WotLK Discussion - Talents and abilities. - Page 58

Lapp · 08/18/08, 7:23 PM

So one has anything to say about my "conjecture", I suppose, at the top of this page? :<

Has this sort of thing been discussed in-depth here already, or elsewhere, and I've missed it?

Stoical · 08/18/08, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Dangasaur

I rolled a DK to level 59 over the weekend. Here are my thoughts:

-I'm very impressed with the quest chain leading to lights hope, simply the best chain I've seen in WoW.
-lots of new DKs rolling with me, though quests seem very manageable and I don't have to really wait for anything
-Class starts out very strong, newbie area is either too easy or DK a bit too strong, wtf free rez every 10 min...
-Fresh out of the chain I notice that even against equal level mobs around LH I'm smashing them with impunity
-get to outlands and I might as well have a "steamroll" button
-specced blood and noticed the reactive healing from 1 proc of bloodworms is more than the healing from SoL/judge over 1 entire fight, though I will admit I haven't played WotLK pally yet
-heard that people argued that relative strength of paladin was based on the gear you start outlands with, so i took 1/2 of it off and still dominated everything
-with blood spec I had zero downtime, and I mean ZERO, I got ganked a few times and it was easier to gain health when I rezzed by fighting the closest mob instead of sitting down to eat, that's crazy efficient

So far I'm both impressed and horrified. I see so many core abilities of other classes in this class that it feels hard to go back and play a class with same X bennefits and Y detriments when the DK has none of the detriments. I think I'm going to spec unholy when I hit 60 for DnD + other aoe dmg. If DKs went live how they are now I think I could delete all my 70's and still be happy. I'm sure once I did that murphys law would nerf DKs into oblivion but I doubt it.

I also did some youtubing of 5 man DK groups and DK aoe soloing. Looks like prot pallies have something they aren't the best at anymore.

Not trying to say "QQ DK too strong, nerf please" since I don't have a 77 or 80 for that matter. At the same time, I've gotten at least 10 characters into outlands and this was by far the easiest time I've ever had, even at 1/2 gear. I guess I'll see how they scale with some more levels under his belt but it looks like Blizzard has chosen a new golden child.

I appreciate that you say you're not calling for a nerf, but at the same time, you're making broad assertions like "prot pallies have something they aren't the best at anymore" and "Blizzard has chosen a new golden child." You're basing this on 4 levels of experience with the class, all of which your gear is massively overtuned for, as well as some bugged talents and outdated YouTube videos.

1) Even if DKs were as awesome at soloing as they currently seem to be, or seem to be in the Outlands, that doesn't mean they're a "golden child," or that they're overtuned. Most would agree that leveling balance is irrelevant. What matters is how they balance in end-game PvE and PvP. Right now it's uncertain how much damage they'll do at 80, whether their raid buffs are enough to justify swapping them in for another dps class depending on how stacking issues are resolved, and whether they'll be viable in arena with their kitability issues. I'm not saying any of these problems are insurmountable, but it's questionable, and those are the questions that we should be focused on, not how well they can level.
2) Bloodworms are bugged and appear to be returning too much healing. See WoW Forums -> Fix the bloodworm healing.
3) Your gear at 58 is itemized such that it could easily take you halfway through Outland, if not all the way. Of course you're going to stomp all the mobs at LHC, and even in early Outland.
4) Most of the crazy AoE and 5-man DK YouTube videos are from pre-nerf D&D beta, when D&D was nuts and doing double damage. If you're going to refer a specific YouTube video, please link it.
5) Having leveled a lock, SP, shaman, and paladin to 70; a rogue, warrior, and mage to 60; and a DK to 77, I'll tell you that a DK is great at soloing, but once you get to Northrend, it's nothing insane compared to what some other classes can do. Yes, it can solo same-level elites, but so can a mage (if the elite is kitable), a lock, and many rogues. A DK can melt through mobs with zero downtime, but so can a lock or an enhance shaman, and if an elite mob is immune to diseases, chances are you're not going to be able to solo it. When I was leveling my lock to 70, I don't think I came across a single group quest I was unable to solo, even the unfearable ones.

