WotLK Discussion - Talents and abilities. - Page 152

• Zurm · 11/04/08, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

I consider this a bonus for frost and for blood - blood won't be able to help capping much of the time from sudden doom procs (last I checked. If blood can keep up with its rp generation now, please correct me), and frost gets two big Icy Touchs and an HB while at range (depending on which rotation and when it gets interrupted). Unholy, on the other hand, will rarely be able to do more than weak icy touches.

Frost can't get two icy touches AND an HB unless death runes or a Rime proc are involved. But if you compare the DPS you get from range-dependant dps, you'll notice that the vast majority (at least 70%) comes from white attacks, procs, and strikes in virtually any build. And since at least one disease is applied via a melee strike, you might want to factor that in as well. But absolutely, that dps calculation dosen't factor that in... but even if the raid contribution was only 200 dps in that example, point for point it's still one of the best uses of talents for raid dps in the entire tree (and that was the point I was trying to make).

Janraea · 11/04/08, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Frost can't get two icy touches AND an HB unless death runes or a Rime proc are involved. But if you compare the DPS you get from range-dependant dps, you'll notice that the vast majority (at least 70%) comes from white attacks, procs, and strikes in virtually any build. And since at least one disease is applied via a melee strike, you might want to factor that in as well. But absolutely, that dps calculation dosen't factor that in... but even if the raid contribution was only 200 dps in that example, point for point it's still one of the best uses of talents for raid dps in the entire tree (and that was the point I was trying to make).

I was assuming an average of one death rune per frost rotation, from BotN, and I absolutely agree that unholy aura is worthwhile - I wasn't arguing, just meaning that that discussion had made me think about what a moving fight implies a bit more. Also, I left out blood boil, which appears to work at range as well, from the mmoc description - unholy gets slightly more out of that. Vastly more, if the moving periods are > 12s long. (death runes -> extra icy touches -> extra rp -> extra dcs). And I also missed the death rune unholy is likely to have up already.. I guess blood is looking like the weakest in a running fight after all.

Solithaira · 11/04/08, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Illundai

Ah, didn't think the official forums could have useful information, thanks a lot. That's very helpful, seems like most of the quests I was planning to do will still be useful.

Could you (or anyone else) please confirm/deny that you receive 420k exp for doing the Death Knight starting area quests?

By my calculation with a RAF following you around this would solicit 1,260,000 experience, which according to my research would put you within 5800exp of hitting level 61.

You could then do cloth turn ins + Un'goro Crystal Turn ins (grey at 64) + Silithus turn ins Twilight Text/Abyssal Crest (green till 63).

These quests would easily put you at level 61. I'd probably skip the EPL quests as I don't want to fight with 20 other DK's for the Cauldron quests...but you could go back as they are green till 63 and don't really turn grey to 72. Setting a HS in Shatt and just hearthing to Ebon Gate would negate just about any real travel time at this point.

Overall...you can pretty much blast through 55 - 61.5 if you were so inclined...assuming the beginning quests give 420k exp solo

Edit: Gah. I forgot that you only get thrip exp until level 60. Not entirely sure if I do a massive quest turn in at 59.9...if it will grant me the full thriple exp or just regular exp once i've hit 60. Either way...quest turn ins should be sufficient to go through 60 i would think...and i' probably return to EPL

Dristig · 11/04/08, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Nephthys

Regarding rune cooldown addons, I agree that the ones we have now seem lacking. Like there's got to be a better way to show that information. I'm having trouble imagining what that would be, though. The traditional status bar / icon spinner frameworks don't seem up to the task.

What information do we want from a rune addon? In order of priority, I'd say:
1. Which runes are available NOW
2. Which runes are almost available
3. Whether the almost-available runes are available on the next GCD, or whether there's space to throw in another ability like Death Coil.
Ideally, an addon would show all this information such that point 1 is more visible than point 2, and so on.

What do we NOT need to know? What information can we throw out to make the display easier to read?
4. Whether it's the left blood rune or the right blood rune (for example) that's available.

The different addons we have highlight these things to different degrees. RuneHero, for example, is really good at points 2 and 3. Not so much at point 1, because moving things always attract your attention more than static things. This is the big failing of bar-based addons and those that put number text on icons. Available runes should stand out more than non-available ones. SimpleRune takes a different approach and is really good at points 1 and 2, but really bad at point 3.

I think the big question is: what kind of graphical convention would cover all of these bases, in the order they need to be covered?

Wow I really want to respond to this can we spin off a thread in the UI forum for a Rune Tracking Brain storm? This doesn't really seem like the place for it.

