WotLK Discussion - Talents and abilities. - Page 57

Lapp · 08/17/08, 12:10 AM

Hi, so I'm back--this time, I'm doing calculations with the correct rune cooldowns >.>

To me, it currently seems there's two possibilities for a rotation at 80--one using Death Strike in conjunction with Death Rune Mastery for a total of 6 HS, 1 OB, and 1 DS in a 21.5s rotation, and the other foregoing DS/DRM for a total of 4 HS and 3 OB per 21.5s rotation. Both specs are 51/13/7, which means 18 second diseases and that Obliterates do not remove them, and there is little difference between the specs--the first has 3 DRM, while the second has those 3 points spent into Rune Tap and maxing Bladed Armor.

The DS spec: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00000000000000

The no-DS spec: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...00000000000000

I've made a chart for each rotation, and the columns are structured like so: the first denotes the time, and the interval is a GCD (1.5s - I'm assuming 0 haste rating for this), except for twice during a rotation where you wait 2.5s, due to rune CDs being 10 seconds, which does not divide 1.5; the next denotes the skill being used at that GCD; the remainder of the columns denote which runes and how much runic power is available immediately before said skill is used (an available rune is denoted by 0.0, and an unvailable one is shown by the amount of time available until it activates, in seconds); for RP calculation, each used rune ability provides 10 RP, there's a gain of 1 RP / 2.5s from Butchery, DC costs 40 RP (there's been a blue post about it being reverted to 40 from the current 50), and DRW costs all of your RP, obviously.

Key:

IT - Icy Touch, PS - Plague Strike, DS - Death Strike, HS - Heart Strike, OB - Obliterate.
DC - Death Coil, DRW - Dancing Rune Weapon, -- is a free GCD which can be used to cast a Death Trance DC.
B - Blood, F - Frost, U - Unholy, RP - Runic Power.

A bolded GCD indicates a 2.5s interval from the previous; a bolded rune timer indicates that that rune is a Death rune.

Each chart goes through two iterations of the rotation (there's slight difference in how RP is used, seeing as DRW is on a minute cooldown).

Blood Rotation using DS
Time   Skill   B     B     F     F     U     U     RP
0.0     IT    0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0    0
1.5     PS    0.0   0.0   8.5   0.0   0.0   0.0    10
3.0     HS    0.0   0.0   7.0   0.0   8.5   0.0    21
4.5     HS    8.5   0.0   5.5   0.0   7.0   0.0    31
6.0     DS    7.0   8.5   4.0   0.0   5.5   0.0    42
7.5     --    5.5   7.0   2.5   8.5   4.0   8.5    53
9.0     --    4.0   5.5   1.0   7.0   2.5   7.0    53
11.5    OB    1.5   3.0   0.0   4.5   0.0   4.5    54
13.0    HS    0.0   1.5   8.5   3.0   8.5   3.0    65
14.5    HS    8.5   0.0   7.0   1.5   7.0   1.5    75
16.0    HS    7.0   8.5   5.5   0.0   5.5   0.0    86
17.5    HS    5.5   7.0   4.0   8.5   4.0   0.0    97
19.0    DRW   4.0   5.5   2.5   7.0   2.5   8.5    100
21.5    IT    1.5   3.0   0.0   4.5   0.0   6.0    1
23.0    PS    0.0   1.5   8.5   3.0   0.0   4.5    12
24.5    HS    0.0   0.0   7.0   1.5   8.5   3.0    22
26.0    HS    8.5   0.0   5.5   0.0   7.0   1.5    33
27.5    DS    7.0   8.5   4.0   0.0   5.5   0.0    44
29.0    DC    5.5   7.0   2.5   8.5   4.0   8.5    54
30.5    --    4.0   5.5   1.0   7.0   2.5   7.0    15
33.0    OB    1.5   3.0   0.0   4.5   0.0   4.5    16
34.5    HS    0.0   1.5   8.5   3.0   8.5   3.0    26
36.0    HS    8.5   0.0   7.0   1.5   7.0   1.5    37
37.5    HS    7.0   8.5   5.5   0.0   5.5   0.0    48
39.0    HS    5.5   7.0   4.0   8.5   4.0   0.0    58
40.5    DC    4.0   5.5   2.5   7.0   2.5   8.5    69
43.0    IT    1.5   3.0   0.0   4.5   0.0   6.0    30
...     ..    ...   ...   ...   ...   ...   ...    ..

