WotLK Discussion - Talents and abilities. - Page 67

Buanna · 08/30/08, 5:27 AM

As an aside, does anyone know if Blood Caked Blades is functional yet?

Zurai · 08/30/08, 5:30 AM

It's been functional.

Hoofhearted · 08/30/08, 5:52 AM

Originally Posted by Sinzar

The 2 deathknight taunts have a shared cooldown. If you use Dark Command, Death Grip gets put on cooldown for 10 seconds, and if you use Death Grip, Dark Command is put on cooldown for 35 seconds.

This is probably intended to just put either of the taunts on a 10 second cooldown when the other is used.

Rakki · 08/30/08, 6:13 AM

Apart from Rune Strike, which other DK skills are off gcd? I am especially curious about Blood Tap, Empower Rune Weapon, and Death Chilll. If they are on gcd, chance of them screwing up rotation is probably high.

Sinzar · 08/30/08, 6:33 AM

Originally Posted by Rakki

Apart from Rune Strike, which other DK skills are off gcd? I am especially curious about Blood Tap, Empower Rune Weapon, and Death Chilll. If they are on gcd, chance of them screwing up rotation is probably high.

All of those are not on GCD.

Clandestine · 08/30/08, 6:37 AM

Originally Posted by Hoofhearted

This is probably intended to just put either of the taunts on a 10 second cooldown when the other is used.

I doubt it - when you Taunt on a Warrior, Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout are not put on a 10 second cooldown. More likely just a bug.

Pyros · 08/30/08, 7:13 AM

For the off GCD abilities, add Icebound fortitude, Antimagic Shell, Lichborne, Summon Ghoul, Death Pact(I think, but it's broken with master of ghoul so can't really test) and Mind Freeze. Rune Tap MIGHT be off GCD too, not 100%sure.

Last_Human · 08/30/08, 9:49 AM

Regarding the two DK taunts.

The only analogous situation I can think of is the mage talent Dragon's Breath which has a 20 second cooldown and shares it with Cone of Cold which has a 10 second cooldown.

Dragon's Breath locks out CoC for 20 seconds.
CoC locks out Dragon's Breath for 10 seconds.

Can't comment on how it affects DK gameplay at all but the precedent for linked abilities with different cooldowns is there.

Edit: For clarity.

Arcite · 08/30/08, 4:33 PM

Blizzard managed to create blood's Might of Morgraine Obliterate part 2 with Scourge Strike. 5704 crit at 64 seems a wee bit off. I wasn't even hitting that hard with obliterate back when MOM worked on it (although I do have 3 more levels now).

Even though this was with full diseases, unholy blight, in a desecrated ground area, but even the normal hits are over 2k.

Ceral · 08/30/08, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Clandestine

I doubt it - when you Taunt on a Warrior, Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout are not put on a 10 second cooldown. More likely just a bug.

Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout are not true taunts. Since no other tank can taunt more often than every 8/10 seconds (without new warrior talent's that still seem work in progress) it's probably intended behavoir.

Clandestine · 08/30/08, 6:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ceral

Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout are not true taunts. Since no other tank can taunt more often than every 8/10 seconds (without new warrior talent's that still seem work in progress) it's probably intended behavoir.

Death Grip is a Mocking Blow mechanic, not a true taunt. Source.

I reiterate, probably a bug.

Clandestine · 08/30/08, 6:53 PM

Originally Posted by Pyros

For the off GCD abilities, add Icebound fortitude, Antimagic Shell, Lichborne, Summon Ghoul, Death Pact(I think, but it's broken with master of ghoul so can't really test) and Mind Freeze. Rune Tap MIGHT be off GCD too, not 100%sure.

Actually, the only abilities in that list that are off the GCD are Lichborne and Antimagic Shell, although with this patch Icebound Fortitude is no longer triggering a GCD, but cannot be used while on the GCD (probably half-implemented as coming off the GCD, they've broken a couple spells like this in the past few builds.).