• Zurm · 11/04/08, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Dristig

Wow I really want to respond to this can we spin off a thread in the UI forum for a Rune Tracking Brain storm? This doesn't really seem like the place for it.

While we are at it, we should probably make two new threads; one for DPS and one for tanking (or re-use this one for DPS and make a seperate tanking one). Would be great we coudl consolitate up-to-date info on the first page of a thread for a kind of "one-stop-shop" theorycrafting, and to help prevent dumb questions from being asked every 5 pages.

Eetabeetay · 11/04/08, 5:04 PM

OK im having a bit of trouble understanding the how the rotation goes, and I am very much a visual learner so i started illustrating it on excel. I assumed the IT glyph, Dirge, Reaping, Gargoyle, SS, UB, Butchery, and Desecration. Could someone take a look at this and tell me if anything's wrong so far and/or fix/finish it.

DK_rotation.xlsx - FileFront.com

dr_AllCOM3 · 11/04/08, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

While we are at it, we should probably make two new threads; one for DPS and one for tanking (or re-use this one for DPS and make a seperate tanking one). Would be great we coudl consolitate up-to-date info on the first page of a thread for a kind of "one-stop-shop" theorycrafting, and to help prevent dumb questions from being asked every 5 pages.

Those dumb questions will triple when the addon launches. We should wait a bit or make an extra thread for talk and stupid questions.

Originally Posted by Dristig

Wow I really want to respond to this can we spin off a thread in the UI forum for a Rune Tracking Brain storm? This doesn't really seem like the place for it.

Just make a thread in the interface forum.

Nephthys · 11/04/08, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dristig

can we spin off a thread in the UI forum for a Rune Tracking Brain storm? This doesn't really seem like the place for it.

Done.

Pyros · 11/04/08, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by Solithaira

Could you (or anyone else) please confirm/deny that you receive 420k exp for doing the Death Knight starting area quests?

By my calculation with a RAF following you around this would solicit 1,260,000 experience, which according to my research would put you within 5800exp of hitting level 61.

You could then do cloth turn ins + Un'goro Crystal Turn ins (grey at 64) + Silithus turn ins Twilight Text/Abyssal Crest (green till 63).

These quests would easily put you at level 61. I'd probably skip the EPL quests as I don't want to fight with 20 other DK's for the Cauldron quests...but you could go back as they are green till 63 and don't really turn grey to 72. Setting a HS in Shatt and just hearthing to Ebon Gate would negate just about any real travel time at this point.

Overall...you can pretty much blast through 55 - 61.5 if you were so inclined...assuming the beginning quests give 420k exp solo

Edit: Gah. I forgot that you only get thrip exp until level 60. Not entirely sure if I do a massive quest turn in at 59.9...if it will grant me the full thriple exp or just regular exp once i've hit 60. Either way...quest turn ins should be sufficient to go through 60 i would think...and i' probably return to EPL

I did the math already like 2pages back, and showed you'll hit 61 or be within 10k after doing cloth turn ins if you RAF 2 DKs until 60 in the tutorial thingie.

To sum up, hopefully once and for all, the RAF options to powerlevel a DK:

First option, you already have a 59+ that's RAFed to your future DK account, with at least 3 levels to gift. When wotlk launches, you start your DK, do the whole thing as usual, you try avoiding killing unnecessary mobs, and make sure to SKIP the TRAINER QUEST(CLICKY). You can first take it when you're done doing the initial Lich King stuff and go downstairs to talk with Morgraine who gives you the Archerus Blessing buff and until you're done with the LHC event. When you're done with the tutorial, you'll be asked to go see Thrall or Wrynn in Org or SW, and at that point, you can either summon your RAF account, or simply log him in orgrimmar/SW and gift your level. After that, you finish the thrall/wrynn step and level to 61. You don't need to train any of the skills you get during the tutorial, they're mostly useless, the basic stuff is more than enough. You'll be able to train at Morgraine before leaving for Org/SW, or you can just leave, gift the levels, then use your Gate spell to come back to Archerus and train.

Second option, you don't have a char to gift. You will need 2 accounts RAFed, both with lvl 55+ on the server you want to play so you can create a DK on each. You will dual log the DKs until you hit 60, at some point in the middle of the tutorial, at which point you can stop dual logging since you don't get a bonus from the RAF anymore. After doing every quest INCLUDING the trainer quest and the thrall/wrynn quest, you should be at ~60.7. After that, turning in all cloth for the 5 capitals, OR doing approx 70-80k worth of WPL/Hellfire quests should level you to 61.