Blood Rotation without DS
Time   Skill   B     B     F     F     U     U     RP
0.0     IT    0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0    0
1.5     PS    0.0   0.0   8.5   0.0   0.0   0.0    10
3.0     HS    0.0   0.0   7.0   0.0   8.5   0.0    21
4.5     HS    8.5   0.0   5.5   0.0   7.0   0.0    31
6.0     OB    7.0   8.5   4.0   0.0   5.5   0.0    42
7.5     --    5.5   7.0   2.5   8.5   4.0   8.5    53
9.0     --    4.0   5.5   1.0   7.0   2.5   7.0    53
11.5    OB    1.5   3.0   0.0   4.5   0.0   4.5    54
13.0    HS    0.0   1.5   8.5   3.0   8.5   3.0    65
14.5    HS    8.5   0.0   7.0   1.5   7.0   1.5    75
16.0    OB    7.0   8.5   5.5   0.0   5.5   0.0    86
17.5    --    5.5   7.0   4.0   8.5   4.0   8.5    97
19.0    DRW   4.0   5.5   2.5   7.0   2.5   7.0    97
21.5    IT    1.5   3.0   0.0   4.5   0.0   4.5    1
23.0    PS    0.0   1.5   8.5   3.0   0.0   3.0    12
24.5    HS    0.0   0.0   7.0   1.5   8.5   1.5    22
26.0    HS    8.5   0.0   5.5   0.0   7.0   0.0    33
27.5    OB    7.0   8.5   4.0   0.0   5.5   0.0    44
29.0    DC    5.5   7.0   2.5   8.5   4.0   8.5    54
30.5    --    4.0   5.5   1.0   7.0   2.5   7.0    15
33.0    OB    1.5   3.0   0.0   4.5   0.0   4.5    16
34.5    HS    0.0   1.5   8.5   3.0   8.5   3.0    26
36.0    HS    8.5   0.0   7.0   1.5   7.0   1.5    37
37.5    OB    7.0   8.5   5.5   0.0   5.5   0.0    48
39.0    DC    5.5   7.0   4.0   8.5   4.0   8.5    58
40.5    --    4.0   5.5   2.5   7.0   2.5   7.0    19
43.0    IT    1.5   3.0   0.0   4.5   0.0   4.5    20
...     ..    ...   ...   ...   ...   ...   ...    ..

The second rotation differs very minorly from the first (in terms of abilities used and rune cooldowns), so you shouldn't have any trouble understanding it if you got the first.

There are three main issues which concern me:

Are my charts sound and do they make sense? The way I've chosen to explain these rotations may not be the best way, but it paints a very detailed picture of the seamlessness of skill usage and rune cooldowns. I'll be happy to answer any questions if anyone's confused.
Which rotation would be better, then? The difference between them is that the first gets a Death Strike and 2 Heart Strikes, whereas the second gets 2 Obliterates. If I'm not mistaken, the latter should equal more damage, right? Plus, with the second you are able to have 2 more points into Bladed Armor (slightly more AP) and the situationally useful Rune Tap; though the first gets healing from DS every 21.5s.
When to use rune-costing cooldowns such as Hysteria, Mark of Blood, and if the second spec, Rune Tap?

Thanks for reading, and an early apology if all the numbers made anyone's head hurt D:

Pyros · 08/17/08, 2:21 AM

Not gonna check the rotations themselves since I don't really care much about Blood, but things I can comment on:
In current build, deathstrike and 2heartstrikes should outdamage 2oblits. They said they're aware of it though and are probably going to boost oblit again.

The healing is probably a non factor, since it's not constant healing, or not even healing often. Also, death strike doesn't seem to work with blood aura, so it's only really self healing. Rune tap is just as bad in efficiency imo, definitely not a big fan of it.

Now on to build selection, I think 3points in imp icy touch instead of toughness would provide higher dps, 3points in toughness might add 15-25AP, not sure would need to check with lvl 80 values and so on. Why no blood rune mastery though? I understand why you don't take it in a tanking build for blade barrier procs, but in a DPS build, having more blood runes won't hurt, at worst you'll have blood runes sitting there doing nothing while going through your rotation, and if they pop at the right moment you can just add heartstrikes in?

