WotLK Discussion - Talents and abilities. - Page 55

Deathwing · 08/14/08, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by P51mus

When you can dual wield, and you have nothing in the offhand, I thought you punch with the offhand instead of not attack at all? And the mod would record those punches as hits, no? Or am I wrong about this?

I remember a while ago near the beginning of WoW when some rogues thought that dual wielding penalty applied to skills as well, and would use some kind of "held in offhand" item to turn dual wielding off. I think, anyway, could be remembering wrong.

And has a baseline test been done with a two hander?

That was a LONG time ago. 1H/Unarmed would still punch with the OH but it would bypass the DW miss rate. That has been fixed.

Prepared · 08/14/08, 6:33 PM

Alright, here's the same test with my 3.5 speed sword. Again, white damage first, BCB second:

Disargeria · 08/14/08, 7:52 PM

12% for this test. I guess it's PPM based, but is that intended and the tooltip wrong?

Rebellion · 08/14/08, 8:23 PM

Because of the weird wording on the tooltip, could you test how it scales with diseases ? From the toolttip it looks like w.dmg*0,5*x where x is the number of diseases. This would mean that 1 disease does not have any effect, am I right here ? As for the w.dmg it looks like its the ap-scaled version unlike that strange behaviour of Necrosis.

Feorthas · 08/14/08, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by Rebellion

Because of the weird wording on the tooltip, could you test how it scales with diseases ? From the toolttip it looks like w.dmg*0,5*x where x is the number of diseases. This would mean that 1 disease does not have any effect, am I right here ? As for the w.dmg it looks like its the ap-scaled version unlike that strange behaviour of Necrosis.

The tooltip almost certainly means "additional damage"; 0 diseases will do base, 1 disease will do +50%, 2 diseases will start at an additional 100%, etc.

Rebellion · 08/14/08, 9:42 PM

Originally Posted by Feorthas

The tooltip almost certainly means "additional damage"; 0 diseases will do base, 1 disease will do +50%, 2 diseases will start at an additional 100%, etc.

Well, the tooltip on mmo chamipion says: "Your autoattacks have a 15% chance to cause a Blood-Caked Strike, which hits for 50% weapon damage times the number of your diseases on the target." As for the wording it looks like the first disease does not count. It might be to make it less appealing for blood while keep it balanced for unholy. Two of these procs can be kind of nasty (assuming that 2 diseases = 150% weapon dmg) when you consider non-crit weapon dmg around 700-800 per swing at the moment. Let it crit and procc twince in a row and you have like 4k to 5k dmg in less than 4 seconds without using a single ability.

Assuming that 4 diseases = 250% weapon dmg, my cloth wearing toons already moan in pain.

Edit: Ah I forogt to factor in the weapon dmg, well I guess you get the idea. I'd like some clarification on this one, still.

Prepared · 08/14/08, 10:40 PM

I suppose testing that wouldn't be too hard. I just need to see how dedicated I am to mashing Icy Touch every 10 seconds or so for a half hour. XD

Disargeria · 08/14/08, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Prepared

I suppose testing that wouldn't be too hard. I just need to see how dedicated I am to mashing Icy Touch every 10 seconds or so for a half hour. XD

Spec for Icy Talons and get your 1k strikes in 20% faster.

Prepared · 08/15/08, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Disargeria

Spec for Icy Talons and get your 1k strikes in 20% faster.

I actually spec'd into Bloodworms, so I don't have that much wiggle room, and wouldn't like... well, die. (And, also not have to Death Strike in the rotation.)

So, here's the data with one and then two diseases.

w/Icy Touch, two-handed, white damage

w/Icy Touch, two-handed, BCB damage

w/Icy Touch and Plague Strike, two-handed, white damage

w/Icy Touch and Plague Strike, two-handed, BCBdamage

nevinera · 08/15/08, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Prepared

I actually spec'd into Bloodworms, so I don't have that much wiggle room, and wouldn't like... well, die. (And, also not have to Death Strike in the rotation.)

So, here's the data with one and then two diseases.

w/Icy Touch, two-handed, white damage

Looks pretty clearly like Base/2 * (#diseases + 1)?

Prepared · 08/15/08, 3:36 AM

The thing that disappoints me the most about it, really, is how low my total damage from BCB is, given the fact I'm not doing a full-on rotation, which would mean more damage on yellow attacks such as Oblit and Strikes, not to mention DRW or DC.

Here is the crappy spec I used during testing: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I guess if you manage an additional disease, it might end up being worth it, but eh.

Edit: Just tried the same tests, but going for a Death Strike after my diseases are put up in the rotation, and instead of bloodworms going Imp. Icy Talons... but it doesn't appear to be granting the buff? -_-

• Chicken · 08/15/08, 5:06 AM

Icy Talons does work, it just doesn't show up as a buff. Check your attack speed in your character window after using Icy Touch, you'll notice it's faster than it should be. Though last I checked Icy Talons was only providing 15% haste, not 20% haste like it's tooltip says.

