WotLK Discussion - Talents and abilities. - Page 23

Lamaros · 07/22/08, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by rhea

My suggestion only has the options
3/2/1, 3/1/2;
1/3/2, 2/3/1;
1/2/3, 2/1/3;
2/2/2

It would be quite "simple" to balance (never is) because you can assume a maximum 3 of one rune type and the trade off is one less of another type. Not That off-balancing in my opinion.

When balancing an ability that uses 2 Blood, you have 3 options:
3 blood runes, the player might use it with 1 another blood ability and either 1 unholy or 1 frost ability.
2 of all runes, the player might use it with what ever frost and unholy ability but not another blood.
1 blood rune, not usable.

Skills and abilities do not exist in isolation.

Your idea has 7 variables instead of one and would be a nightmare to balance. Once balanced it would most likely be a nightmare for players to intiutivly discover a spec and rune formation which is 'balanced' and instead founder in some rune formation which is 'balanced' around a different spec or rune usage.

"Blood Strike sucks!" a player might say only for the response to be "Well year, it's useless in a 2/3/1 system and weak in a 2/2/2 system because we balanced it around 3/1/2. Oh, and you need to have Blood Rune Mastrey and Imp Plague Strike too, otherwise that rune formation is gimped." That is not good design.

Captain Keeez · 07/22/08, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by mrboh

For comparison, here are some DPS statistics generated by Hex. All builds are at level 80 wearing Warrior T6/Sunwell gear, hit capped at 9%, and fully raid buffed/debuffed with level 70 values. 'Plague Strike x 0.5' means Plague Strike is cast every second rotation, etc. DW is dual-wielding. Target is boss with 11110 AC (equivalent at level 80 to 7770 AC at level 70). All rune configurations are 2/2/2 courtesy of the recent announcement.

Blood (52/0/19) :: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Rotation: Degeneration x 2, Obliterate x 2, Death Coil x 2
DPS (2H): 3407.1 (Blood Presence)
DPS (DW): 3019.2 (Blood Presence)

With that spec/rotation would it not be more beneficial to put 2 points into Improved Death Coil instead of Epidemic? There dosn't seme to be a need for an extra 6 seconds on a 21 second disease if you are using Obliterate, as it removes all diseases. Also, would you be using Dancing Rune Blade or just using death coils to eat all of your RP?

Illundai · 07/22/08, 3:43 PM

Why would you Obliterate twice in a row in that rotation? You only get the benefit from Degeneration once, as it doesn't stack anymore.
Wouldn't it be better to do Degeneration, Bloodstrike, Obliterate, Degeneration?

Captain Keeez · 07/22/08, 3:46 PM

I was thinking that to, but maybe he means 1 rotation = Degeneration, Obliterate, Death coil, Degeneration, obliterate, Death coil?

Illundai · 07/22/08, 3:52 PM

You can't Deathcoil after only performing Degeneration -> Obliterate. You don't have enough runic power.

Captain Keeez · 07/22/08, 3:56 PM

Good point. I also think Dancing Rune Blade should be used, its a 100% damage increase and it will last for 18 seconds if your not using any abilities while its up. Probaly could keep it up for a good 25 seconds.

Illundai · 07/22/08, 4:14 PM

Actually, Dancing Rune Weapon doesn't do 100% the same damage as you. It seems to have a penalty, or perhaps just doesn't have the same ATP/crit as you - it seems to be doing half of my damage atm.

Captain Keeez · 07/22/08, 4:22 PM

Oh, didn't know that. Wish I had a beta key..... So is it not worth taking then? So the point can be put into unholy instead. Also, whats your opinion on Blood Aura for raiding? Alot of people are saying it will be nesecary, but the healing from blood presence seems so little its not worth the 2 points.

Illundai · 07/22/08, 4:29 PM

It's actually quite a bit of healing. It's hard to tell whether it'll be worth it without actually testing it in a raid, though. As for DRW, I'm not using it a whole lot while levelling at least. Might be different for raiding; I think you're better off spamming Deathcoil, though.

Captain Keeez · 07/22/08, 4:41 PM

What do you think of this spec then?
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator
I'll have to think up a new rotation with the removal of rune configuration though, give me a few mins.

Captain Keeez · 07/22/08, 4:47 PM

Was thinking of Degenerate -> Plague Strike -> Blood Strike -> Icy Touch (for a lack of something else for frost runes, and for death runes) -> Death Coil, repeat, what do you think? Also Death Coil on Sudden Doom procs and extra Blood Strikes if death rune comes up or blood rune mastery procs.

Illundai · 07/22/08, 4:48 PM

That's exactly what I'm using to level at the moment, except I bloodtap every minute so I can do Blood Strike twice.

Captain Keeez · 07/22/08, 4:53 PM

Just fixed the link on the spec, accidentaly linked a blank one. What do you think of it for raid dps though? I'd like to get some data on dancing rune blade vs death coil spam to. How long does it take you to get to full runic power on your DK?

Illundai · 07/22/08, 5:09 PM

Yeah, that's the spec I was thinking about too; although I'd love to get Imp Plague Strike in...

It takes me perhaps 2 rotations to get full runic power, maybe a little longer (if I don't Death Coil, obviously).

rooj · 07/22/08, 5:22 PM

A couple of basic questions.

1) Would we expect to have different gear for the different specs?
2) Do diseases get bonuses from spellpower? (such as bloodcaked blade?)
3) Even with the unholy talent Impurities should we expect to see spellpower on plate in order to be effective tanks/dps?

Captain Keeez · 07/22/08, 5:25 PM

Currently the gear Blizz has set up for DKs does not have spell damage, and I wouldn't expect it to as all of our spells scale with attack power.