As for your question about when to use long cooldowns, it's situational, depends on the fight. You'd use Hysteria in conjunction with a rogue, when he burns his own cooldowns. Same for Mark of Blood, you use it during a "tough" healing part in the fight, such as last 20% during a frenzy. Rest of the time, you just fit them whenever you can in the rotation to get the most out of them, so mark of blood probably on pull. But in case you didn't know, they changed their cost to 1B, so you can use them anytime you feel like in your rotations instead of a heartstrike.

Lapp · 08/17/08, 4:52 AM

Oh wow, I didn't notice that change. Thanks for pointing that out. It would make sense then to get Blood Rune Mastery and hopefully you get a proc around one of those free GCD periods for an extra HS or Hysteria/Mark of Blood, or just use those CDs in place of an HS when appropriate. With them costing 1b and 1u, they were just way too rotation-disrupting.

As for the frost tree first tier--yeah, that could be a possibility. It's a nitpicky and small difference that we can't quite figure out at this moment; not to say it's insignificant, but it's definitely minor and by the time it matters we'll know with which to go with. The main purpose of my post was the theory of the actual rotation :P

Prepared · 08/17/08, 2:58 PM

@Pyros: Does Bladed Armor really scale with Toughness? I thought, from what I observed, it was only your base armor value from items, minus any enchants, kits, or talents. I know for a fact my AP doesn't budge when I switch into Frost Presence...

• Chicken · 08/17/08, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Prepared

@Pyros: Does Bladed Armor really scale with Toughness? I thought, from what I observed, it was only your base armor value from items, minus any enchants, kits, or talents. I know for a fact my AP doesn't budge when I switch into Frost Presence...

Bladed Armor's attack power contribution gets checked very irregularly. It's only checked once every 30 to 60 seconds, so it takes a while after switching to Frost Presence, or after swapping gear, for it's AP contribution to appear.

My guess is it's a bug.

Prepared · 08/17/08, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

Bladed Armor's attack power contribution gets checked very irregularly. It's only checked once every 30 to 60 seconds, so it takes a while after switching to Frost Presence, or after swapping gear, for it's AP contribution to appear.

My guess is it's a bug.

I suppose that's worth reporting, as I hadn't thought to check it periodically!

Cross · 08/17/08, 3:56 PM

Has anyone done any tests to see how a Deep Unholy DPS build would do? Most of the tests being done seem to be blood but the Unholy tree interests me a more. It would assume gargoyle every time its up, blight everytime its up, and perma-ghoul for more pet added dps.

I'm was planning something like this for a dps spec. (subtract 1 point from icy talons and 2 points from outbreak for lvl 77 testing probably)

Zurai · 08/17/08, 4:19 PM

You're going to need 3/3 Subversion for a DPS build - Death Knights have no other means to reduce their threat, unless you want to count Shadow of Death. I would also suggest not bothering with Impurity (as it currently functions, it's 125% of the existing modifier, which works out to less than +5% damage on every spell except Death Coil), getting at least one point in Wandering Plague (it works out to something like a 12-15% dps boost to your disease damage per point), getting Anti-Magic Zone for raid utility (you need to put those 5 from Impurity somewhere anyway...). I've not been very impressed by the ghoul's DPS, so I'd also forgo Night of the Dead. This is the build I'm using currently in the beta (minus the points in Subversion and two in Icy Talons since I'm only 75 and have free respecs for instances). It feels just as quick to kill mobs while questing as Blood does, but I havn't done any actual testing to confirm that.

PhoenixVynna · 08/17/08, 7:21 PM

Anyone else finding that blacksmithing is quite-obviously the way to go?

Metasocket for armorsmith
Sockets for weapons on weaponsmith

Extra socket for glove, bracer.
That's between 3 and 4 additional sockets, or 2 and 1 meta socket.

Am I correct in that the blacksmithing sockets, aside from the belt, are unique to the blacksmith, and that the sockets are additional to the current sockets (and not that they only work on non-socketable gloves/bracers).

I mean that's a minimum of 3 sockets... with blue gems, that's 16str 3x, or 24stam 3x. Is there a single profession that can offer 72 stamina, or 48 stat/rating and 96attack power?
Ignoring the BOP items which may or may not be worthwhile (but certainly can be a basis for gearing up pre-raiding), you simply outstat every other profession with this... and that's before you even get epic gems... which add another 18/12 stats to the value (90stam, 60other).

It seems like an easy decision, potentially for every class.

Or were those in an earlier beta patch and no longer are current?...

