Flamingcloud

Mmmm that isn't what the spreadsheet tells me. Defenders Code gives me a lower TTL than Rune of Repulsion, Repelling Charge, and Valor Medal of the First War, and two of those are a lower ilvl.

Edit: I ran the numbers through what wowwiki says the item budgeting is for armor value, and defender's code seems greatly under budgeted. Either that or the formula has changed.

 

kommon

After entering my 10/8/53 spec into the tanking spread sheet, why does the rotation have me death striking over Scourge striking? Is DS more dps and more tps, or is this a bug? I'm pretty confused on why I would even grab SS if I will not even be using it.

 

Tantlin

DS in a perfect situation would always do more TPS than SS, but that is with no overhealing, glyphed at a 100 RP. My spread sheet is not set up that way it accounts for at default for 50% overhealing, 50 average RP and DS gyphed and sometimes that will be better than SS. Though honestly I think the newest push of the spread sheet this is rarely the case.

Another issue is not all possible rotations are entered into the spread sheet as yet, so I that may be the problem as well.

 

SpaceDrake

Just checking, but the hit cap for specials (and two handers or single one-handers) remains 9%, correct? I'm seeing it reported as 14% elsewhere but I don't recall hearing about changes to boss hit.

 

Davia

"Elsewhere" is likely a discussion about Fury warriors.

 

Arkasi

I was thinking about misses earlier and something occurred to me, a missed rune regenerates in 1 second, faster than our global cooldown on abilities, correct? If this is so, then is hit really all that necessary? Think of it like this. A miss counts as zero for that global cooldown, then your hit counts for the normal(assuming it hits more on that later), giving you 50% dps for the duration. So let's consider special attacks, at max hit you do 100% of your dps, at no hit you do 91% of max hit, and 9% at half hit, so your get 95.5% of your theoretical dps. The same can be done for spells, 83% at full, 17% at half giving you 91.5% of your theoretic max dps.

This does not include repeated misses, but statistically speaking 3 or 4 misses in a row is fairly unlikely. It would probably take a bit of calculus to figure out the exact loss and I'm not sure the results would be particularly uselful.

So what are some thoughts? Did I mess up on the rune rules in the first place? Are 4.5% and 8.5% still huge differences in dps?

 

tzenes

except if that miss is an attack that applies a disease

 

Arkasi

True, disease application misses are by far the most costly. But you'd still keep trying (KT/D model), this would only put your diseases 2.5 seconds out of whack, meaning you'd still have 9.5 seconds to get all your attacks in before you need to reapply your diseases.

 

Malphayden

"Precisely. All I was saying is that we don't know enough yet to throw it out. Look how much weapon DPS and AP totals changed over the course of Burning Crusade. That being said, I've asked Illundai to change the Unholy Spec on our compendium thread to have 5/5 impurity and only 3/5 desecration, because I agree with your points... I'm just not 100% sure these will always be true."


I have always viewed Desecration as an all or nothing investment. As pointed out above, if you're only using PS every 20 secs, a 60% chance to proc once every 20 secs seems like a waste of 3 points to me. Am i missing something?

 

tzenes

I see you are familiar with my work.

OK, so you have the loss of dps from the miss of a disease (ie, 1 less disease tick), you have the loss of a gcd, plus the loss of whatever that ability is (which isn't a big deal because PS and IT don't do much).

But suppose you're in the 4xHS rotation and you miss the first IT?
Well now not only do you have to cast again, but you face either sacrificing a DC (because of GCD constraints) or pushing the entire rotation back further (which in the infinite case is a small total dps loss, but in the discrete case is going to cost you a HS). Since target life is discrete, it should be the equivalent of a HS loss (your last ability).

Consider a 5% increase that is up 60% of the time. Well then 60% of the time we have a 5% increase and 40% of the time we have a 0% increase.
.6*.05+.4*.0 = .03

a 3 point investment into desecration should be equivalent to reducing the bonus gained from it by 40%

 

Flamingcloud

The only reason to treat desecration as an all or nothing talent, is in some sort of pvp or blood glyph scenario. Unlike tanking, damage being random is not a serious problem.

 

Nacht

True, but in my opinion the talent would be better designed as a 100% chance to apply a 10/20/30/40/50% snare and 1/2/3/4/5% damage increase per talent point. But that's just because I like to know what I can rely on instead of depending on RNG.