In other words, if you're going to provide opinions like "DK has none of the detriments," please play a little more, at least into Northrend so your gear isn't overtuned, confirm the accuracy of your reference material, consult the beta forums where the ever-changing class is being discussed, and refer to specific abilities that you think are OP. I'm concerned that people who don't plan to play a DK are jumping on forums like this and the beta forums after playing a DK to 60 or so yelling about how uber DKs are, effectively calling for a nerf even if they add disclaimers like "I'm not calling for a nerf." If the devs listen to them, the devs may nerf soloing ability at the expense of undertuning DKs for the end-game content where balance really matters.

Prepared · 08/18/08, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Lapp

So one has anything to say about my "conjecture", I suppose, at the top of this page? :<

Has this sort of thing been discussed in-depth here already, or elsewhere, and I've missed it?

I think Pyros covered parts of that pretty well, unless you mean a different post on a different page? I didn't say anything because I mostly agreed with their assessment, and haven't done math to the contrary yet.

The chart isn't too terribly difficult to follow. The only easier method would be to have a comic a'la Alamo: "DEATH STORK GOZ HAR" or something.

Or, yanno, a /castsequence macro.

Dangasaur · 08/18/08, 8:33 PM

Originally Posted by Stoical

I appreciate that you say you're not calling for a nerf, but at the same time, you're making broad assertions like "prot pallies have something they aren't the best at anymore" and "Blizzard has chosen a new golden child." You're basing this on 4 levels of experience with the class, all of which your gear is massively overtuned for, as well as some bugged talents and outdated YouTube videos.

1) Even if DKs were as awesome at soloing as they currently seem to be, or seem to be in the Outlands, that doesn't mean they're a "golden child," or that they're overtuned. Most would agree that leveling balance is irrelevant. What matters is how they balance in end-game PvE and PvP. Right now it's uncertain how much damage they'll do at 80, whether their raid buffs are enough to justify swapping them in for another dps class depending on how stacking issues are resolved, and whether they'll be viable in arena with their kitability issues. I'm not saying any of these problems are insurmountable, but it's questionable, and those are the questions that we should be focused on, not how well they can level.
2) Bloodworms are bugged and appear to be returning too much healing. See WoW Forums -> Fix the bloodworm healing.
3) Your gear at 58 is itemized such that it could easily take you halfway through Outland, if not all the way. Of course you're going to stomp all the mobs at LHC, and even in early Outland.
4) Most of the crazy AoE and 5-man DK YouTube videos are from pre-nerf D&D beta, when D&D was nuts and doing double damage. If you're going to refer a specific YouTube video, please link it.
5) Having leveled a lock, SP, shaman, and paladin to 70; a rogue, warrior, and mage to 60; and a DK to 77, I'll tell you that a DK is great at soloing, but once you get to Northrend, it's nothing insane compared to what some other classes can do. Yes, it can solo same-level elites, but so can a mage (if the elite is kitable), a lock, and many rogues. A DK can melt through mobs with zero downtime, but so can a lock or an enhance shaman, and if an elite mob is immune to diseases, chances are you're not going to be able to solo it. When I was leveling my lock to 70, I don't think I came across a single group quest I was unable to solo, even the unfearable ones.

In other words, if you're going to provide opinions like "DK has none of the detriments," please play a little more, at least into Northrend so your gear isn't overtuned, confirm the accuracy of your reference material, consult the beta forums where the ever-changing class is being discussed, and refer to specific abilities that you think are OP. I'm concerned that people who don't plan to play a DK are jumping on forums like this and the beta forums after playing a DK to 60 or so yelling about how uber DKs are, effectively calling for a nerf even if they add disclaimers like "I'm not calling for a nerf." If the devs listen to them, the devs may nerf soloing ability at the expense of undertuning DKs for the end-game content where balance really matters.

Well in my post I did have several disclaimers about my ignorance, which you have adequately highlighted. However, I do believe soloing ability should be ballanced to the other classes considering the current landscape of TBC. Example:

I have a tank, a mele dps, a caster dps, and a healer 70. Many other people do not, and they either #1 take the time to level an alt or #2 buy an alt off ebay or another player. Consider this, if I'm bored with my one or two 70's, why would I take the time to level a class, even if it started with any one of the many gifts a DK has, when a DK is so fast to solo and has such a huge head start. Especially considering that they have spells and abilities similar to just about every other class out there. For an alt-a-holic like myself the choice is a no brainer after so many years into this game.