Lanlaorn · 08/17/08, 7:37 PM

getting at least one point in Wandering Plague (it works out to something like a 12-15% dps boost to your disease damage per point),

Can you clarify for me please what you mean by this? Does the talent proc extra damage even when DPSing a single target or do you just mean AoE damage situations are plentiful in instances, etc.? Although I'm fairly sure you just meant the latter, I never considered the former when doing some quick DK DPS math and it would be pretty cool if that's how the talent worked.

Zurai · 08/17/08, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by Lanlaorn

Can you clarify for me please what you mean by this? Does the talent proc extra damage even when DPSing a single target or do you just mean AoE damage situations are plentiful in instances, etc.? Although I'm fairly sure you just meant the latter, I never considered the former when doing some quick DK DPS math and it would be pretty cool if that's how the talent worked.

It procs even in single-target situations, and it double dips on damage bonuses. In other words, if you have Ebon Plague up on a mob and your initial disease does a base 100 damage, the disease tick would do 113 damage and the Wandering Plague proc would do 127.69. If Crypt Fever works on it (ie, if it counts as disease damage, which is possible but not possible to test right now thanks to Crypt Fever not working), WP will do obscene amounts of damage. Diseases tick for about 300 pre-CF right now. With CF working, that'd be 480/tick, with Wandering Plague procs easily reaching 1000.

Pyros · 08/17/08, 8:38 PM

Wandering does proc on single target, it does pretty low damage sadly though. It's still a good boost for 1point.

As for smithing, will probably be a must for tanks, at release at least. With the crafted epic gear it provides and the new socket bonus, it should give the biggest bonus out of every tradeskill for a tank. Probably have enchanting/JC/inscription as secondary, depending on how they work out.

Zurai · 08/17/08, 8:55 PM

Originally Posted by Pyros

Wandering does proc on single target, it does pretty low damage sadly though. It's still a good boost for 1point.

The reason WP's damage seems so low this build is that it's resisting an abnormally high amount of time. I have yet to see a single proc get less than a 50% resist rate.

Pyros · 08/17/08, 9:01 PM

Been that way since last build, and maybe the one before, been some time since I last saw it working(and since it's been so long I'm not even sure it was working fine). Once they fix it it should prove to be sick DPS though, especially in any AE situations, even 2 targets.

Zurai · 08/17/08, 9:06 PM

Ah, I hadn't noticed it before this latest patch. It'll definitely be crazy for AOE - I remember at the start of beta when Death and Decay was a disease, combining D&D with Wandering Plague meant that the more mobs you gathered, the quicker the entire group would die (thanks to more WP procs hitting every creature). Now you have to rely on Pestilence and Unholy Blight to spread diseases to packs, so it won't be quite as good, but it still scales rapidly with multiple diseased targets.

SuperDyu · 08/18/08, 12:29 AM

It seems that wandering plague is still primarily for increased aggro generation and dps very large aoe pulls. with 30% in it, and unholy blight if you're doing a farmer style of pulling 20 mobs at once, the increase in dmg across the board would be significant to say the least.

Pull them all together with unholy pesence (spec'd with run bonus), gather them up, go frost presence focus on plague strike and other disease hitters on a single mob, once you have enough runic power, hit death and decay, continue with strikes, hit unholy blight, and continue on. If grouped and you got enough aggro (reasonably) go blood presence to help keep yourself up (among other abilities)

Very rough, but seems like it would allow large scale weenie tanking with ease. For stronger mob fighting it seems like Frost Presence with howling blast would be a better option.

Lanlaorn · 08/18/08, 6:00 AM

Thanks for the information guys, as things stand now I'm definitely going to play an Unholy tank DK for WotLK, Bone Shield looks absolutely ridiculous and their AoE tanking power will rvial, or even surpass, that of Prot Pallies IMHO - while bringing good utility for casters and threat generation that doesn't require getting hit. A very solid choice at least for an OT and I could easily see being a guild's MT.

Another question though, is Anti-Magic Zone useful at all so far? I can see it being great for some gimmick fight (Kael, basically) but what do you guys think from having played with it? IMO that's 6 points that would probably be better off in aggro generation talents the vast majority of the time.

WiPe|Domin · 08/18/08, 7:47 AM

Originally Posted by Lanlaorn

Thanks for the information guys, as things stand now I'm definitely going to play an Unholy tank DK for WotLK, Bone Shield looks absolutely ridiculous and their AoE tanking power will rvial, or even surpass, that of Prot Pallies IMHO - while bringing good utility for casters and threat generation that doesn't require getting hit. A very solid choice at least for an OT and I could easily see being a guild's MT.

