Long time reader, first time poster. I'd just like to extend my thanks for months and months of brilliant discussion. Unable to obtain beta entry, I have been using the DK posts on this forum to inform myself about this amazing class.
I have a couple of questions regarding the rotations put forth and glyphs.
Is Glyph of Plague Strike so bad that it's not worth taking? Most rotations start with PS-IT-... so I'm assuming people aren't using this glyph?
I'm planning on an Unholy AoE grinding spec with Glyph of Bone Shield and Glyph of Death Strike as my two majors, to improve survivability while AoEing. Is this an intelligent choice?
The other glyphs that appeal to me are Glyph of Sourge Strike and Glyph of the Ghoul but neither of these seem particularly strong.
My planned rotations are: (assuming 18sec diseases, DC may be replaced with Gargoyle on a tough mob) Single-Target
IT-PS-SS-BS-BS-DC
SS-SS-BS-BS-DC
AoE: (DS on highest-health target)
IT-PS-Pestilence-DnD-Unholy Blight
DS-DS-BB-BB-DC
Key:
IT - Icy touch
PS - Plague Strike
SS - Scourge Strike
BS - Blood Strike
DC - Death Coil
DnD - Death and Decay
DS - Death Strike
BB - Blood Boil
How far off the mark am I with my valuation of Glyphs and Rotations?
PS before IT, both for Rivendare and Desecration.
For AoE: IT-PS-Pestilence-DnD is 50 RP, if you started at 0 you wont be able to Unholy Blight at this point.
For Single Target: Assuming you have 3/3 reaping, the second part is SS-SS-SS, not SS-SS-BS-BS
of course, i'm just a forum goer, not on the beta, but this is what i've picked up thusfar.
He's using glyph of death strike and glyph of bone shield.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I could swear that inscription was changed so that you got three major and three minor slots, even though when I've glyphed myself I only see two glowing spots.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I could swear that inscription was changed so that you got three major and three minor slots, even though when I've glyphed myself I only see two glowing spots.
Your major glyphs unlock at level 15, 30(?) and 80 - so you'll have 3 major glyphs at level 80.
For AoE: IT-PS-Pestilence-DnD is 50 RP, if you started at 0 you wont be able to Unholy Blight at this point.
For Single Target: Assuming you have 3/3 reaping, the second part is SS-SS-SS, not SS-SS-BS-BS
of course, i'm just a forum goer, not on the beta, but this is what i've picked up thusfar.
Thanks Oxylos! It is difficult to keep all of the variables in my head without having played the class at all. I am talking mainly about levelling (60+) as I'm certain that I will switch to a frost-based tanking spec @ 80. For those playing at home, my planned levelling build's unholy core is: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (possibly dropping 5/5 Impurity to 2/5 and gaining BCB).
It looks as though I might simply generate some RP on a single target before beginning my AoE cycle. That would make things much easier I think; though it does prevent "clean" theorycrafting. That, or I will swap the Death Strike glyph for Icy touch, since I'll most likely be too low on RP (using UB) to maximize the use of the Glyph.
And thank-you once again for pointing out reaping; I forgot how useful death runes can be
Do you guys see this as being an unacceptable risk while tanking as I do?
Acclimation is meant to be an extra perk on fights with magical damage(like a sapphiron/twins), not a gear replacement on fights that require resist rates being capped.
...Do you think the Protection Paladin or a Frost DK would make the better off tank or is everything so homogenized now that it doesn't matter? After leveling the Warrior, my Paladin who is awesome, just seems boring and the DK seems like a nice mix.
Seems like you're up for a change. I'd say go with the DK. You've already got a tonne of actual tanking experience, so it'll basically be just a matter of substituting in the new class quirks and abilities.
As far as I've read, the Warrior is still generally the best sort of tank. There are a few bosses where the DK makes the perfect choice, and other bosses where the DK is the worst. Paladins are probably more generally useful, but their evil twins are just so cool! I have a feeling DKs will steal the limelight with their AoE tanking too. And DKs don't need to be the primary target to build lots of threat (unlike Paladins) so I'd say DKs are probably more suited to the role of off-tank than Paladins.
