WotLK Discussion - Talents and abilities. - Page 139

Aeronx · 09/26/08, 1:47 PM

Well that's true! Maybe seen like this it seems useful, I've they get a little bit more buffed doing DPS, I think they will be as good as another DPS.

And about PVP, I see them like a suport class, silence, interrupt, magic resist for everybody, they heal them selves. But there's something important in PVP, and it's that you need CC and a good, at least, short burst. I dont think a DK could play 2vs2 with a healer or another DPS.

But its just a point of view!

(Im just new testing the DK, and they hit a lot harder before the last patch. About howling blast, and Icy touch, they now are usefull!

)

klineshrike · 09/26/08, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by vank

Obliterate only consumes your diseases.

On another note, I am damn intent on finding the APC for Howling Blast. It's just bugging me not knowing. I have a bunch of data, but I obviously don't know the proper math formula because my APC values are inconsistent (different) depending on my AP. So, could someone offer a quick walk through on how to find APC if you already have values for Net Damage, Attack Power (I'm assuming total AP), and the base damage of the spell?

Oh, and I tested Ebon Plague w/ Scourge Strike, and it definitely adds to the damage... if that was ever in doubt.

To test the APC coefficient, all you need to do is find out how much more damage than the base its doing. Make sure you dont have FF at first to get small numbers, and less variance. Try to get an extremely low ATP, then do enough casts to get close to the min/max and subtract the base min from that min, and base max from that max.

Then increase the ATP, try to do so by as even of a number as possible, and do the same finding min max, then subtracting base. See the diff, then pick another relatively even ATP. If its inconsistant, just look at the numbers - often the coefficients are a pretty even number so you can guess what it should be.

As for the equation, well, you can just send me your numbers via PM and I could find it pretty easy

I really want Howling Blast numbers myself.

Also I apologize for the Ebon Plague thing then, as I could have sworn I read it didn't affect it. Many people claimed SS was a melee attack that was converted to shadwo at the end, preventing it from gaining spell affects and bonuses. This was why it can be blocked (which blizz stated was intentional). If ebon Plague affects it, they need to clarify that. However, the whole arguement was about scaling, thats why we only referred to the % of weapon damage and not the stagnant, bonus damage.

However still, my whole arguement was Oblit scales better than SS. This is still true, even with armor, however its not by much and doesnt seem to catch up to the vast lead SS gets with bonus damage and the lack of armor to worry about. I guess that was the intent though.

Tzen's spreadsheet didnt have Ebon Plague as affecting SS on the version I saw also, so this info helps as I need to include it in mine.

Any info now n ghouls would be very helpful. Like The base bonus they get from your stats like str and armor and stam, and what thier skills are and what they do, and thier base atp and damage at 80.

• vank · 09/26/08, 2:20 PM

Howling Blast APC was finally added to this thread

Skulli · 09/26/08, 3:33 PM

With a typical unholy spec with 53points in unholy (2h), is icy talons worth it to use it over 3/5 bladed armor?

Originally Posted by klineshrike

Any info now n ghouls would be very helpful. Like The base bonus they get from your stats like str and armor and stam, and what thier skills are and what they do, and thier base atp and damage at 80.

Ghoul damage is roughly halfed.
- 225 autoattack, 320 for claws (non crit)
- 331 base str
- 1275 str with 3/3 ravenous dead without any buffs (=> 2111 atp)
- main attack is 334-375

My char has 843 strength without buffs.

Zurai · 09/26/08, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Skulli

With a typical unholy spec with 53points in unholy (2h), is icy talons worth it to use it over 3/5 bladed armor?

No, not for 2h. Haste isn't a very good stat for 2h Unholy, especially if you skip Blood-Caked Blade (as you should). Take Bladed Armor. It benefits the same thing Icy Talons does (autoattack, necrosis, and blood-caked strike damage) and everything else you do, including your parry rating.

tzenes · 09/26/08, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Hisstok

All ratings are universal between spells and melee now, there are only some talents that only effect one or the other.

I did some extensive testing to find out this was NOT true for Crit.