Another question though, is Anti-Magic Zone useful at all so far? I can see it being great for some gimmick fight (Kael, basically) but what do you guys think from having played with it? IMO that's 6 points that would probably be better off in aggro generation talents the vast majority of the time.

If anyone is interested how unholy aoe tanking works in Halls of Stones i frapsed a run i did with 3 guildies.

Halls_of_Stone_Dk_Tanking.wmv - FileFront.com

Ended up second on dmg meter for whole run, below retri pala and above aff lock.

Hearteater · 08/18/08, 10:40 AM

It appears they may be trying out having Blood Plague ticks remove HOTs instead of Plague/Scourge Strike. Anyone able to confirm? (Source)

Dimitryi · 08/18/08, 11:18 AM

How do you guys feel about Deep Blood spec tanking? I really haven't gotten a chance in beta to test tanking that much, but I'm potentially looking at a Deep Blood spec as a tank.

Arkady · 08/18/08, 11:39 AM

When I tank, I do it as deep blood using.this build..

I haven't run any tests or anything on it, so I don't have hard numbers, but what I can safely say is that it works fairly well in 5 mans, if nothing else. I don't have any problem holding single target threat over t6 dps, and haven't the entire time I've been levelling. My mitigation is fine, but I doubt it compares to unholy. AE threat is acceptable, but again not as good as unholy. Once pestilence starts working right again, should be no problem. Where I do feel blood wins out over unholy is single target threat gen. A deep blood build simply has better damage talents, most notably heart strike, and all of our threat comes from damage (except D&D, which is the only thing currently with the "high threat" descriptor).

That's just my feeling though. In the end, I still think unholy will end up the better tanking tree, barring a nerf to bone armor or a buff to vampiric blood. It is most certainly viable to do at least non heroic 5 mans as blood.

joe_in_hell · 08/18/08, 2:14 PM

I think they stated nonheroics should be tankable without any tanking talents.
Bone shield brings god migation but atleast while soloing i found it quite anoying to keep it up

Cabal · 08/18/08, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by joe_in_hell

I think they stated nonheroics should be tankable without any tanking talents.
Bone shield brings god migation but atleast while soloing i found it quite anoying to keep it up

It´s not more annoying than say something like water shield... Bone shield is amazing.

joe_in_hell · 08/18/08, 5:08 PM

It costs an unholy rune, which could be used for your main attacks scourge/oblit, not just some gc.

Dangasaur · 08/18/08, 6:27 PM

I rolled a DK to level 59 over the weekend. Here are my thoughts:

-I'm very impressed with the quest chain leading to lights hope, simply the best chain I've seen in WoW.
-lots of new DKs rolling with me, though quests seem very manageable and I don't have to really wait for anything
-Class starts out very strong, newbie area is either too easy or DK a bit too strong, wtf free rez every 10 min...
-Fresh out of the chain I notice that even against equal level mobs around LH I'm smashing them with impunity
-get to outlands and I might as well have a "steamroll" button
-specced blood and noticed the reactive healing from 1 proc of bloodworms is more than the healing from SoL/judge over 1 entire fight, though I will admit I haven't played WotLK pally yet
-heard that people argued that relative strength of paladin was based on the gear you start outlands with, so i took 1/2 of it off and still dominated everything
-with blood spec I had zero downtime, and I mean ZERO, I got ganked a few times and it was easier to gain health when I rezzed by fighting the closest mob instead of sitting down to eat, that's crazy efficient

So far I'm both impressed and horrified. I see so many core abilities of other classes in this class that it feels hard to go back and play a class with same X bennefits and Y detriments when the DK has none of the detriments. I think I'm going to spec unholy when I hit 60 for DnD + other aoe dmg. If DKs went live how they are now I think I could delete all my 70's and still be happy. I'm sure once I did that murphys law would nerf DKs into oblivion but I doubt it.

I also did some youtubing of 5 man DK groups and DK aoe soloing. Looks like prot pallies have something they aren't the best at anymore.

Not trying to say "QQ DK too strong, nerf please" since I don't have a 77 or 80 for that matter. At the same time, I've gotten at least 10 characters into outlands and this was by far the easiest time I've ever had, even at 1/2 gear. I guess I'll see how they scale with some more levels under his belt but it looks like Blizzard has chosen a new golden child.