I'm not arguing about end game viability and balancing, it's obvious that blizzards #1 priority is getting that right sooner than later. But, getting to 80 is also going to be a feat in itself, and the head start is something special that I think prevents alts of other classes from being rolled.

I think my comment regarding "golden child" still stands. Every class seems to have an internal balance of strengths and weaknesses that were apparent at level 20, 40, 60 and 70. There is something missing when I can't find faults in a character after 5 levels, regardless of what has been given to me. I shouldn't have to wait to 70 or 80 to find out what I'm not good at. It should be ingrained in my at the first level and be a theme throughout the life of the character.

Mage - don't let stuff hit me
Hunter - I need a pet
ect...

What is the DK bad at when he is level 58? I should be able to answer that question, and I can't.

Pyros · 08/18/08, 8:52 PM

You should probably add Blood DK in your comments, since unholy or frost DKs are pretty much like any other melee class around, they suffer from ranged dps and downtime. Blood DKs compensate downtime with bugged worms and vendetta. Yeah they're very good for leveling. Is that a problem really though? There's been very good classes at leveling since wow started, and surprisingly enough, when people reroll, they don't go like, "Ok I'm gonna reroll the easiest class to level", they usually go "Eh I want to play a X, so gonna reroll one". Yeah I'm sure tons of people will reroll DKs. They start at 55, they're cool from a design/style point of view, and they're easy to level. Does it matter though? It's the same people that have hunters or rogues because they're easy to level and easy to pvp with.

As long as it's balanced, aka they don't push a button and nuke a whole zone at once, I don't see an issue with being the best leveling class. It would have been another class anyway, combat rogues, feral druids, bm hunters, retadins, there's a lot of solid contenders for the title of brainless fast leveling. Blood is currently balanced toward the strong leveling specs, that's all that matters.

Zurai · 08/18/08, 8:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dangasaur

What is the DK bad at when he is level 58? I should be able to answer that question, and I can't.

What is a Druid bad at when he is level 58? He can tank, heal, and DPS enough for leveling all without spending a single point in talents. Or a Warlock? Warlocks are the kings of easy leveling.

Again, frankly, you're really not grokking to Blizzard's design intent. 58 is where you're supposed to be after you finish the "intro to DKs" quest chain. Everyone else in the game will be level 70 1/2 by the time you finish Light's Hope Chapel. Blizzard intentionally tuned DKs to be overpowered for Outlands content because, frankly, the population of Outlands is going to be about 95% Death Knights once WotLK hits. They want you to be able to power through it quickly and easily. When you hit Northrend at 68, it's a very, very different picture (except with the bugged bloodworms - they're healing for 4-5 times as much as they're supposed to).

Aezoc · 08/18/08, 9:04 PM

I'm not in beta, so I can't comment on the accuracy of your DK comments. But even in live, classes and specs are not balanced while leveling. Try, say, a hunter and then a priest in live, and tell me with a straight face that they're anywhere near comparable. Hunters, aff locks, etc can already grind with little to no down time, so if DKs can do it too... so what? Also, I think the idea that people will level DK alts because they start at 55 is far-fetched. I don't doubt most people will roll one to try it out and see the starting area, but people will play what they like. Particularly now, with the reduced XP, 1-55 isn't a big deal.

Darkmantle · 08/18/08, 9:31 PM

Originally Posted by Aezoc

I'm not in beta, so I can't comment on the accuracy of your DK comments. But even in live, classes and specs are not balanced while leveling. Try, say, a hunter and then a priest in live, and tell me with a straight face that they're anywhere near comparable. Hunters, aff locks, etc can already grind with little to no down time, so if DKs can do it too... so what? Also, I think the idea that people will level DK alts because they start at 55 is far-fetched. I don't doubt most people will roll one to try it out and see the starting area, but people will play what they like. Particularly now, with the reduced XP, 1-55 isn't a big deal.

I haven't leveled a hunter much, but I know my priest with the appropriate gear and spec ground mobs 2 levels higher than her almost indefinitely due to the wonders of spirit tap. Getting to level 20 and getting mind flay was absolutely the worst leveling experience I've had though.

