How useful are talents like Death Rune Master, Blood of the North, and Reaping? I get that Death Runes are nice and convenient, but there doesn't seem to be much need for them in most of the "rotations" I've seen discussed here.

I'm planning on rolling a Gnome (screw racials, I wanna be cute!) and take up Blacksmithing and Mining. At the moment I'm farming up all the mats to get Blacksmithing up to 350. Do you think it might be worth getting Mining and BS up to speed before hitting Northrend? Before Outland? I'll be dropping Mining for Engineering once I get my other Mining toon into Northrend. I'd really like to start raiding with my guild as soon as possible, and am weary of the headstart they'll have. :P

Crit is the worst for unholy because scourge strike crits at 230% mainly, where as frost gets killing machine, and oblit/blood/frost strike at 245%, and blood gets heart/oblit at 245%.

Dark Conviction > Desecration in my opinion if you are just considering one versus the other with no other factors.

AMZ could be useful though I really doubt it will find a solid home.

I personally don't like the death rune talents for anything but raid dps.

I would pickup blacksmithing (for bop patterns) before heading to outlands and not touch it at all until 80. You will not be ready when heroics start if you spend 5+ hours getting mining to 300 before going to outlands. Additionally you will not be able to get ahead of the other dks until nagrand probably if you lose that much time.

Randyll · 10/29/08, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by jokeyrhyme

Just to clarify, the reason crit is least valuable to Unholy (out of all the trees) is because so much of our damage is from DoTs (diseases)? Does anyone have a basic damage summary per ability? I was under the impression that most of the diseases were utility, with a few of our crittable abilities drawing extra power per disease.

Crit is by no means a bad stat to any DK, least of all, Unholy. Unholy has a lot of damage coming from dots, most of the damage you do is still melee, although the percentage is slightly higher with other specs. Don't quote me on this, in terms of pure raw damage, strength and crit are the most important stats. Disregarding hit and expertise that is. Granted, there are slight variations in this, but there isn't any other stat that'll provide the same increase in your damage. As such, you shouldn't discard crit completely.

Cambriel · 10/29/08, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by Randyll

Crit is by no means a bad stat to any DK, least of all, Unholy. Unholy has a lot of damage coming from dots, most of the damage you do is still melee, although the percentage is slightly higher with other specs. You should remember that Unholy has talents that increase crit damage of strikes, too, making crit a rather valuable stat. In terms of pure raw damage, strength and crit are the most important stats. Granted, there are slight variations in this, but there isn't any other stat that'll provide the same increase in your damage. As such, you shouldn't discard crit completely.

Isn't Wandering Plague also based on melee crit? That effectively allows all of your disease DoTs a chance at critting. Combined with Pestilence and the AoE nature of Wandering Plague effects, and that's a fair bit of damage associated to crit rating.

Randyll · 10/29/08, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Cambriel

Isn't Wandering Plague also based on melee crit? That effectively allows all of your disease DoTs a chance at critting. Combined with Pestilence and the AoE nature of Wandering Plague effects, and that's a fair bit of damage associated to crit rating.

Agreed. There's a slight misconception associated with crit and unholy though. Stating "crit is the worst for unholy", while true in itself doesn't mean that crit is a bad stat. It's obvious that as a melee class "strength > crit > etc" holds true, even if there are variations between specs. Moreover, with the nature of all those talents relying on it, it's a non-issue, really.

Flamingcloud · 10/29/08, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Randyll

Crit is by no means a bad stat to any DK, least of all, Unholy. Unholy has a lot of damage coming from dots, most of the damage you do is still melee, although the percentage is slightly higher with other specs. Don't quote me on this, in terms of pure raw damage, strength and crit are the most important stats. Disregarding hit and expertise that is. Granted, there are slight variations in this, but there isn't any other stat that'll provide the same increase in your damage. As such, you shouldn't discard crit completely.

Ya I wasn't trying to indicate that crit was bad for dks or anything, just that it was slightly less for unholy as opposed to strength/hit specifically. It is still miles ahead of haste/arp, especially for leveling.

Originally Posted by Cambriel

Isn't Wandering Plague also based on melee crit? That effectively allows all of your disease DoTs a chance at critting. Combined with Pestilence and the AoE nature of Wandering Plague effects, and that's a fair bit of damage associated to crit rating.