Raise Dead and Death Pact are definitely 100% on the GCD. Rune Tap I have also not tested, too lazy to spec into it.

mrboh · 08/30/08, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by Pyros

So ran a few preliminary tests, but this stupid server keeps going down, and I'm gonna eat/level my 5boxing RAF accounts now. I ran some tests to find AP coeff for spells. I used this formula:

Coeff= (Damage Done - Base Damage)/AP

Found it on wiki.

Deathcoil=0.25

Corpse Explosion=0.156

Gargoyle=0.26 (went back to high school and did some math to find out base damage, which is 498 per bolt, with a small margin of error due to approximations)

Icy Touch=0.16

Pestilence=0.042

Stangulate=0.02

Death and Decay=0.044 per tick

Unholy Blight=0.039 per tick

I'll do the rest later, when the server stops crashing.

Just following up on this post, does anybody have any information about the AP scaling of diseases? Going by the Unholy Blight figure I'd guess a coefficient of around 0.12 per tick for Frost Fever/Blood Plague but I'd be interested to see some concrete numbers for base damage at level 80 and AP coefficients.

Deathwing · 08/31/08, 1:01 AM

How much damage does Blood Boil do on a decently geared unholy tank(so, 3 diseases)? I was first perplexed at that change to Reaping as well, but I thought, if Blood Boil does similar damage to Blood Strike in tanking gear, Reaping would actually make a really good talent towards Blade Barrier uptime.

Icy Touch -> Plague Strike -> Blood Boil 2x -> Scourge Strike......Scourge Strike 2x -> Runic Power abilities(1-2 Death coils) -> Scourge Strike Then repeat cycle. You could probably get at least 60% uptime on Blade Barrier that way, and since you go through runes so fast on the second cycle, you can better control the consistency of the uptime. Just time the last Scourge Strike when your disease will run out.

Lanlaorn · 08/31/08, 1:17 AM

How much damage does Blood Boil do on a decently geared unholy tank(so, 3 diseases)? I was first perplexed at that change to Reaping as well, but I thought, if Blood Boil does similar damage to Blood Strike in tanking gear, Reaping would actually make a really good talent towards Blade Barrier uptime.

Icy Touch -> Plague Strike -> Blood Boil 2x -> Scourge Strike......Scourge Strike 2x -> Runic Power abilities(1-2 Death coils) -> Scourge Strike Then repeat cycle. You could probably get at least 60% uptime on Blade Barrier that way, and since you go through runes so fast on the second cycle, you can better control the consistency of the uptime. Just time the last Scourge Strike when your disease will run out.

I'm not in the beta but just looking at the way the abilities work (Blood Strike, Blood Boil and Scourge Strike), I think it's worth using 2 Blood Boils instead of 2 Blood Strikes because with 4 diseases (you can have 100% Unholy Blight uptime) and all the talents that improve Scourge Strike in particular and Shadow damage in general (Ebon Plague, Black Ice) 2 Blood Boils + 1 Scourge Strike >> 4 Blood Strikes.

Scourge strike looks like an absolute beast and I'm glad Unholy Tanks will have both amazing AoE tanking abilities and seriously solid single target TPS. Now I just need to do some math and decide if 4/5 Imp Icy Talons is better than 2/2 Imp 2handers + 3/3 Wandering Plague (as opposed to 1/3). The Icy Talons would be increase white damage and Necrosis, BCB. But Imp 2hander would increase those abilities as well as strikes and Unholy has so many (strong!) diseases that Wandering Plague is also looking quite good! Thoughts form a beta tester?

Scraps · 08/31/08, 1:47 AM

Originally Posted by Pyros

New talents are up, as usual, list of the new stuff:

I also noticed Hysteria is now considered an Enrage effect, which means it will cause a Warrior's Rend to do 4x damage to the Death Knight and Hysteria is removable by a Hunter's Tranq Shot.

Edit: Death Grip, Vampiric Blood and Hysteria do not appear to be on the GCD.