Those are the 2 ways to hit 61 in less than 2hours on a DK, and start questing directly in zangarmarsh while everyone is fighting in WPL or hellfire.

Edit for the people who want to double check:
Xp from quests in the tutorial=420k
Xp from mobs during the tutorial~=40k
800k is needed out of the 1260k you get from RAF quest to hit 60
Leaves approximatively 153k after 60 from quests without the RAF bonus, to which you can add ~50k from mobs(40k + a bonus from killing some of them while RAFed), so about 200k worth of xp in 60. You need 290k for 61, so about 80k give or take 10k is needed after the DK quests to lvl to 61.
Cloth turnin total: 88250 xp

Edit 2 for sake of completion:
Using 2nd method, when you're at 59.9 or close enough, ungroup the 2 DKs, hit 60 on the one you don't need, gift 1level to your real DK to 60.9, then finish the tutorial. Should end up at ~61.6 or so instead. For this to work, you need to make the DK you want to keep on your original account, so the one who gifts is on the RAF account. Thanks to ansga for pointing out the strat to squeeze even more xp out of it.

• Zurm · 11/04/08, 5:55 PM

I have a question for those of you who have been closely following blood. From what I see, there are two viable blood specs to try: 50/0/21 and 51/13/7. I was curious if anyone had any opinions on these two... I favored the 51/13/7 from personal tests, but I can see where the 10 points in frost might be considered a waste. I just find the rotation for the 51/13/7 seems much more natural for a DK rotation, but points in unholy for 50/0/21 are also wasted (epidemic).

Regarding frost, I faced a seperate dilema in getting points in epidemic as opposed to changing up the rotation. Are single-cooldown (each rune is only used once) rotations going to be required as frost and blood?

Illundai · 11/04/08, 6:06 PM

Yeah, I'm just done readjusting my level route for those interested.

If we go by the assumption that you'll be ~60,5 when you get out of the starting zone (a bit lower than Pyros is using, but if you are even higher, all the better). I'll be using this route (I can't find the XP reward per quest atm, I just have the zone/city totals):

Zone/City	XP Reward
Stormwind	19.550
Darnassus	22.064
Exodar	17.650
WPL	148.798
EPL	61.500
Stormwind	15.400
Ironforge	35.300
Blasted Lands	16.600
Total	336.862

Zone/City	Quests done/picked up
Stormwind	The First And The Last (pick up)
	Honor the Dead
	Flint Shadowmore (pick up)
	Assisting Arch Druid Staghelm (pick up)
	4 Cloth turnins
Darnassus	4 Cloth turnins
	Assisting Arch Druid Staghelm
	Un'Goro Soil
	Morrowgrain Research
	Morrowgrain Research
Exodar	A Call To Arms: The Plaguelands! (pick up)
	4 Cloth Turnins
WPL	A Call To Arms: The Plaguelands!
	Flint Shadowmore
	The Eastern Plagues (pick up)
	Clear The Way
	The Mark of The Lightbringer (OPTIONAL) (+followup)
	The Scourge Cauldrons (+ All followups)
	All Along the Watchtowers (OPTIONAL)
	Better Late Than Never (+ followup)
	Mrs. Dalson's Tears (OPTIONAL) (+followups)
	Unfinished Business (OPTIONAL) (+followup)
	Pick up The Blightcaller Cometh (after completing The Eastern Plagues)
EPL	Bonescythe Digs
	The Elemental Equation
	Savage Flora
	Binding the Dreadnaught
	Crypstalker Armor Doesn't Make Itself
	That's Asking A Lot
	They Call Me The Rooster
Stormwind	Better Late Than Never (+followups, dont accept the quest to go back to WPL)
	The Blightcaller Cometh
Ironforge	8 Cloth turnins
Blasted Lands	Everything Counts In Large Amounts
	To Serve Kum'isha

You should be almost level 62 when you complete this route and you can go straight to Zangarmarsh if you so please.

• Zurm · 11/04/08, 6:09 PM

How are you getting level 60.5 after leaving the starting area? Every time I've done it I've been just into level 58. Is this involving RAF?

• vank · 11/04/08, 6:09 PM

He's probably RAF'ing 2 levels.

Illundai · 11/04/08, 6:10 PM

Yeah, I'll be dualboxing two DKs through the startzone until I'm level 60.

ansga · 11/04/08, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Pyros

I did the math already like 2pages back, and showed you'll hit 61 or be within 10k after doing cloth turn ins if you RAF 2 DKs until 60 in the tutorial thingie.