Captain Keeez · 07/22/08, 5:27 PM

Going to have to test out a spec with improved plague strike instead of dirge. See if the 10% extra plague strike damage outweighs the extra death coils.

tzenes · 07/22/08, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Illundai

Yeah, that's the spec I was thinking about too; although I'd love to get Imp Plague Strike in...

It takes me perhaps 2 rotations to get full runic power, maybe a little longer (if I don't Death Coil, obviously).

Does it require full RP before use? or can you still use it at an arbitrary %?

Based on this equation: NetDamage = RP/100 * BaseDMG + AttackPower * APC
it makes sense to use it at lower amounts if possible.

Pyros · 07/22/08, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by rooj

A couple of basic questions.

1) Would we expect to have different gear for the different specs?
2) Do diseases get bonuses from spellpower? (such as bloodcaked blade?)
3) Even with the unholy talent Impurities should we expect to see spellpower on plate in order to be effective tanks/dps?

Well tanking gear and DPS gear obviously. There's no spellpower on plate for DPS purposes, because the DK(and ret pallys) get a direct AP>spellpower conversion. Check a wiki or something you want exact numbers. Everything as far as I could see seems affected by spellpower/ap.

For Blood aura, I'm not sure it'll be that good. While you produce a lot of healing while leveling, or even instances, on a normal spank and tank boss fight(without tons of adds I mean), you don't heal all that much. 4% from the presence and erm... 10% of your health every minute from rune tap? That's it pretty much if you're not tanking, or maybe I'm forgetting something. It's constant healing, but not much of it, so doubt it'll be useful but on evry specific fights where everyone takes damage all the time.

Illundai · 07/22/08, 5:41 PM

You can use DRW at any Runic Power level.

Septus · 07/22/08, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Pyros

Well tanking gear and DPS gear obviously. There's no spellpower on plate for DPS purposes, because the DK(and ret pallys) get a direct AP>spellpower conversion. Check a wiki or something you want exact numbers. Everything as far as I could see seems affected by spellpower/ap.

For Blood aura, I'm not sure it'll be that good. While you produce a lot of healing while leveling, or even instances, on a normal spank and tank boss fight(without tons of adds I mean), you don't heal all that much. 4% from the presence and erm... 10% of your health every minute from rune tap? That's it pretty much if you're not tanking, or maybe I'm forgetting something. It's constant healing, but not much of it, so doubt it'll be useful but on evry specific fights where everyone takes damage all the time.

I'd think sudden doom would create a lot of high health-returning death coils to be shared to your party.

rooj · 07/22/08, 5:49 PM

Isn't Lichborne extremely good and hard to pass up on raid encounters?

1) It is a complete immunity to fear and sleep effects.
2) And the 25% to miss melee seems incredibly good for melee bosses.

Granted a 5 minute cooldown is highish, but 30 second effect is pretty strong as well, especially since it doesn't come with any sideeffects.

And the Anti-Magic Zone seems incredible.

It seems as if Frost and Unholy make t he best tanking specs (with unbreakable armor, and Anti magic/lichborn etc).

I apologize if this shows my general ignorance of tanking, but isn't parry the one avoidance stat most tanks want to avoid since it causes the mob to increase attack speed? And wouldn't this also mean that blood is not a good tanking spec?

Pyros · 07/22/08, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by Septus

I'd think sudden doom would create a lot of high health-returning death coils to be shared to your party.

It's still 4% of the damage you do, whatever talent you use and whatever your dps is. Obviously higher dps will give higher healing, but still at a 4% rate, which isn't a lot.

Originally Posted by rooj

Isn't Lichborne extremely good and hard to pass up on raid encounters?

1) It is a complete immunity to fear and sleep effects.
2) And the 25% to miss melee seems incredibly good for melee bosses.

Granted a 5 minute cooldown is highish, but 30 second effect is pretty strong as well, especially since it doesn't come with any sideeffects.

And the Anti-Magic Zone seems incredible.

It seems as if Frost and Unholy make t he best tanking specs (with unbreakable armor, and Anti magic/lichborn etc).

I apologize if this shows my general ignorance of tanking, but isn't parry the one avoidance stat most tanks want to avoid since it causes the mob to increase attack speed? And wouldn't this also mean that blood is not a good tanking spec?

Lichborne is excelent for tanking, for DPSing not so much. Even then for tanking it can be skipped, it's a 5mins cooldown, at best you'll use it twice during a raid boss fight, which isn't all that much. Guess it can be useful if your priests miss a fear ward, but you'd probably use a prot war if you were to tank a fear based fight.

Yes Unholy and Frost make the best main spec, but you want Blood to complete them(so 2 different spec, unholy/blood and frost/blood), at least in my opinion. You're a bit wrong with parry, what happens is when the boss parries you, he resets his swing time(thus the don't attack from front stuff). But if you parry, it resets your swing timer(higher threat). So parry is very good, and without a shield it's somewhat the main type of avoidance for DKs. Going with Deflection would probably be quite hard, and Spell Deflection is very good in a spell tanker unholy/blood build.

Valderen · 07/22/08, 5:56 PM

Another thing about Dancing Rune Blade...it does the same "attack" you do...but it can miss, be parried or dodge regardless of what your actual attack does...it's critical is also independant of yours.

At least it did in alpha, haven't used it in beta yet.

Septus · 07/22/08, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Pyros

It's still 4% of the damage you do, whatever talent you use and whatever your dps is. Obviously higher dps will give higher healing, but still at a 4% rate, which isn't a lot.

Whooops, I keep thinking that death coil heals the death knight as well.