Err... the gargoyle is very sub-par for raiding? Care to explain?

I understand the math you're doing with DC. My point was you can't, practically speaking, spend only 15 RP; you can't perform a 37.5% DC every rotation. If you really want to get technical, you can spend that extra RP after 3 rotations, when it adds up to 45 RP. You therefore gain 33% of a DC averaged out over each rotation.

Overall, no one was arguing about dual-wielding for this Unholy spec. SS is naturally going to do less with a 1h weapon. I doubt many people will go deep Unholy for dual wield anyway-- you're speccing deep into a tree and not actually gaining a primary strike ability by going all the way down to SS. Howling Blast will be a considerably better UF rune ability for dual wielding, and has a massively better crit rate with Killing Machine.

With 2 hands weapon.

Ice touch = ( 0.125*AP + 236 )*1.4*1.51

Death Coil = ( 0,1875*AP + 443 )*1,4*1.66

Plague Strike = (0.3*NormalizedWeaponDamage+113.4)*1.598*1.6

Scourge Strike = (0.6*NormalizedWeaponDamage+477)*1.598*1,46

Use 4000 AP, 40% critical and 733 average weapon damage (the S5 2 hand weapon) on a raid boss, mean 30.88% ( coefficient 0.6912 ) damage reduction and assume 6% partial resist.

NormalizedWeaponDamage = 733+(4000/14*3.3)=1675,85714

Ice touch = 1555,904*0.84( partial resist + glyph ) = 1306,95936
Plague Strike = 1575,39058*0.6912=1088,90997
Death Coil = 2772,532*0.94=2606,18008

Scourge Strike = 3458,82443*0.94=3251,29496

IT+PS have +15 more RP generate, it mean 37.5% of DC.
IT+PS+0.375*DC = 3373,18686 > 3251,29496

Still higher.

Edit : for the DW versus 2 Hand in deep unholly, there is a match, dps are pretty close depend if you gonna put you're DPS more in SS or in DC.

DW have some great benefit, BcB procc from offhand is calcul with Main Hand average damage, which end of course at very higher dps than 2 Hand, also you will have more often crusader procc, which is also big dps increase.

Does it worth to lose the benefit of high average weapon damage and normalisation speed at 3.3, i guess it will mid game, and it will even going far in front at end game.

But that wasn't the point i wanna show with the previous thread, i post my math with 2 hands calcul and the result is still the same even if SS come closer.

Edit 2 : the 5 RP left after the extra DC will still be here and contribe to another one DC later. technically we evaluate a DPS by RP, that's exactly what i've done.

Edit 3 : try go consider AP scaling of each, SS = 0.6*NormalizedWeaponDamage, it can mean 0.6*Average Weapon Damage +0.6*AP/14*3.3.
We so have AP*(0.6*3.3/14) = 0,14142 contribution of AP at SS.
PS = 0,07071
DC = 0.375*0,1875*AP = 0,07031
IT = 0.125*AP
(0.125+0.07031+0.07071)*AP = 0,26602 > 0.14142

EDIT : Input +190.5 damage to SS and +113.4 to PS

Moratia, read the tooltip on SS. It's damage is

(0.6*[NormalizedWeaponDamage] + 190.5 + 95.25*[#ofDiseases])*[Various Multipliers]

You keep leaving out that 190.5, which is a significant omission.

Moratia, if you are going to count the damage from a portion of a DC based on the RP generated from the IT + PS, then why not include the portion of DC damage into the SS that results from its RP generation?

Or the extra GCD that only using a single ability generates.

True, neither i consider the +113.4 for PS, i'll update my math. MATH EDIT

Edit : 5 RP base generate + 5 RP per rune consume.

PS = 1 rune = 5 base + 5 rune + 5 talent = 15
IT = 1 rune = 5 base + 5 rune + 10 glyph = 20
Total = 35
SS = 2 rune = 5 base + 10 rune + 5 talent = 20
Total = 35-20 = 15.

@Zurai
Because i only count the difference between both RP generation

Torrential, single rune abilities generate 10 RP, double generate 15 RP (if my memory is working correctly). The IT Glyph makes it do 10% less damage for 10 more RP generation.

Edit: Fixed to correct the numbers as corrected by Flamingcloud. My coffee wore off and I started factoring in talents into base calculations.

I'd made the assumption about 2 runes = 20 RP but then I found info saying it was all 10. The combination of fast changes and decaffeinated people in the internet is making it hard to find reliable info :o

Thank you for the help.

Edit: After the post below this one I'm ready to close excel rofl

Edit2: Word choice change

Double rune abilities generate 15 RP, triple rune abilities 20 RP.

First of all, to clear things up, my current spread sheet has been changes to work on a variable "clock arithmetic" system. Incidentally, it shows better performance for IT/PS over an extra SS.

If you are interested you can find it here: tzenes Profile, tzenes Details - FileFront.com

What my math showed (several pages ago) was the proper framework for comparing the two, not deciding which.