 

dr_AllCOM3

Do I have any other benefit from Runic Power Mastery besides having 30 more max rune power? Do my spells do more damage or is this just a PvP talent?

DocsDK UI
Simulator

 

Flamingcloud

Um, you could get a longer DRW, harder hitting deathstrike(if glyphed) or slightly easier to maintain gargoyle. Overall it is a pretty bad talent though.

 

dr_AllCOM3

I thought so. That means we have 3 points we can put whereever we like in frost. I'll take the Frost Aura

DocsDK UI
Simulator

 

Zerath

*EDITTED for the thrice time*

Looking at this DK spreadsheet in the race column. I'm assuming those are base stat values, correct?

If that is true, humans have 5k *more* health base at 80? Am I reading this wrong because if that's true, my rolling a dwarf tonight won't happen. Humans are by far superior.

 

Rockers

Hehe nice, this is such a classical mathematical misconception. You can't just look at each special independently.

As DK you have hardly any GCDs to spare. So if you have to repeat your special attack, you actually replace the following one. If you miss a rune ability, then that rune will be ready one GCD later in the next rotation again. If you miss a RP ability, then the RP will just be lost. All this results in that special ability just being lost if you miss it.

On white attacks its pretty obvious, that misses are just lost. In addition you loose possible procs on auto attacks.

So in general 1% hit is more than 1% dps increase.

 

Hidden

Those values are way off, I *think* Humans are level 80 and the rest level 70 values.

 

• Zurm

The issue isn't as severe as you make it sound. First, blood is the only rotation that is particularly harsh, due to the primary strike being a one-rune ability. Second, it's already been stated its better to dump all remaining RP before starting a new rotation... usually this means that you will end up starting some rotations a little late. And in a rotation like unholy, you have PLENTY of buffer.

The only rune abilities that are genuinely truly lost are those based off death runes. If memory serves, missing a death rune strike puts the runes back to their old type (but still brings them off cooldown only 1 second later).

 

Zerath

Could we get a confirmation on this, please?

I want to go Dwarf badly.

 

CKaz

Had to chime in on this, as this is exactly why I keep wondering where the Pally is headed...

A Prot Pally not playing the MT can -
Blessing of Wisdom, Seal of Wisdom, *possibly* judgement of wisdom (nerfed, and may want JoL), Divine Plea @71
Still so much is AoE for a Pally and this nerfs OT damage further, and w/o BoSanc you won't be spamming anything

It just seems to get 'funny' single target... I get that the rage dependant need attention too, but they generally have tools they've been using, and don't seem to need the mob focus a Paladin needs. Particularly if *they* got BoSanc. Lol. You notice this throughout your career... you can't handle casters too well, you can't 'spike' single targets down, and to be efficient you need to try to [keep] gathering as much as possible, which isn't always going to be doable/the best thing solo/instance/raid.

Mana mobs in Outlands were a good example of shutdown... AFAIK there's no similiarity with other tanks to the degree mana drains and silences/stuns can utterly shut us down. At times it was just outlast with white damage... yuck. I get we're not going to be ideal in all cases, but interrupt/stun, pulls and movement in battle seem the worse here. I really enjoy my Pally, but I wonder what he's in for in WotLK.

 

Cabal

And what´s stopping you? It´s quite obvious there would NEVER be a 5000 hp disparity between races, thats just ludicrous.

 

Severos

I have been reading this thread for a while, I have been creating different lists for raiding dps gear comparisons.

I might have missed this but does anyone have the relative weight for the meta gem:

Chaotic Skyflare Diamond

or the set bonuses from

Valorous Scourgeborne Battleplate

Heroes' Scourgeborne Battleplate

Thanks.

 

• Zurm

Depends on spec, but I'm pretty sure the Chaotic is better than the agi/crit bonus meta. And the set bonuses on T7 are amazing for frost and unholy, and still helpful for blood (though I think the consensus is that blood can afford to look for off-set plate gear.

 

Severos

Yes, I am doing a item comparision breakdown for all three specs listed in the compendium. In fact, I have been doing some number crunching on the items and agility seems the wild card at the moment (especially since most rings have agility)... and I don't have a really accurate model yet for trinkets.