jokeyrhyme

Request for a little last minute clarification on the information found at Starting a death knight - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Under the "Creating the death knight" section, it says that DKs start with First Aid, Axes (1H + 2H), Defense, Polearms, Swords (1H + 2H), and Unarmed at 270 skill points. Is all of this true (especially the part about First Aid)?

Do DKs know all the First Aid recipes up to (and including) Heavy Runecloth Bandage? Or do they start with skill at 270 and no recipes? How about the anti-venoms?

Maces (1H or 2H) skill isn't mentioned at all, but we can train this? Or do we start with it at 0?

What other weapon skills are DKs able to be trained in?

I realise that since beta has been shutdown, it might be difficult to check this stuff. I'm just asking in case anyone remembers. Thanks.

 

Clandestine

I'm unsure about the Unarmed and Polearms skills, but the rest of those definitely start at 270.

When I made my Death Knight several months ago, they had all of the recipes up to and including Runecloth Bandage, but you had to complete your faction's Triage quest in order to get Heavy Runecloth Bandage. I heard more recently that you now start with Heavy Runecloth Bandage as well, but I didn't double-check to confirm as it's more or less a moot point (if you start with it, cool, if not you're probably going to want to go do Triage, foreknowledge won't make a big difference so I didn't bother checking).

Starts untrained, you have to go and learn it from the Weapon Masters and it starts at 0.

Death Knights can use Swords, Maces, Axes, and Polearms. Death Knights cannot use Staves or Fist Weapons, and as someone else just pointed out, they also cannot use Daggers.

 

Katsira

Blizzard did in fact remove the requirement to do the Triage quest in Theramore.

 

pldcanfly

.. and added Heavy Runecloth Bandage to the start setup. At least I had it when I created my last DK, about 4-5 days before beta-shutdown.

 

Caggy

DK's can't use daggers either as I recall.
They're limited Pally weapons basically. Minus Shield. Plus DW.

 

rhea

Starting a death knight - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
Death Knight FAQ - World of Raids Forums

It's a little unreliable source but I also remember that DKs indeed do have Polearm skill at creation.

 

Theblueoval

A small question about the upcoming Death Knight.

I'm curious if the death knight has an ability to avoid being feared, similar to a warriors zerka rage. I'm currently trying to decide what Horde Race I'm going to choose for my DK.

Any help or re-direction to appropriate threads/replies would be much appreciated.

 

Amroo

You need to specc into Lichborne, 11-point Frost talent for that.

Against magical fears (i.e. warlock or priests) anti-magic shell should also work if you put it up before the fear lands, but I'm not 100% certain on this.

 

richard

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t36303-d...ps_compendium/

Chapter 9.

 

Siawn

Has there been any word on whether DK's will get a talent or glyph that will bring [Horn of Winter] up to the same bonus as [Strength of Earth], assuming 3/3 [Enhancing Totems]? It's a difference of 23.25 str/agi, so it isn't the end of the world one way or the other, but it seems odd that these two analogous abilities come out uneven when Blizzard recently changed Might/BS to be equal.

 

Tantlin

I fixed a major problem with the OH calculations in DKTankCraft the numbers should be much more reliable now.

 

jokeyrhyme

Thanks Clandestine, Katsira, Pldcanfly, Caggy and Rhea for your information. Every morsel is valued!

I noticed back quite a few pages there was a discussion about Desecration. It seemed like the main problem with this talent investment was that there was potentially some difficulty in getting bosses with large hit boxes to fit with the area of effect. I did get the sense though that in cases where you could get the boss to stand on it with you, the boss would be considered snared (for the purposes of suffering extra damage from certain attacks).

However, in the Glyph section in the DPS Compendium, it says that "Many assume that bosses hit with Desecration will take more damage..." "THIS IS WRONG. It is nothing like the warrior daze mechanic in raids...". How does Desecration's effect compare with Slow (Mage), Aftermath (Warlock), Frost Trap (Hunter), Hamstring (Warrior) and any other snare effects in the game?

Does anyone know which of these can be applied to bosses for the purposes of increasing damage done by snare-improved abilities (such as glyphed Blood Strike)?

Is it now true that this talent is only worth the 5% increased damage from standing on it (in PvE)? Is this basically a PvP talent then?

Also, there was further discussion that Death Knights were due one last parse before Wrath. As far as I can tell, build 9183 was the last release that had any DK changes in it at all (with very few changes at all). Was this the hallowed "last parse" or are we waiting for 3.0.4?

 

Daedalix

I dunno about before Wrath (pretty impossible at this point). But it's likely that we'll get a review shortly after Wrath. Blizzard tends to do class tweaking shortly after a major patch/expansion. We haven't gotten the attention that other classes have after the new talents because DKs aren't on live yet. As usual, Blizz hasn't actually given a date or anything.