Wandering plague has some kind of lame internal cooldown now as far as I know, I doubt you would notice a significant proc difference between 40% crit and 50%. It is still a significant boost to disease damage and aoe at that but it doesn't really scale 100% with your crit anymore, especially in aoe situations.

Cambriel · 10/29/08, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

Wandering plague has some kind of lame internal cooldown now as far as I know, I doubt you would notice a significant proc difference between 40% crit and 50%. It is still a significant boost to disease damage and aoe at that but it doesn't really scale 100% with your crit anymore, especially in aoe situations.

Wait what? I haven't read anything about an internal cooldown on it. Is it a cooldown on a per application basis, per player or what?

Flamingcloud · 10/29/08, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by Cambriel

Wait what? I haven't read anything about an internal cooldown on it. Is it a cooldown on a per application basis, per player or what?

I don't know exactly I wasn't really raiding unholy, but gone are the days of 10000 dps on spider wing packs from wandering plague. If someone with more knowledge on the current state of wandering plague could chime in, it would be appreciated.

Zurai · 10/29/08, 2:18 PM

WP has a 1 second (or less, hard to test at that point) internal cooldown. Just enough to prevent it from exploding multiple times on the same tick of a Pestilence-spread disease, and thus prevent the absurd DPS scaling it had in multi-mob situations. It's still a great talent and worth more than 1% per point (and it's unchanged in single-target situations barring glyph of scourge strike, which is a bad glyph anyway).

Flamingcloud · 10/29/08, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Zurai

WP has a 1 second (or less, hard to test at that point) internal cooldown. Just enough to prevent it from exploding multiple times on the same tick of a Pestilence-spread disease, and thus prevent the absurd DPS scaling it had in multi-mob situations. It's still a great talent and worth more than 1% per point (and it's unchanged in single-target situations barring glyph of scourge strike, which is a bad glyph anyway).

I see, thanks for clarifying. It is probably not enough to make unholy's crit scaling as good as blood, and definitely not frost's but obviously every little bit helps.

NeuroMedivh · 10/29/08, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by jokeyrhyme

I'm planning on rolling a Gnome (screw racials, I wanna be cute!) and take up Blacksmithing and Mining. At the moment I'm farming up all the mats to get Blacksmithing up to 350. Do you think it might be worth getting Mining and BS up to speed before hitting Northrend? Before Outland? I'll be dropping Mining for Engineering once I get my other Mining toon into Northrend. I'd really like to start raiding with my guild as soon as possible, and am weary of the headstart they'll have. :P

It is entirely possible to get Mining to 290 based solely on smelting ore. I tested this on beta, and it takes about 15-20 minutes. While you could easily just skip mining and power through Outlands, my plan is thus:

Get to 58, head to Stormwind. After I talk to the king, camp to my storage alt, mail all ore, bags, etc to my DK (including some gloves with +5 mining). Get back on DK, head to forge, smelt to 290. Head to Blasted Lands, spend a few minutes getting mining to 295, then head to Outlands (where, with the gloves, I can mine Fel Iron).

At 68, head to Northrend, and work Blacksmithing to 350 (I have all the mats required banked already). XP in outlands till 70, then get blacksmithing up to 375 using Cobalt and make myself a Lionheart Executioner. Based on wowhead research, there won't be a quest replacement for it till Zul'drak at least, and the mats for it should be cheap right before Lich King comes out.

What other supplies do you think would be worth getting? Besides the aforementioned BS/Mining mats, I have a Blade of Misfortune, Cobrahide leg armor, and some scrolls of enchant for the DK starting armor. I figure with enchants, this gear should last till Northrend and I can not worry about any upgrades except to weapon. Do you think some flasks/elixirs would be worth getting? They seem like overkill, since I wouldn't need them except for elite quests, which I would most likely be skipping anyway.

• Zurm · 10/29/08, 2:36 PM

That's not a bad plan, though honestly the lionheart is a very minor upgrade to a blue 2h axe you can get from quests by level 69.

NeuroMedivh · 10/29/08, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

That's not a bad plan, though honestly the lionheart is a very minor upgrade to a blue 2h axe you can get from quests by level 69.