Rebellion · 08/15/08, 5:44 AM

Thank you for the clarification, I know how boring it is to smash some npc skulls for more than 15 minutes. As for the tooltip , I guess it is wrong in both that it has a 15% proc chance and the wording about its disease-scaling. I have to say that I'm kind of impressed by it, though. For just 3 talent points you get like an additional 15% white dmg. Even more as unholy.

Cabal · 08/15/08, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by Rebellion

Well, the tooltip on mmo chamipion says: "Your autoattacks have a 15% chance to cause a Blood-Caked Strike, which hits for 50% weapon damage times the number of your diseases on the target." As for the wording it looks like the first disease does not count. It might be to make it less appealing for blood while keep it balanced for unholy. Two of these procs can be kind of nasty (assuming that 2 diseases = 150% weapon dmg) when you consider non-crit weapon dmg around 700-800 per swing at the moment. Let it crit and procc twince in a row and you have like 4k to 5k dmg in less than 4 seconds without using a single ability.

Assuming that 4 diseases = 250% weapon dmg, my cloth wearing toons already moan in pain.

Edit: Ah I forogt to factor in the weapon dmg, well I guess you get the idea. I'd like some clarification on this one, still.

And how is this different from simultaneous main hand WF procs, for example?

Rebellion · 08/15/08, 10:12 AM

I'm not quire sure what you mean by "simultanelous main hand WF procs". Do you talk about a dual wielding shaman here? My example was about 2h weapons, it was made up and showed a extreme situation most cloth wearers might find "disturbing", to say the least. I will enjoy the talent as a decent PvE boost, but it just looks a bit off in some PvP cases.

Als for 2h and windfury. I thought about that, but this no longer works for other classes than shamans (new windfury totem) and to be honest I forgot about shamans beeing able to wield 2H weapons, as you rarely see one these days in arena. A Dk - depending on the situation - can pump out up to two Obliterate in this timeframe along with the 4k -5k (well 6k -7k in even more extreme cases), while a shaman has 1xshock & 1x Stormstrike. Im not familiar with the shaman changes but this was based on the assumption of current arena gear in a wotlk enviroment.

Well I was mixing up wotlk stuff based on level 70 experience, but for me it looked like blizzard wanted less of that random burst when they changed the wf totem, though this change might be entirely based on PvE this time (finally

)

Edit: Something that fits more into this DK topic:
Are all strikes of the DK normalized based on this formula at the moment ?

norm.dmg = base.weap.dmg + (X * AP / 14) [x -> 2.4 for 1H // 3.3 for 2H ]

I remember 1 or 2 beta builds ago that obliterate for example wasn't normalized.

Prepared · 08/15/08, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rebellion

Thank you for the clarification, I know how boring it is to smash some npc skulls for more than 15 minutes. As for the tooltip , I guess it is wrong in both that it has a 15% proc chance and the wording about its disease-scaling. I have to say that I'm kind of impressed by it, though. For just 3 talent points you get like an additional 15% white dmg. Even more as unholy.

That's right. I didn't even figure that part, I was just looking at the number of strikes.

2 diseases, 14.1% of white damage
1 disease, 7.6% of white damage
0 diseases, 6.1% of white damage

It seems that two diseases are the minimum for getting the most out of the skill. I'm going to try again tonight with Crypt Fever to see what happens there.

Also, going to retry the one with no diseases again, to see if Icy Talons is indeed working, because my character sheet still shows 3.5 speed, and just counting in my head I still seem to be attacking slow... but I'm not using any mods to monitor my attack speed (which I could).

Can anyone recommend any good addon that's working in Wrath to monitor procs? I just realized I was missing that from my DW testing

Cabal · 08/15/08, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Rebellion

I'm not quire sure what you mean by "simultanelous main hand WF procs". Do you talk about a dual wielding shaman here? My example was about 2h weapons, it was made up and showed a extreme situation most cloth wearers might find "disturbing", to say the least. I will enjoy the talent as a decent PvE boost, but it just looks a bit off in some PvP cases.

Als for 2h and windfury. I thought about that, but this no longer works for other classes than shamans (new windfury totem) and to be honest I forgot about shamans beeing able to wield 2H weapons, as you rarely see one these days in arena. A Dk - depending on the situation - can pump out up to two Obliterate in this timeframe along with the 4k -5k (well 6k -7k in even more extreme cases), while a shaman has 1xshock & 1x Stormstrike. Im not familiar with the shaman changes but this was based on the assumption of current arena gear in a wotlk enviroment.