I'll be auditioning my DK for guild off-tank but I've really only ever done non-70 5-mans. Can't wait! I've been treating my main like an alt for months, so come release it'll be like actually enjoying the game again!
Last edited by jokeyrhyme : 11/11/08 at 4:11 AM.
Reason: bad grammar, sheesh
I've been searching this thread for EP values for a TANKING death knight and have only come up with a DPS DK ep values. Whilst I've looked back the last dozen or so pages I can find nothing. Unfortunately the Think Tank article doesn't yet exist to pull together the collected wisdom and the search page doesn't allow "EP" as a valid search term.
I also tried out the tanking spreadsheet which is very comprehensive but doesn't seem to give EP values either.
So I'm afraid I am resorting to a post in the thread. Have EP values been calculated for tanking specs yet? If so can someone point me to the info or repost it here please.
Edit: Forgive my sig. I usually hang out on the Shammy Forums
Author of ShockAndAweEnhancement Shaman max dps addon
Please use the EnhSim by Ziff & others to simulate what gear, priorities etc are the best dps. You can use ShockAndAwe to export your paperdoll stats to EnhSim.
Have EP values been calculated for tanking specs yet?
Not to my knowledge. Unfortunately for those who wish to tank, the vast majority of DK theorycrafting on these boards has been DPS related. I expect you'll be waiting at least a few weeks into WOTLK for those values.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I've been searching this thread for EP values for a TANKING death knight and have only come up with a DPS DK ep values. Whilst I've looked back the last dozen or so pages I can find nothing. Unfortunately the Think Tank article doesn't yet exist to pull together the collected wisdom and the search page doesn't allow "EP" as a valid search term.
I also tried out the tanking spreadsheet which is very comprehensive but doesn't seem to give EP values either.
So I'm afraid I am resorting to a post in the thread. Have EP values been calculated for tanking specs yet? If so can someone point me to the info or repost it here please.
Edit: Forgive my sig. I usually hang out on the Shammy Forums
Diminishing returns kinda kills there being a permenant exact EP order. However it is pretty clear it goes
Defense (precap) > Dodge > Defense (postcap) > Parry for avoidance stats for dks. Armor I believe is not better than any of those in terms of pure TTL (maybe better than parry) though it does reduce spikes the best, so that gives it additional value. Same goes for stamina, it doesn't do anything for total damage you take, but it does increase the odds you will survive a spike/low heal situation. There is no real way to compare that versus the others except on a fight by fight basis.
Best you can do at the moment is plug in your gear in the tanking spreadsheet and then swap between pure dodge/parry/defense/armor trinkets and see what that gets you.
The DPS EP values in the dps compendium are only valid for that single item set, and the further you get from that set(which I believe was based around a blue heroic weapon) the less accurate it becomes.
The uncertainty I have is how the relative contributions are diminished together. Armor is easy, since everything only contributes to a single value that then diminishes returns as it goes. But how are defense rating and parry rating each diminished in their cumulative value? The same needs to be factored for defense rating, dodge rating, and agility for total dodge %. Miss chance from defense rating should be easy like armor, but that will be one portion of the contribution of defense rating. Also, is diminishing returns applied to each individual avoidance value, or is it the cumulative (capping total dodge + parry + miss at 75% final functional?).
So yeah, nobody knows how to even calculate EP values yet due to diminishing returns, and even when we do know how to calculate them they will fluctuate a lot depending on what we get on new gear.
Lets assume that parry and dodge take equal part in the item budget and provide the same benefit (even if they do not, but just for the sake of argument), if you have 200 of each they would provide the same benefit. But then you get a piece of gear with 30 parry and all of a sudden dodge gets a higher value due to diminishing returns. So if you get an item with 50 dodge after that, parry has a higher EP again. Diminishing returns will really make EP calculations interesting.