Pyros · 08/18/08, 11:01 PM

The main difference is the fact you start close to 60 already, so you don't have to bother with low level specs without the major skills/talents to help leveling, and the fact you start with a full BC itemized blue set. If you could gear a good leveling class at 60 with the same kind of specially tailored items, you'd see similar performances on quite a few classes. Spriests, feral druids, enh shamans, retadins, BM hunter to name a few. It's no wonder by the end of outlands when you get to northrend, DKs aren't that crazy anymore since you're actually geared for the intended difficulty. The DK set is made to last you through a good deal of outlands, and it can easily lasts you through the whole thing if you feel ilke it.

Mild Confusion · 08/19/08, 12:46 AM

I keep hearing about the bugged blood worms, but I know little about them other than what the talent tooltip says.

How many can spawn at 1 time? The tooltip says 2-4 for 20 seconds, but do new ones spawn and the old ones despawn?

How much do they hit for at level 77?

Does their damage scale with level? AP? At all?

How much damage can they take?

What would it's best use be if it was working correctly then? PvP, raid melee heals, or a simple grind/solo talent?

Pyros · 08/19/08, 1:33 AM

You can spawn as many as you want, depending on RNG, no internal cooldowns(at least that's how it used to be). They hit for like 30ish at lvl77(used to be 150+), their damage scale with level but nothing else afaik. The bug is, instead of healing for 150% of the damage they do(which is what they're supposed to be healing for), they heal for like 400-500%. Issues with the various changes to them and stuff. So currently, they heal for insane amounts. They were actually quite balanced before, when they proced off death, but they didn't like the concept since it didn't work on bosses and such.

As for their usage, party healing with blood aura, and solo grinding/leveling mostly. For PvP, I doubt blood will be a very good choice anyway, and they tend to attack shit pretty randomly, which doesn't go well with CCs. Assuming you get them to proc on someone though, and assuming you pvp with blood aura, I guess it'd be some nice side healing. They're pretty tough, like, not sure exactly how tough, but they can take a few hits from equal level mobs before dieing, so they probably wouldn't die in a single AE like snake traps. It's also some additional DPS in all builds, they attack rather fast, someone would need to model them to find out what kind of DPS boost they actually are, but it's not too bad.

Valerys · 08/19/08, 4:03 AM

Hey all. I searched through this thread but didn't find any discussion concerning death knight PvP. As I'm thinking of creating a death knight alt purely for PvP (world, BG, and arenas), I have some questions.

1. Is the starting zone PvP enabled? If yes, that would mean major warfare between Alliance and Horde death knights, yes?
2. Has anyone tested death knights in PvP more extensively? What are your impressions?
3. What build would you say is best for PvP? From initial examination it seems to me that Unholy with some Frost is best suited for PvP, is that correct?

Prepared · 08/19/08, 4:34 AM

Originally Posted by Valerys

Hey all. I searched through this thread but didn't find any discussion concerning death knight PvP. As I'm thinking of creating a death knight alt purely for PvP (world, BG, and arenas), I have some questions.

1. Is the starting zone PvP enabled? If yes, that would mean major warfare between Alliance and Horde death knights, yes?

No, the starting zones are instanced. IE: Horde and Alliance get their own starting area, and then once leave there, Ebon Hold is a Sanctuary just like Shattrath.

bitanga · 08/19/08, 6:50 AM

Atm on EU forums we do have discussion is Obliterate OP or not. Unfortunatly many newbies see ability itself as something that need nerf, while they ignore how they are speced. I will just explain fast what happened there and maided me to think blood tree and crit bonus talents need reduction.

5 of us ( Holy paladin 77, Hunter 77, Elemental shaman 75, Blood dk 77 and Unholy/frost dk 77 lvl ) were doing Zul Drak theatre ( Northend ring of blood version ) and at 2 moments my guild mate who is blood speced took aggro from me. First time his comment was " lol 9k obliterate", next time " loooooool 10k". Checked Recount and saw that his normal Obliterate hits were between 2-3 k, while crit were in range 4500-10027 dmg. You will admit that its kinda insane dmg coming there.

While having conversation there on EU forums lower lvl ppl were getting even higher crit, which leads to question: does MoM require nerf?Checked fast US forums, but it seems that is normal thing for them, or i just need more time to look. Have in mind i am on work. Please post bellow if there is some conversation aswell.
here is link to EU discussion:
WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Obliterate OP nerf pls

bitanga · 08/19/08, 6:52 AM

edited

Illundai · 08/19/08, 8:55 AM

I think the people claiming that Blood DK grinding needs a nerf have never, ever levelled a Feral Druid past lvl 24. They have the same, 0 downtime. As for Obliterate; it's taking damage coefficients from other diseases then your own being on the target, which I'm certain is a bug.