 

tzenes

Just to keep everyone up to date, I have new version of the spreadsheet:

tzenes Profile, tzenes Details - FileFront.com

It now includes: Hystaria, Gargoyle, and proper strength adjustment

 

level12wizard

I thought about keybinds today and realized there are quite a few, especially with MoG. I can't come close to figuring out how to do keep Leap and Gnaw as "on demand" abilites without manually casting Claw constantly or severly gimping the ghoul's damage. I thought about putting Claw into each of my normal attacks (strikes etc) which might work decently, but it still puts a lot of risk into Gnaw not being up, which to me seems fairly important when trying to take on a stunnable elite caster or doing some random PvP.

Out of curiosity, how are people handling runestrike now? Obviously it's only useful if you're being attacked, but is it just macro'd into your attacks anyway? Or is the RP cost too significant to do that? Things like the change to Kill Command make it obvious that they don't want it strung into every button, but history looks to be repeating itself. Maybe I'm wrong.



As a side note on leveling, I became somewhat concerned looking through my planned route. There are a couple of times where I get unsure if I'll get screwed and unable to pick up quests. Chains like Keristrazsa and DEHTA in Borean Tundra require you to be level 70 (at least according to wowhead), which I find to simply be annoying. It just puts a damper on any DKs or post-Wrath launch characters who could probably do the quests just fine if not for the arbitrary level requirement. I can hope that it's changed, but I doubt it. I'm not looking forward to wasting five-ten minutes taking a detour to a quest hub that actually lets me take quests.

 

Gort

As it sounds like you're going through Borean: Once you finish up the chains required to get your shiny new 2h axe, you'll probably be ~70. 68-70 goes incredibly quickly in Northrend, and I didn't notice a problem at all with not being able to do a quest when I wanted. More than enough to keep you busy, really. Once you step off the zep from Org, you have instant questing to do even at 68. No detours required. Honestly, just get off the zeppelin at 68 and go where they suggest.

 

kommon

If you were going to go 10/8/53 (grabbing Blade Barrier 5/5, Bladed Armor 5/5, 3/3 Imp Icy Touch, and 5/5 Toughness)
for an Unholy tanking/off dps build, do you think it is essential for your dps contribution to the raid (when you're not tanking) to get Gargoyle over something else along the way? The problem is, I do not see what I would not grab in order to get it. I mean I could not max out Impurity, but I don't really like that, or I could not max out Bladed Armor (about 135 AP I would be sacrificing assuming 25k armor)

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150003133151

So I guess my question is, is Gargoyle now considered a 'must have' for any unholy build (whether it be tanking or straight 17/54 dps)? Thanks!

 

Hidden

While tanking the Gargoyle looks quite useless, it's nice for the moments when you're dealing damage with your tank spec though. I'd only spec it in a tanking build if I'm doing a new encounter requiring me to tank but also do some damage while tank specced (Kil'Jaeden for example).

 

Intropy

I think it might be instructive to look at ability use as a state machine rather than as a rotation. I'm not suggesting abandoning rotations outright, I only mean that there are times when a state machine is more interesting. I think this will be useful for two reasons. First, it is easier for some people to remember because it maps more directly into why the ability is being used now. Second, it handles interruptions better.

Here is an example for unholy single target without gargoyle. This should be read from top to bottom, and you do the first thing on the list for which you satisfy the conditions and also have the requisite resources available:

1. If blood plague is down, plague strike.
2. If frost fever is down, icy touch.
3. If unholy blight is down, unholy blight.
4. Sourge strike.
5. Blood strike.
6. If unholy blight is up, death coil.
7. Delay.

 

Avilister

I want to echo something I saw on the DPS Compendium thread. Outbreak isn't all that great for single-target damage, but its usefulness is greatly enhanced when you start talking about AoE scenarios (which are often). There are some vague numbers on the other thread to help illustrate this point.

 

Randyll

The reason why rotations were conceived in the first place were because it was a very concise depiction of your DPS cycle. Theoretically speaking, a rotation is just a very condensed state diagram. Without delving further into how state machines work, I'd say the issue we're dealing with is just semantics. Parsing a rotation leads to a similar 'state diagram' you described, the numerical order is just condensed into a simple left-to-right format.

 

Janraea

A rotation is *a* state diagram, but not all useful state diagrams can be reduced to rotations, unless all randomness is removed. The issue is that the state diagram for 'best rotation' has branches in it, and there are states you can be in that you won't reach in the rotation (from running out of the fire, etc).

The randomness can be removed (from some builds) by capping hit and expertise; but if we wind up in those non-standard states frequently, it would be advantageous to have an understanding of the state machine, instead of just a list of actions you'll take if you always start at state [all runes active, zero rp].

The problem is made larger by the fact that there are far too many states to consider them numerically - we need logical instructions, as per Intropy's example (though they would necessarily be more complicated than those, on the average).