For the time being I think the tanking spreadsheets are our best options until somebody calculates how to exactly calculate diminishing returns and what's their interaction with gear changes.
I have read many times in here about Desecration being a bit lack luster due to the area of effect not being large enough to hit a boss. However, in reading the tooltip again it states that you deal 5% more damage while you are standing on the unholy ground. It would seem that only you need to be on the unholy ground and not the mob you are fighting. The only reason to hit a mob would be to use the slowing affect. Can anyone shed some light on this and confirm which way Desecration works?
I have read many times in here about Desecration being a bit lack luster due to the area of effect not being large enough to hit a boss. However, in reading the tooltip again it states that you deal 5% more damage while you are standing on the unholy ground. It would seem that only you need to be on the unholy ground and not the mob you are fighting. The only reason to hit a mob would be to use the slowing affect. Can anyone shed some light on this and confirm which way Desecration works?
The desecration circle starts from the middle of the mobs hitbox, and not from where you are standing. Thus if a mob has a huge hitbox the circle will not be where you are(if you are dpsing from max range). Only really a problem on dumb bosses like sapphiron which seem to cleave out their ass.
The desecration circle starts from the middle of the mobs hitbox, and not from where you are standing. Thus if a mob has a huge hitbox the circle will not be where you are(if you are dpsing from max range). Only really a problem on dumb bosses like sapphiron which seem to cleave out their ass.
I beg to differ. I tested this multiple times in the last weeks before Beta closed, and desecrated ground always came up centered at my feet.
I beg to differ. I tested this multiple times in the last weeks before Beta closed, and desecrated ground always came up centered at my feet.
Well then they fixed it, and there is no longer any real disadvantage to desecration anymore except on movement fights. Still it isn't a great single target boss dps talent regardless of how you look at it. It was proven to be worse than impurity many times, yet you often see builds with desecration maxed and impurity not.
Well then they fixed it, and there is no longer any real disadvantage to desecration anymore except on movement fights. Still it isn't a great single target boss dps talent regardless of how you look at it. It was proven to be worse than impurity many times, yet you often see builds with desecration maxed and impurity not.
I wouldn't say many times. Also, it's important to look into the gear level it was tested with. Desecration affects ALL damage (meaning weapon upgrades make this more valuable) where as only AP upgrades increase the benefit of Impurity. I believe methods' numbers were with a blue weapon, no? Also desecration does provide SOME pvp and utility, which matters to some people.
That's not to say it isn't necessarily true that impurity is better than desecration...the breakdown methods provided shows impurity at twice the potency. In fact, I agree with you from a purely min/max perspective, but I think its still too early to start writing off talents as inferior.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I wouldn't say many times. Also, it's important to look into the gear level it was tested with. Desecration affects ALL damage (meaning weapon upgrades make this more valuable) where as only AP upgrades increase the benefit of Impurity. I believe methods' numbers were with a blue weapon, no? Also desecration does provide SOME pvp and utility, which matters to some people.
That's not to say it isn't necessarily true that impurity is better than desecration...the breakdown methods provided shows impurity at twice the potency. In fact, I agree with you from a purely min/max perspective, but I think its still too early to start writing off talents as inferior.
If desecration and impurity were close(impurity nearly double desecration), than maybe a weapon upgrade would make the difference. The problem is that desecration has a 12 second uptime and you are only using plague strike every 20 seconds (or less with SS glyph). In other rotations like the PS every 10 second rotation with IT when needed to refresh FF, desecration is very good, but that isn't the standard rotation. You also have to factor in that in aoe situations impurity is even better due to all the aoe things not being strike/weapon damage based.
I think you can safely say desecration will not overtake impurity in the 1 PS per 20 second rotation, barring something ridiculous like someone with ashbringer in leveling greens. Some people assume that since something scales on weapon damage, it will scale better in the long term. That is a false assumption, it is very possible that something that only scales on ap will be better at all gear levels. For all we know the gap will widen.