Well I was mixing up wotlk stuff based on level 70 experience, but for me it looked like blizzard wanted less of that random burst when they changed the wf totem, though this change might be entirely based on PvE this time (finally

)

Edit: Something that fits more into this DK topic:
Are all strikes of the DK normalized based on this formula at the moment ?

norm.dmg = base.weap.dmg + (X * AP / 14) [x -> 2.4 for 1H // 3.3 for 2H ]

I remember 1 or 2 beta builds ago that obliterate for example wasn't normalized.

You were apparently concerned about a "4-5k damage burst without any skills being used", right now if I proc windfury on my main hand, and they both crit, thats around 6.2k damage right there to clothies. This is while dual wielding, wanna take a wild guess how much it would be with a good 2hander (but innefective, since dual wield is superior for both PVE and PVP)?

Just thought id place your concerns in perspective there.

Bristine · 08/15/08, 11:30 AM

Is Necrosis in any way amplified by Spell Power, or modified with AP to your weapon's damage or is it still just base weapon damage?

Quartz is good for that, but I have no beta key, so I couldn't tell you if it is working or not.

Can be found here

Cabal · 08/15/08, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Bristine

Is Necrosis in any way amplified by Spell Power, or modified with AP to your weapon's damage or is it still just base weapon damage?

Quartz is good for that, but I have no beta key, so I couldn't tell you if it is working or not.

Can be found here

As far as I know, none of the DK spells scale with spell power, they use attack power for that.

Also, how will a casting bar replacement help with finding anything about necrosis?

Prepared · 08/15/08, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Cabal

As far as I know, none of the DK spells scale with spell power, they use attack power for that.

Also, how will a casting bar replacement help with finding anything about necrosis?

I think the Quartz suggestion was for me, as it has an optional bar that indicates weapon swings graphically, and adjusts based on haste effects (like WF, Bloodlust, etc.)

I had forgotten about it, but I use it on my Paladin on live, so "dur" on my end. :B

Pyros · 08/15/08, 11:58 AM

He meant quartz for icy talons, would show the autoattack bar. You can just do a specific testing spec, and go deeper in frost, when I checked frost out, imp icy talons at least had an icon, so I assumed it worked.

As for normalized attacks, I believe only frost strike wasn't normalized due to a bug with elemental attacks not being able to be normalized or whatever. Oblit I'm not sure, I just think it was double dipping in various blood talents, and might still be. How would you go about testing if stuff is normalized anyway, wouldn't that require a quite big sample with 2-3different AP values? Btw same question about spellpower coeff on spells, how do you calculate them? Might feel like running some tests afk, but not sure how to get results out of the samples, since I'm terrible with math. There must be a simple equation for both, right?

Prepared · 08/15/08, 12:16 PM

From the WoWwiki:

Currently, the normalized weapon damage for instant attacks is:
normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14)

where X is:

    * 1.7 for daggers
    * 2.4 for other one-handed weapons
    * 3.3 for two-handed weapons
    * 2.8 for ranged weapons
    * weapon speed for non-normalized attacks (see below) 

Certain instant attacks are affected: others are not.

I imagine a DK's strikes and such would be on the same system, but I'm not sure if I have enough gear to test that with, but I suppose I could test it with a flask or something. I only have about 1k AP in my grinding gear without trinkets or procs.

Is there some specific methodology to testing whether an attack is normalized? I'm hoping some of the Warrior or Rogue theorycrafters come across this, but I'll also try to dig around other, older threads to see if I can't find this info.

Deathwing · 08/15/08, 12:30 PM

Testing if an attack is normalized is easy, yet tedious because you have to collect a lot of data to rule out the randomness of the weapon's damage range. If you're weapon is normalized, your AP will contribute to the attack as you mentioned above. If it is not, it will use the weapon's base speed. So, the best way to determine this is find a weapon with a base speed that deviates from the normalization constant the most.

The second option is if you know the target's armor or have a good idea on how much it will reduce your attack, you can calculate it much quicker. Take a weapon that is slower than the normalization constant, then calculate your weapon's maximum regular hit IF it was normalized. Then, go beat on the target with that weapon. If any of the regular hits come out higher than your calculated max, it's not normalized!

As for Pyros' question about spells, they're a lot easier to calculate, especially because none of the DK spells have any damage range and monsters don't have unknown constant reduction to them. Just cast a spell with X amount of AP, then again with Y amount of AP. Since the equation's linear, you can figure out the AP coefficient from just two data points.

Prepared · 08/15/08, 12:47 PM

Sounds like it's time to go farm me a [The Blackrock Slicer]! Though in all honesty, it'd probably be easier for me to just go get a [Corpsemaker].

Then there will be lots and lots of striking.

Skulli · 08/15/08, 1:34 PM

Is it intended by obliterate to wipe all diseases (not only your ones).
Like if 2 dks are fighting one mob and i use my oblierate, it wipes all diseases, not just mine.
But when i wipe all, i only get benefit for my own diseases,
For pve with more than 1 dk it seems not intended that one dk can wipe all diseases.