I thought about that, and were I playing an Orc I'd get the Axe of Frozen Death, but after leveling a DK in beta to 80, I realized there just aren't any good swords for a long time, and I feel the +expertise from being a Human should make up for it. What I'll probably do is get both the Lionheart and the Axe, and try and keep both Axe and Sword skill maxed.

Illundai · 10/29/08, 2:56 PM

I have mats for 1-375 for when I hit 70, grabbing a Lionheart Executioner as well (I'm going to roll Human, so) it might cost me an hour or so whilst I skill it up (not to mention the trip to Tanaris and Winterspring might be a PITA) but I'm going to use BS anyway and I might as well get some use out of it. I'm getting the game at midnight and have my whole levelling route scheduled out, so I'm guessing I'll be 70 the day after release, or close to it. That means I'll have caught up with a lot of people, so slowing down a little is not a bad idea (Silvermoon is going to be laggy as hell on Northrend anyway...)

I'm still not sure on what to go for as secondary profession though, I was contemptlating Enchanting, Leatherworking or Jewelcrafting. Inscription seems a bit lame, although I guess it could be worth it too. Herbalism has crossed my mind too, but those consumables seem pretty situational.

Basicly, Leatherworking has the added benefit of very awesome DPS AND tanking enchants, whilst Enchanting has the ring enchants which again, benefit me for both tanking and DPS. Jewelcrafting of course has the stronger gems and the prismatic colour on them. It's a tough choice, imo.

Although I think I'll end up a Leatherworker.

Neeb · 10/29/08, 3:00 PM

I wanted to thank all the EJ posters for all the help i have gleened in reading the shaman/warlock mechanics...Now the DK ones. I hope to actually add some material from now as I am going DK for the expansion (I have been on Beta from day one) Anyway see you soon, I need to catch up from page 91 to current so I do not re-post to much information. =)

• Zurm · 10/29/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Illundai

Basicly, Leatherworking has the added benefit of very awesome DPS AND tanking enchants, whilst Enchanting has the ring enchants which again, benefit me for both tanking and DPS. Jewelcrafting of course has the stronger gems and the prismatic colour on them. It's a tough choice, imo.

Although I think I'll end up a Leatherworker.

I'm going to be going BS/JC. BS has the extra slots, and JC has the souped-up gems. Seems like a match made in heaven

Cambriel · 10/29/08, 3:16 PM

Given my profound lack of cash on the server where I'll be starting my deathknight (stupid friends had to go and reroll alliance), I'll probably end up mining just to try and have some cash on hand. I figure the gems from prospecting will be a good enough fit with jewelcraft.

I've just been trying to stock up on enough of the essentials to give my DK a little head start. With only a few hundred gold to play with, it's difficult to get too far ahead.

Oxylos · 10/29/08, 3:16 PM

What is a good estimate for length of time to do the initial DK quests to get to 58 and into the mainland?

• Zurm · 10/29/08, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Oxylos

What is a good estimate for length of time to do the initial DK quests to get to 58 and into the mainland?

2-3 hours depending on experience/skill/number of others. If it's super crowded (like it will be launch) don't be surprised if it takes 4 on a high-pop server.

Illundai · 10/29/08, 3:21 PM

I've found the only portion where you significantly slow down is the torturing bit; if you get unlucky and it takes you a while to get that, you could very well be stuck there for 30-40 minutes on that quest alone.

tedv · 10/29/08, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by NeuroMedivh

It is entirely possible to get Mining to 290 based solely on smelting ore. I tested this on beta, and it takes about 15-20 minutes. While you could easily just skip mining and power through Outlands, my plan is thus:

Get to 58, head to Stormwind. After I talk to the king, camp to my storage alt, mail all ore, bags, etc to my DK (including some gloves with +5 mining). Get back on DK, head to forge, smelt to 290. Head to Blasted Lands, spend a few minutes getting mining to 295, then head to Outlands (where, with the gloves, I can mine Fel Iron).