 

Code

Hi all,

Long time reader, first time poster. I'd just like to extend my thanks for months and months of brilliant discussion. Unable to obtain beta entry, I have been using the DK posts on this forum to inform myself about this amazing class.

I have a couple of questions regarding the rotations put forth and glyphs.

1. Is Glyph of Plague Strike so bad that it's not worth taking? Most rotations start with PS-IT-... so I'm assuming people aren't using this glyph?
2. I'm planning on an Unholy AoE grinding spec with Glyph of Bone Shield and Glyph of Death Strike as my two majors, to improve survivability while AoEing. Is this an intelligent choice?
3. The other glyphs that appeal to me are Glyph of Sourge Strike and Glyph of the Ghoul but neither of these seem particularly strong.

My planned rotations are: (assuming 18sec diseases, DC may be replaced with Gargoyle on a tough mob)
Single-Target
IT-PS-SS-BS-BS-DC
SS-SS-BS-BS-DC

AoE: (DS on highest-health target)
IT-PS-Pestilence-DnD-Unholy Blight
DS-DS-BB-BB-DC

Key:
IT - Icy touch
PS - Plague Strike
SS - Scourge Strike
BS - Blood Strike
DC - Death Coil
DnD - Death and Decay
DS - Death Strike
BB - Blood Boil

How far off the mark am I with my valuation of Glyphs and Rotations?

 

Intropy

Oh yes, I completely understand that. What I think I see happening, though, is that some people are devising rotations as rotations instead of as depictions of the result of applying a series of decisions made over time. They are similar and generally will have similar results, but they are not identical unless you describe very long rotations such that all of the relevant cooldowns and durations align.

Consider a rotations where PS and IT appear once each. If that rotations is longer than a certain time, then there will clearly be disease downtime. If that rotation is shorter than a certain time then there will clearly be early refreshing and attendant clipping. The rotation is very good at showing you when exactly diseases will be up and down. The state machine is not good for this. In the example I gave there will probably be downtime, for example. However, what happens if you have to run away from the boss while he does a short range aoe? What do you do when you get back in range? A rotation handles this badly, whereas a state machine handles this easily. Both are useful, and I think both have their places.

Here's something specific to consider. Many pages back there was conversation about the efficacy of the scourge strike glyph. There were some resonable points back and forth and some hand waving each way, but nothing really conclusive came out. However I suspect that a lot of the problem was that the models being used were too rigid. They seemed basically to suggest that either you can skip PS, IT in your rotation or you can't and that the probability of skipping was low. However that's not necessarily true. It's also possible to delay your PS, IT a bit and essentially move it later in your rotation - it would swap with a scourge strike. The correct behavior with a state machine is much clearly and can better help us figure out the value of scourge strike's glyph.

 

Leart

Acclimation

Table of Attack Speeds and Chance of Acclimation Loss

Speed	Attacks	Risk
0.5	36	0%
1	18	0.163%
1.5	12	1.384%
2	9	4.035%
2.5	7.2	7.668%
3	6	11.765%
3.5	5.14	15.972%
4	4.5	20.088%
5	3.6	27.692%

Sapphiron - NPC - World of Warcraft
Offensive Aura: Frost Aura
2 second tick intervals
Chance of Acclimation Loss: 4%

Kael'thas Sunstrider - NPC - World of Warcraft
(This is the magister's terrace version incarnation)
Main Attack: Fireball
2.5 second cast time
Chance of Acclimation Loss: 7.668%

The Effect of Resistance

Damage reduction percentage = (effective resistance value / (caster level * 5)) * 75
The maximum possible resist is therefore 415 on gear, talents, and consumables.
Acclimation can provide 36.1% of your resistance when reaching the maximum.
Or against a caster your level, roughly 28.1% damage reduction with no other resists, and a 30% resist rate for binary spells such as Frost Nova.

Citations: Resistance - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Gear Difference
The New Frost Resistance pieces can be seen here:
Icebane Set - Armor - Items - World of Warcraft
Total resist: 355 (60 below cap)
If instead, you took Acclimation you could skip the chest and come out with 390 resistance.

Heroes' Scourgeborne Chestguard
Stat Change:
-57 Armor
-58 Stamina
+81 Strength
+47 Defense Rating = 8.41
+38 Dodge Rating = 0.85%
+47 Parry Rating = 0.84%
-Yellow Socket

If we assume Acclimation provides an average of 28% damage reduction, it might not be so bad for it to have a chance to fall off. It would not lead you to immediate death. It's less than an old crushing blow, if you look at it that way. But, the fact is that it doesn't even out to an even 28%ish. Instead, it could leave you taking no more, or 50% because of the RNG. This is really, not that much worse than than getting a crushing blow use to be at 50% more damage. It is survivable, and understandable. But, it won't be just one blow in this manner. It will be a string of them until you regain the buff. There are also problems if you get too many resists, or avoid too many blows, that increase the failure rate.