Yeah, I actually started to figure this out as well as I tried to work out what you'd actually be spending your RP on each rotation. With Moratia's (i.e. refreshing IT/PS each time) you get 1 UB + 2 DC per rotation without disrupting anything, leaving 10 RP leftover every 20 seconds. With the standard SSx4 rotation, you get 1 UB + 1 DC, and 35 RP leftover every 20 seconds. Spending the excess in the next rotation before you cap out can throw abilities off, too.

Also, if you do IT - PS - BS - BS - SS IT - PS - SS - SS but retain the Epidemic ability, you can play it the way I play Blood rotations, which means always dumping RP every 10 second rotation and using the 2.5 sec latency buffer on runes to your advantage in terms of GCDs.

So, apologies Moratia. It does seem to work a little better overall your way.

Closer to mine ?

I'd be glad if you could compare my result with your using same variable to see how accurate are our spread sheet.

That's a pain for me to explain well in english :/

I've been looking it over, and it looks like some of the sections are pretty ambitious in what they try to model. The finished product is going to be really impressive. Thanks!

There were a few pages I didn't entirely understand, especially the rotations sections. For example, it looks like your Blood Rotation assumes 5 Heart Strikes and 2 Obliterates (not to mention only 2 Death Coils). Am I missing something there? Seems pretty, well, improbable.

Someone have math close to reality of bat damage ? I haven't beta key and this skill is really dark for me.

I wonder if it worth it, i have some doubt seeing how DC scale is OP as unholly, plus the talent point could go somewhere else.

I'm assuming you mean Gargoyle, in which case, no, I think we're still kind of fuzzy on how it works. We know what the AP coefficient is, but as Zurm pointed out, its attack rate is pretty erratic so it's not necessarily consistent damage.

I redid the starter area this morning and after 1 hour I was only halfway through 56, I'd love some hints as to how you did it so fast.

On a bit of a tangent, does anyone know of a list of quests that can be completed with AH or farmable items? I'm thinking of Natural Enemies in Zangar that just requires Bog Lord Tendrils. It could be quite a boon to have these items farmed up and ready for release day.

You didn't include multipliers. Assuming 100% Desecration time, your multipliers should be:

DC: 1.76 (1.81 raid)
PS: 1.76 (1.85 raid)
IT: 1.53 (1.58 raid)
SS: 1.53 (1.58 raid)
Diseases: 2.17 (2.52 raid)

Ok, so Rotation 2 has been my pet project for a while (one of the reasons I haven't done a tone of updates lately). Once I finish that, gargoyle, ghoul, and rime, the spreadsheet will be "finished." Which is to say, it models almost everything and I'll move to Beta releases on the wow forums in addition to here.

Right now, Rotation allows you to select what you feel is the ideal rotation based on a 20 second rotation. The diseases do NOT update properly.

Rotation 2, in turn, allows you accurately model a proper rotation (with everything from disease uptime to rune refresh and filler rp dumps). It won't check to see if you've done something impossible, but it will allow you to specify any arbitrary rotation length. For comparison purposes, I suggest you play with that.
Edit: it requires your rotation is a multiple of 10 for now.

I will warn you, that desecration still assumes 100% uptime.

Also if you're going to play around with your own specs, I recommend using the Custom Sheet.

Gargoyle ( and not bat sorry ^^ ) can get critical strike ?

if it go at 25 strike on 60 secondes, it mean 2.4 second CD between each attack which make 0.4*AP Damage.
50 RP + 50*8 = 450 RP.
25*0.4*AP/450 = 0.02222*AP per RP.

DC = ( 0,1875*AP + 443 ) /40 = 0,00468 + 11,075 per RP

You would need 49842,48424 AP just to surpass the 11.075 base damage from DC, it might have a mistake somewhere...

@Tzenes
That's bizare, i didn't took desecration to SS, since the comparison was between the 4*SS rotation with the 100% desecration up time, but i take it in consideration for other skill.

Could you list all damage modifier you used please ?

This is my list I put together a few days ago. Getting the Flawless Draenethyst Shard is pretty hard though if you can't find Teremus (I've been camping him for days to no avail :<)

The Gargoyle cannot crit without special circumstances (read: raid buffs/debuffs). However, it hits right about as hard as a deathcoil, except every ~2 seconds. Also, since the change to give it 10 free seconds, it's nowhere near as exclusive as it once was; you can afford to throw a deathcoil or two while the gargoyle's up.

Assuming a 4 SS rotation, only the last 2 lose the effect of Desecration.

PS: Outbreak, Desecration, Bone Shield, RoR (and 2h but you took that into account)
IT: Desecration, Bone Shield, Ebon Plague, RoR
SS: Desecration, Bone Shield, Ebon Plague, RoR
DC: Morbidity, Desecration, Bone Shield, Ebon Plague, RoR
Diseases: Desecration, Crypt Fever, Bone Shield, RoR

Raid Buffs:
Physical Vulnerability, Percentage Damage Increase


It just occurred to me, do Diseases benefit from Ebon Plague in addition to Crypt Fever? For some reason, half my sheets have it one way, and half have it the other... (raid include, personal do not)