Aezoc · 08/31/08, 3:01 AM

Originally Posted by Buanna

As an aside, does anyone know if Blood Caked Blades is functional yet?

It is, and was in 8820 as well.

Azurai · 08/31/08, 3:02 AM

Originally Posted by Deathwing

How much damage does Blood Boil do on a decently geared unholy tank(so, 3 diseases)? I was first perplexed at that change to Reaping as well, but I thought, if Blood Boil does similar damage to Blood Strike in tanking gear, Reaping would actually make a really good talent towards Blade Barrier uptime.

Its important to note that BB only requires A disease, it doesn't scale with multiple diseases like BS. With 2.5k ap (self buffed in pvp gear) and Outbreak (30% dmg), Black Ice (15% dmg), RoRivendare (10% dmg), Impurity (25% more ap for ability scaling) it hits for around 850. I do have desecrate but that's broken this build (another 10%). It has 150% crits as a spell, too.

No one knows how much ap we'll be running in tank gear though, especially considering how they're neutering buff stacking and normalizing it to be raid wide.

But longer story short, with quad diseases you won't be running BB over for single target purposes any time soon, certainly not in a raid situation with armor reduction to let BS jump way ahead. Now, due to the sheer amount of multipliers applied to BB I wouldn't say that's set in stone forever, though, especially with sigils and set bonuses as prime contenders for breaking the ability.

EDIT: As for scourge strike, its broken, obviously. I can crit for 15k (dpsing) easily, that's going to change. Is 2 BB + a SS > 4 BS in the long run? Not likely in a raid situation, especially with the 150% crit on BB.

Aezoc · 08/31/08, 3:10 AM

I think ultimately it depends on how scourge strike pans out, at least for deep unholy. For me, BS definitely hits harder than BB right now, but the extra SS from BB + Reaping translates into far more damage than the bit extra from BS. SS is obviously going to be nerfed before live, but it still may be worth losing some up-front damage to get death runes for SS.

Scraps · 08/31/08, 11:42 AM

Just noticed something nifty, not sure this should stay for live.

With the change to Reaping, you can use Blood Boil out of combat and turn your Blood Runes into Death runes before every fight.

If you are not within 30 yards of an attackable target, the rune will recharge in 3 seconds and become a Death Rune.

If you are within 30 yards of an attackable target, you will gain the 10 Runic Power for it as well as becoming a Death Rune. It does not aggro anything.

Also, Bone Shield grants 10 Runic Power on use.

With these tricks combined I have been starting every fight with full Runic Power and 2 Death Runes. Useful for soloing AE packs starting with Blight.

SuperDyu · 09/01/08, 1:39 AM

The taunt being shared puts you in a case where you have 2 taunts for 2 situations -

Dark Command (non range one i believe) would be the one you use most of the time in usual tanking situations (or in conjunction with unholy presence/aura).

Death grip would be more used to grab something that you will not be able to run up to.

Having played a warrior tank (70 + mid range raiding), and a paladin tank (only 63) i can see how this works as righteous defense is similar to death grip in the sense of a ranged taunt, and regular taunt.

The best way I could think of it is to use dark command when things are peeled to melee, and dark command when thigns go running to range dps/healers. Kind of a no brainer, but it seems to be fine. The trick is to be efficient and run and use dark command when things haven't gotten too far.

In a pvp sense, it comes down to death grip in terms of general usefulness, only use for dark command goes out the window for places like AB/AV since you have so many instant attacks as a DK (i've used righteous defense and taunts to break flag caps).

So far with videos, it seems people are being inefficient by showing off the bling factor of death grip.

I vaguely remember reading Demand is the new AoE taunt or something (could be confusing names of the abilities). All in all, warrior taunt abilities with a ranged taunt = kickass.

Clandestine · 09/01/08, 1:51 AM

Death Knights do not currently have an AoE taunt, and Ghostcrawler has said that Army of the Dead is intended as a quasi substitute. Source.