To sum up, hopefully once and for all, the RAF options to powerlevel a DK:

First option, you already have a 59+ that's RAFed to your future DK account, with at least 3 levels to gift. When wotlk launches, you start your DK, do the whole thing as usual, you try avoiding killing unnecessary mobs, and make sure to SKIP the TRAINER QUEST(CLICKY). You can first take it when you're done doing the initial Lich King stuff and go downstairs to talk with Morgraine who gives you the Archerus Blessing buff and until you're done with the LHC event. When you're done with the tutorial, you'll be asked to go see Thrall or Wrynn in Org or SW, and at that point, you can either summon your RAF account, or simply log him in orgrimmar/SW and gift your level. After that, you finish the thrall/wrynn step and level to 61. You don't need to train any of the skills you get during the tutorial, they're mostly useless, the basic stuff is more than enough. You'll be able to train at Morgraine before leaving for Org/SW, or you can just leave, gift the levels, then use your Gate spell to come back to Archerus and train.

Second option, you don't have a char to gift. You will need 2 accounts RAFed, both with lvl 55+ on the server you want to play so you can create a DK on each. You will dual log the DKs until you hit 60, at some point in the middle of the tutorial, at which point you can stop dual logging since you don't get a bonus from the RAF anymore. After doing every quest INCLUDING the trainer quest and the thrall/wrynn quest, you should be at ~60.7. After that, turning in all cloth for the 5 capitals, OR doing approx 70-80k worth of WPL/Hellfire quests should level you to 61.

Those are the 2 ways to hit 61 in less than 2hours on a DK, and start questing directly in zangarmarsh while everyone is fighting in WPL or hellfire.

Edit for the people who want to double check:
Xp from quests in the tutorial=420k
Xp from mobs during the tutorial~=40k
800k is needed out of the 1260k you get from RAF quest to hit 60
Leaves approximatively 153k after 60 from quests without the RAF bonus, to which you can add ~50k from mobs(40k + a bonus from killing some of them while RAFed), so about 200k worth of xp in 60. You need 290k for 61, so about 80k give or take 10k is needed after the DK quests to lvl to 61.
Cloth turnin total: 88250 xp

Quick question on this, wouldnt you get more out of it if you let the second DK hit 60 just before your main DK did? Say you're dual boxing your DKs, and a quest turn in would give enough xp to level both to 60, hand in on your second DK first. Then you'd be able to grant a level to your main DK along with handing in the quest making him 61. Or atleast giving him that extra level edge.

Daedalix · 11/04/08, 6:30 PM

A poll was posted on the Official general Forums asking what you're going to do on Day 1 of Wrath and 25% replied "Create a Deathknight". Doesn't mean they will all be rerolling but that's a lot of people. ~65%+ said start leveling their main.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> What are you going to do on Wrath day 1?

I doubt most of those people will continue through the Outlands. Who wants to see that again when Northrend is available. Poll was created 5 hours ago.

Nerub · 11/04/08, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Daedalix

A poll was posted on the Official general Forums asking what you're going to do on Day 1 of Wrath and 25% replied "Create a Deathknight". Doesn't mean they will all be rerolling but that's a lot of people. ~65%+ said start leveling their main.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> What are you going to do on Wrath day 1?

I doubt most of those people will continue through the Outlands. Who wants to see that again when Northrend is available. Poll was created 5 hours ago.

The starting zone will be horribly crowded, but as soon as you move out into the Plaguelands or Outland I doubt there will be much of the initial crowd left. For instance, I'm the only one in my current guild (~35-40 members) that intends to reroll.

Illundai · 11/04/08, 6:42 PM

Originally Posted by ansga

Quick question on this, wouldnt you get more out of it if you let the second DK hit 60 just before your main DK did? Say you're dual boxing your DKs, and a quest turn in would give enough xp to level both to 60, hand in on your second DK first. Then you'd be able to grant a level to your main DK along with handing in the quest making him 61. Or atleast giving him that extra level edge.

Hm, if this would actually work that'd be awesome. Anyone experienced enough with RAF to know if this would work?

ansga · 11/04/08, 6:49 PM

I checked the blizzard FAQ on it before posting and the only stipulation for granting levels was that the toon being granted levels wasnt at the same level or above the toon granting. Link to actual page and quote of exact text follows:

Blizzard Support

Are there any limitations to granting levels to characters played by the veteran player?

Yes. The recruit may not grant a level to a character that is equal to or higher than the current level of the character he or she is playing.
Additionally, the recruit may not grant a level to a character that is level 60 or higher.