I haven't seen much discussion about the complete lack of options for two-handers for tanking DK's. There's maybe half a dozen weapons that I've found that are two handed and have either hit or expertise on them. Ones without additional stats (crit/agi/etc) are even more rare. I couldn't find any two-hander that has defense/parry/dodge on it at all.
I'm assuming the reason Blizzard hasn't put any of these weapons into the game is because the only class that could potentially use them are Death Knights. The issue I see is it's just one less item that we have any option to swap out to tank a high mitigation/avoidance required boss, such as Brutallus pre-nerf. Any fight that doesn't require exceedingly high threat (which is about everything up to tier 8 at this point) doesn't require threat weapons and stacking mitigation is ideal. We don't have that option unless we use two one handers.
Any official word from Blizzard on this? Unless someone can point out where I'm wrong here, down the line it could handcuff DK's into duel wielding on any fight where mitigation is nearly all that matters.
I haven't seen much discussion about the complete lack of options for two-handers for tanking DK's. There's maybe half a dozen weapons that I've found that are two handed and have either hit or expertise on them. Ones without additional stats (crit/agi/etc) are even more rare. I couldn't find any two-hander that has defense/parry/dodge on it at all.
I'm assuming the reason Blizzard hasn't put any of these weapons into the game is because the only class that could potentially use them are Death Knights. The issue I see is it's just one less item that we have any option to swap out to tank a high mitigation/avoidance required boss, such as Brutallus pre-nerf. Any fight that doesn't require exceedingly high threat (which is about everything up to tier 8 at this point) doesn't require threat weapons and stacking mitigation is ideal. We don't have that option unless we use two one handers.
Any official word from Blizzard on this? Unless someone can point out where I'm wrong here, down the line it could handcuff DK's into duel wielding on any fight where mitigation is nearly all that matters.
Blizzard said they wanted DKs using 2h dps weapons to tank. Not only did they say that, they also said if most dks were tanking with 1 handers, that they would step in to fix that.
[Inevitable Defeat] is better than two mitigation weapons for pure survivability according to the spreadsheet. The only problem I could see is if no Inevitable Defeat 2.0 is made (ie a 2 hander with strength/agility/expertise & above average stam) The only reason to currently use two 1 handers is to get to the defense cap imo, and using a pvp weapon might be a better way to accomplish that.
Precisely. All I was saying is that we don't know enough yet to throw it out. Look how much weapon DPS and AP totals changed over the course of Burning Crusade. That being said, I've asked Illundai to change the Unholy Spec on our compendium thread to have 5/5 impurity and only 3/5 desecration, because I agree with your points... I'm just not 100% sure these will always be true.
Originally Posted by Flamingcloud
Blizzard said they wanted DKs using 2h dps weapons to tank. Not only did they say that, they also said if most dks were tanking with 1 handers, that they would step in to fix that.
You wouldn't happen to have a source would you? I'm not doubting you, I just never saw that post.
Originally Posted by Chemoshvt
I'm assuming the reason Blizzard hasn't put any of these weapons into the game is because the only class that could potentially use them are Death Knights. The issue I see is it's just one less item that we have any option to swap out to tank a high mitigation/avoidance required boss, such as Brutallus pre-nerf. Any fight that doesn't require exceedingly high threat (which is about everything up to tier 8 at this point) doesn't require threat weapons and stacking mitigation is ideal. We don't have that option unless we use two one handers.
I believe there was a Blizzard post (it may not have been, this is purely from vague memory) that said they wanted us to only focus on threat stats for our weapons, and leave defensive stats for our armor. You shouldn't have to look for a two-hander with +defense, parry, dodge, etc. You will get that from gear.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Our intent is for you to tank with two-handed dps weapons.
There is a mentality that says tanks should ignore dps and threat and just focus on mitigation. But bosses do have enrage timers. You can find some really smart warrior theorycrafters out there who say you should go for threat on your weapon and mitigation on your armor.