While agil affects physical crit (at 44 to 1%), int affects spell crit chance (at 166 to 1%), thus producing VERY different values for crit.
However, crit rating effects both in the same way

Zurai · 09/26/08, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by tzenes

I did some extensive testing to find out this was NOT true for Crit.

While agil affects physical crit (at 44 to 1%), int affects spell crit chance (at 166 to 1%), thus producing VERY different values for crit.
However, crit rating effects both in the same way

Read what he wrote. All RATINGS are universal now (except ArP and SpP). He didn't say anything about agility. Since DKs have virtually zero agility, it's not much of an issue anyway.

tzenes · 09/26/08, 4:22 PM

please delete this post

Septus · 09/26/08, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Zurai

No, not for 2h. Haste isn't a very good stat for 2h Unholy, especially if you skip Blood-Caked Blade (as you should). Take Bladed Armor. It benefits the same thing Icy Talons does (autoattack, necrosis, and blood-caked strike damage) and everything else you do, including your parry rating.

Wait, a standard 2H unholy build doesn't get much benefit from BCB anymore? I thought that was one of the key talents, even without dual wielding?

Janraea · 09/26/08, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by tzenes

I did some extensive testing to find out this was NOT true for Crit.

While agil affects physical crit (at 44 to 1%), int affects spell crit chance (at 166 to 1%), thus producing VERY different values for crit.
However, crit rating effects both in the same way

edit: After looking through some more, I can't figure out any meaning you could have had that is right.

It looks like the 'this' you are talking about is not something the person you quoted actually said.

Originally Posted by septus

Wait, a standard 2H unholy build doesn't get much benefit from BCB anymore? I thought that was one of the key talents, even without dual wielding?

Yeah, I think he's on crack.

edit: O.O When did BCB go physical? If it stays that way, then yeah, it'll suck.

Zurai · 09/26/08, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Septus

Wait, a standard 2H unholy build doesn't get much benefit from BCB anymore? I thought that was one of the key talents, even without dual wielding?

3 points in BCB generates roughly 1.3% of my total DPS. Those same 3 points in Impurity, for example, improve my DPS by about 3.3%.

BCB is a pretty crap talent at the moment. It only deals 60% weapon damage as physical (so mitigated by armor) at a maximum. It can be blocked, dodged, and parried, and it can miss. It only has a 15% proc rate. It's unaffected by all but two of Unholy's damage multipliers (Rage and Desecration). And, to cap it all off, it comes at a point in the tree that's already very DPS-talent rich.

tzenes · 09/26/08, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

edit: After looking through some more, I can't figure out any meaning you could have had that is right.

It looks like the 'this' you are talking about is not something the person you quoted actually said.

The 'this' was a typo left over from an earlier post I had been writing. When I realized that's what Zurai was referring to I deleted my response to him.

It was never my intention to imply that Skulli was in any way wrong, merely to show the way that these two stats effected crit in different ways, so people didn't do something foolish like stack gear with one of them.

On the subject of ghouls:

Without my armor on:
Strength 537 (tooltip says this constitutes 1054 ap, which is off by 20 ap or 10 str)
Attack Power 1373

This implies 319 base attack power or possibly 299

When I put my armor on:
Strength 1207 (the tooltip says 2394 ap so it is consistently off by 10 str which seems unnecessary, but at least consistant)
Attack power 2045

This implies a -349 base attack power or possibly -329

Clearly there is something going on with the ghouls attack power that might be worth investigating

Ultimate · 09/26/08, 5:08 PM

I have through about 90% of this thread over the last few weeks. Has there been any real data or testing on whether or not DK can and will be main tanks for competitive progression guilds.

crimsonsentinel · 09/26/08, 8:06 PM

I'm also very curious to know if death knights can reach the type of health, mitigation, and avoidance numbers as other tanks because I need to know if I should play death knight or feral druid in the expansion.

Roku · 09/26/08, 10:27 PM

I also wanna know if they are gonna be Viable DPS for a hardcore raiding guild.I am not in the beta so what does Death Knight Viability look like?Are they bring any worth while buffs to the raid that stacks with other things?