So by their own wording it should work.

pldcanfly · 11/04/08, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

I have a question for those of you who have been closely following blood. From what I see, there are two viable blood specs to try: 50/0/21 and 51/13/7. I was curious if anyone had any opinions on these two... I favored the 51/13/7 from personal tests, but I can see where the 10 points in frost might be considered a waste. I just find the rotation for the 51/13/7 seems much more natural for a DK rotation, but points in unholy for 50/0/21 are also wasted (epidemic).

I played both of the speccs(heavily), and my tests showed that 50/0/21 were superior. I dont have Epidemic skilled, since diseases are refreshed every 10 seconds.
My 50/0/21
I spam gargolye on cooldown, and in the time gargoyle is up, i can deathcoil only with a sudden doom proc.

My Rotation was
IT -> PS -> HS -> HS -> OB -> Wait -> IT -> PS -> HS -> HS -> HS -> HS -> repeat.

since i played in unholy-presence i can spam Deathcoil anytime when possible in this rotation, lossing max 1-2 seconds whereas a rune is unused but ready.

ps: 51/13/7
pps: Gear was premade + some items that pushed me to 200 hitrating and replaced the res/stam sockets with 5crit/5str, and pvp-trinket was replaced with: [Fezzik's Pocketwatch]
ppps: you have to add around 50 dps to 50/0/21 dmg since the dummy was on 1 hp.

Althir · 11/04/08, 7:14 PM

I've been working on an Obliterate-focused DPS spec (only on paper, no beta testing).

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00000000000000

The rotation would go something like:

PS -> IT -> OB -> OB -> HS -> HS -> (DC filler)
OB -> OB -> OB -> OB -> HS -> HS (DC filler)

I'm concerned that I won't have enough time to dump RP, which is obviouly a problem. Part of the reason to omit the top end of the Blood tree is to boost my DC (though Morbidity is obviously the big one).

Workable? Suggestions/comments/threats?

Janraea · 11/04/08, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by Althir

I've been working on an Obliterate-focused DPS spec (only on paper, no beta testing).

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00000000000000

The rotation would go something like:

PS -> IT -> OB -> OB -> HS -> HS -> (DC filler)
OB -> OB -> OB -> OB -> HS -> HS (DC filler)

I'm concerned that I won't have enough time to dump RP, which is obviouly a problem. Part of the reason to omit the top end of the Blood tree is to boost my DC (though Morbidity is obviously the big one).

Workable? Suggestions/comments/threats?

I'm.. not sure what you mean here. Are those intended to be 10 second rotations? You're aware that Obliterate costs a Frost Rune and an Unholy Rune, right? Your four Obliterates in a row make me think that you may need to review the skills really quick.

Pyros · 11/04/08, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by ansga

Quick question on this, wouldnt you get more out of it if you let the second DK hit 60 just before your main DK did? Say you're dual boxing your DKs, and a quest turn in would give enough xp to level both to 60, hand in on your second DK first. Then you'd be able to grant a level to your main DK along with handing in the quest making him 61. Or atleast giving him that extra level edge.

Oh very interesting idea. That would give a HUGE edge. I gifted a 59.9 to 60.9 using a lvl 60, so don't see why it wouldn't work. Assuming you do this, after basic cloth turn ins, you'd be within a few quests of 62, since 61>62 is only 30k more than 60>61.

Illundai · 11/04/08, 7:52 PM

Just to be perfectly sure, you can't grant levels from the veteran account to the recruit account, right? I was kind of planning on making my DK on the recruited account :<.

• Zurm · 11/04/08, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by pldcanfly

I played both of the speccs(heavily), and my tests showed that 50/0/21 were superior.

Unless I'm missing something (which is quite likely) your results actually showed 51/13/7 to be superior. And why unholy aura? I'd imagine in a raiding environment missing a disease tick for 15% more damage while RP dumping would be superior.

Regarding a frost spec, I think I came up with a viable one for DPS: 17/54/0. There were a few points at the end that were just filler, but I'm curious if this spec would be reasonable competition to blood/unholy with the following rotation:

X = Oblit or HB, depending on what does more damage on the given fight. Solo testing on the raid dummy on beta just now put HB hitting a good deal harder in level 80 PVE blues and personal buffs only. Also, HB has a 6 sec CD so it can't be used back to back in the second half of the rotation.

PS-> IT -> BS -> BS -> X -> (FS dump)
PS-> IT -> X -> X -> (FS dump)