There are still issues smelting your way totally to 290, because there are some gaps that require getting really lucky, both at the end of Mithril and the end of Truesilver. For example, the yellow to grey range on Mithril is skills 175 to 230. That means you have a 1 in 55 chance of getting the 229 -> 230 skill point (plus 2 in 55 chance for 228 -> 229, and so on). You can't start smelting Truesilver until you have exactly 230 skill. So the estimated amount of mithril ore you'd need is:

55/1 + 55/2 + 55/3 + ... + 55/55 ~= 253 = 13 stacks

But because you're still relying on the last few (low_number in 55) chances, there's a lot of variance. Similarly, Truesilver will require 72 (almost four stacks) for 20 skill points, which isn't exactly easy to find on the auction house even if you're paying any price. I definitely think the time to smelt is worthwhile, but it's costlier than you'd think

Flamingcloud · 10/29/08, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by NeuroMedivh

At 68, head to Northrend, and work Blacksmithing to 350 (I have all the mats required banked already). XP in outlands till 70, then get blacksmithing up to 375 using Cobalt and make myself a Lionheart Executioner. Based on wowhead research, there won't be a quest replacement for it till Zul'drak at least, and the mats for it should be cheap right before Lich King comes out.

What other supplies do you think would be worth getting? Besides the aforementioned BS/Mining mats, I have a Blade of Misfortune, Cobrahide leg armor, and some scrolls of enchant for the DK starting armor. I figure with enchants, this gear should last till Northrend and I can not worry about any upgrades except to weapon. Do you think some flasks/elixirs would be worth getting? They seem like overkill, since I wouldn't need them except for elite quests, which I would most likely be skipping anyway.

I very much doubt you will be able to makeup the time spent crafting 375+ items and time buying cobalt with the increased killing speed of the lionheart. In the long term this is probably better, but if what you are interested in shooting for something like the server first dk feat of strength I would deem this a waste of time.

As to what else, [Gauntlets of the Skullsplitter], [Boots of the Decimator], [Onslaught Elixir], [Elixir of Major Strength], [Elixir of the Mongoose], [Ravager Dog] are some of the things I have stocked up.

NeuroMedivh · 10/29/08, 3:22 PM

I firmly believe Mining is the way to go, at least until I get enough Titansteel for a Destroyer and a couple of pieces. I have a 380 JC on another toon that I will be leveling after the DK, so unless there are some excellent BoP gems, I'll stick with Mining for the first few weeks.

boomix · 10/29/08, 3:31 PM

Some great ideas on trade skills. I have recently leveled Blacksmith to 375 and it was huge pain to do so but 350 and even 360 are not that bad. It became a problem when I decided to level JC/BS combo. That is insane amount of mats required. But I may just level BS/Mining from ore like someone has suggested.

I have a question. If you cannot find Blade of Misfortune on your server, how long do you expect you original DK weapon to carry you?

As a side note: I have crafted 2 of the following(only because I will be going into this with dual-boxing of unholly DKs): FelIron plate set, Admantite set, Adamantite Cleaver to tie me over, 2 Green Alexandrite rings of Soldier/Beast, 2 Felsteel rings. are these enough to fill in the gap in gear as I level?

NeuroMedivh · 10/29/08, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

There are still issues smelting your way totally to 290, because there are some gaps that require getting really lucky, both at the end of Mithril and the end of Truesilver. For example, the yellow to grey range on Mithril is skills 175 to 230. That means you have a 1 in 55 chance of getting the 229 -> 230 skill point (plus 2 in 55 chance for 228 -> 229, and so on). You can't start smelting Truesilver until you have exactly 230 skill. So the estimated amount of mithril ore you'd need is:

55/1 + 55/2 + 55/3 + ... + 55/55 ~= 253 = 13 stacks

But because you're still relying on the last few (low_number in 55) chances, there's a lot of variance. Similarly, Truesilver will require 72 (almost four stacks) for 20 skill points, which isn't exactly easy to find on the auction house even if you're paying any price. I definitely think the time to smelt is worthwhile, but it's costlier than you'd think

Yeah, my testing on beta showed this. I currently have over 20 stacks of mithril and 5 stacks of Truesilver just for this eventuality, as my initial test on beta showed these were the slowdown points. Thorium is another issue, getting that last 289-290 point requires far more thorium than is worth it, so I'll most likely get to 289 and get 290-295 in Blasted Lands or Burning Steppes. Blasted Lands is "on the way", but Burning Steppes has a better chance of getting the skillups faster.

As for Lionheart Executioner being a waste of time, it probably is. I *should* just skip mining and blacksmithing entirely until I hit 80, but where's the fun in that? =) And lets be honest, the first DK to 80 won't win by an hour, he'll win by 6-10 hours at least.