Mild Confusion · 08/19/08, 9:02 AM

Wouldn't the time it takes to set off an Oliterate offset the high amount of damage it does? Two runes to place diseases and two runs to Obliterate. How much damage could come from doing a seperate rotation, plus losing the diseases (provided they are not specced deep into frost). Also, he stacked that screen shot by blowing cooldowns, that damage can't be spammable. It needing a nerf is a whole different matter.

I too would like to get a better feel for DK pvp. I don't see why blood would be a bad pvp spec. It may not have the control of frost, but the burst potential along with the passive group heals and anti haste could go a long way. The haste especially would make it rather anti caster depending on how much of a stat haste is, combined with frost fever debuff could make blood knights a huge pain.

One possible blood knight pvp specs could be this 51/11/9 spec. It gives great utility based on group heals, two cc breaks, haste removal, imp death grip, and decent burst potential. 2/2 unholy command talant is the DK's imp intercept, pretty sure it will be required in almost any pvp build.

Alternatively, I could see the potential of a 52/19 frost spec. You would gain impressive burst and a great group buff and a CC, plus frost fever can help on keeping a target snared if by chance that chains of ice wears off too fast.

I guess it depends on your play style. In my mind, anything that helps out my healer (in this case a pally) passive group heals and no haste buffs on my target and a way to keep her from being CC'd helps me. That brings up a good question however, do the group healing that blood knights bring increase the mana pool of a pally?

Valerys · 08/19/08, 9:06 AM

Originally Posted by Mild Confusion

That brings up a good question however, do the group healing that blood knights bring increase the mana pool of a pally?

I would expect so, since all similar group healing does so currently (LotP, VE).

bitanga · 08/19/08, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by Illundai

As for Obliterate; it's taking damage coefficients from other diseases then your own being on the target, which I'm certain is a bug.

I thought they fixed that.Wasnt even thinking in that direction. That explains much. Will have to poke Vileeh as soon as possible to check was he grouped with 1+ DK when this happened

Illundai · 08/19/08, 10:55 AM

You may want to check if it was during the period that everything had 0 armor. Next to that, it doesn't necessarily have to be a death knight, everything that does diseases (infected wounds for example) increases obliterate damage.

Pyros · 08/19/08, 11:04 AM

Yep, discussed that before, currently oblit will end up way way way overpowered if it were to go live that way, which is definitely not the case. Stack a dozen of DKs, with a DK tank(else you can't hold aggro), slap a few utility classes around, and you have an army of 10k DPS oblit spamming idiots. Still have rune limitations, but well it's still stupid. Also not having annihilation totally ruins oblit since it wipes all diseases off the target, which includes the ferals thunderclap thing. It's like back when I was doing vael, and our rogue CL would expose armor to get us wiped ^^.

Weigraf · 08/19/08, 11:33 AM

Might of Mograine seems a bit wonky right now. I haven't done any controlled testing, but criticals appear to do slightly more than three times the damage of non-criticals.

Edit: Obliterate criticals that is, but not Heart Strike.

shed · 08/19/08, 11:41 AM

The tooltip for Obliterate says it will only consume your diseases which assumes it means it will only get a bonus from your diseases on hits. However, the tooltip on Heatstrike says only 'disease' not implying the DK's own diseases (probably will be reworded to look like Obliterate).

It's safe to say that if it is eating up other diseases from other classes or other DKs that that is a bug (and obviously right now too powerful) and will be fixed soon on beta.

Don't be too quick to call for nerfs or imply that something broken on beta will be the end product.

Deathwing · 08/19/08, 11:49 AM

Does the "...50% additional damage for each disease..." affect just the bonus damage, or the weapon damage as well?

Also, does DRW do whatever it wants, or does it copy each attack you do?

Arcite · 08/19/08, 1:02 PM

DRW does what you do as far as I can tell, and it puts up diseases when you use the same abilities, such as plague strike putting up two blood plagues (you and DRW) and icy touch puts up two frost fevers. I don't think it crits at the same rate you do though, although I'd have to double check that.