We don't to itemize DK two-handed tanking weapons for the reasons you mention. I have posted on the druid boards several times that I would love to get away from Feral Attack Power staves too.
Because we want dual-wielding to be viable for DKs, we aren't going to specifically prohibit you from tanking with two tanking swords. You will have to stack expertise to make up for boss parry attacks, and hit of course, which might mean you lose enough stats right there. I don't honestly know without doing the math.
Now if we find that all DKs dual-wield to tank, we'll do something about it, such as make the +parry rune enchants only work on two-handers to compensate for the lack of mitigation on two-handed weapons. That's not meant to be a threat. We just don't want every DK tank to DW (or every DK dps).
Oh yes, I completely understand that. What I think I see happening, though, is that some people are devising rotations as rotations instead of as depictions of the result of applying a series of decisions made over time. They are similar and generally will have similar results, but they are not identical unless you describe very long rotations such that all of the relevant cooldowns and durations align.
Consider a rotations where PS and IT appear once each. If that rotations is longer than a certain time, then there will clearly be disease downtime. If that rotation is shorter than a certain time then there will clearly be early refreshing and attendant clipping. The rotation is very good at showing you when exactly diseases will be up and down. The state machine is not good for this. In the example I gave there will probably be downtime, for example. However, what happens if you have to run away from the boss while he does a short range aoe? What do you do when you get back in range? A rotation handles this badly, whereas a state machine handles this easily. Both are useful, and I think both have their places.
Here's something specific to consider. Many pages back there was conversation about the efficacy of the scourge strike glyph. There were some resonable points back and forth and some hand waving each way, but nothing really conclusive came out. However I suspect that a lot of the problem was that the models being used were too rigid. They seemed basically to suggest that either you can skip PS, IT in your rotation or you can't and that the probability of skipping was low. However that's not necessarily true. It's also possible to delay your PS, IT a bit and essentially move it later in your rotation - it would swap with a scourge strike. The correct behavior with a state machine is much clearly and can better help us figure out the value of scourge strike's glyph.
Actually, this idea has already been discussed in this thread and elsewhere (even on the beta WoW DK board)-- it's just that the concept wasn't referred to as a "state machine". Your list from a few posts back is actually pretty similar to the list of priorities I wrote for the DK dps compendium thread.
The point is, optimal dps and rotations is usually discussed in those terms because 1) spreadsheet modeling is far easier with a set rotation over a theoretically infinite fight duration, and 2) the optimal rotation is simply the way you would use the priority system under ideal conditions. In practice, obviously, anyone blindly following a rigid rotation won't do as well on most fights as someone who understands how their dps works and can make correct decisions in dynamic conditions. This is true for any class-- the consensus I've read in a number of threads points to dps rotations moving away from macros to a priority-type system.
As for the discussion on the scourge strike glyph, you're right that you can put your PS + IT later in the rotation, but that fact wasn't overlooked. Even in a priority system, the abilities you use in a ten second period are limited by what runes you have available. The point of using the scourge strike glyph is so that you can scourge strike freely without having to spend a UF on refreshing diseases. If, in any ten second period, you have to use PS + IT to refresh them, even if you've made this decision as part of your state machine model, you are gaining absolutely zero dps from the glyph for that duration. There is a minimal benefit to the glyph some of the time, to be sure. But from what I've observed, it requires you to babysit your disease cooldowns much more closely for a tiny benefit every few rotations, which isn't particularly worthwhile when you have other better glyph options for Unholy.
Diminishing returns kinda kills there being a permenant exact EP order. However it is pretty clear it goes
Defense (precap) > Dodge > Defense (postcap) > Parry for avoidance stats for dks. Armor I believe is not better than any of those in terms of pure TTL (maybe better than parry) though it does reduce spikes the best, so that gives it additional value.
Actually, no. Unless you can get all three avoidance stats in near-equal amounts, armor is better TTL-per-itemization-point. It's drastically better than a single avoidance stat.
11/10/08, 6:38 PM
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