Zurai · 09/01/08, 3:04 AM

It looks like Impurity isn't quite as bad a talent as I thought. I just posted it to the beta boards as well, but here's the math I worked up for it:

Assumptions:
1000 damage average autoattack @ 2.8 speed for simplicity (2h weapon).
2000 attack power.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03050003133151
20% melee crit, base.
All attacks hit (attacking from behind with 9% hit and 6% or so expertise).
DPS measured from the middle of the rotation, such that all talents are already active.
30% armor reduction.

Rotation:
IT-PS-ScS-BB-BB-UB-ScS-ScS-ScS
Using 2 Rune Strikes throughout the rotation (any more is not sustainable with UB)

Autoattack damage:
Autoattack = 1000 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 0.7 = 847 average damage. With crits, 1016 expected.
Necrosis = 25% of autoattack * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.13 = 399 per autoattack (crits figured in).
Blood-Caked Blade = 200% of weapon damage * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.13 * 0.15 = 471 per autoattack.
8.57 swings per complete rotation (20 seconds) = 16,163 damage (808 DPS).

Strike damage:
Plague Strike = (60% of weapon damage + 21) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 0.7 = 604 average damage. With crits, 808 expected.
Scourge Strike = (100% of weapon damage + 1482) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.13 = 4488 average damage. With crits, 6004 expected.
Rune Strike = Autoattack
Damage per complete rotation = 20,852 damage (1042 DPS).

Impurity-affected damage without Impurity:
Icy Touch = (244 + 16% of attack power) * 1.3 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.13 = 1268 average damage. With crits, 1521 expected.
Bloodboil = (115 average damage + 10% of attack power) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.3 * 1.13 = 643 average damage. With crits, 708 expected.
Unholy Blight = (104 + 3.9% of attack power) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.6 * 1.13 = 457 average damage per tick. With crits, 503 expected.
Frost Fever = (127 + 4% of attack power) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.6 * 1.13 = 520 damage per tick.
Blood Plague = (127 + 4% of attack power) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.6 * 1.13 = 520 damage per tick.
Wandering Plague = 20% chance of critting per disease tick = 104 expected damage per tick.
Damage per complete rotation = 26,725 damage (1336 DPS)

With Impurity:
Icy Touch = (244 + 20% of attack power) * 1.3 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.13 = 1448 average damage. With crits, 1737 expected.
Bloodboil = (115 average damage + 12.5% of attack power) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.3 * 1.13 = 746 average damage. With crits, 820 expected.
Unholy Blight = (104 + 4.875% of attack power) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.6 * 1.13 = 506 average damage per tick. With crits, 557 expected.
Frost Fever = (127 + 5% of attack power) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.6 * 1.13 = 571 damage per tick.
Blood Plague = (127 + 5% of attack power) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.6 * 1.13 = 571 damage per tick.
Wandering Plague = 20% chance of critting per disease tick = 114 expected damage per tick.
Damage per complete rotation = 29,589 damage (1479 DPS)

Total DPS without Impurity: 3186
Total DPS with Impurity: 3329

DPS gain from Impurity: 143, or 4.5%

4.5% for 5 points is 0.9% per point, which isn't godawful. It's not as good as pretty much any other pure DPS talent in Unholy, but at least you're not throwing points down the toilet when you're forced to take it to advance farther down the tree.

Scraps · 09/01/08, 4:27 AM

I was just wondering when someone was going to crunch the math on Impurity when I was respeccing this morning. Thanks for doing that, Zurai!

Pyros · 09/01/08, 5:22 AM

Would probably need to model it in an excel sheet to be able to input your ap/crit/weapon and so on to have a real number though, the values used here are a bit arbitrary. The AP seems low, the crit ok, and the white damage rather high.

You have an excess of RP however. Your first rotation is 60RP so that's fine, the triple scourge would give 45RP however, with 2 rune strikes, you're still left with 25rp, so every other "full" rotation you get a deathcoil and an additional runestrike. One thing however is, you don't get blood plague ticks when using UB. Also remains to be seen with final values if it'll be worth using bloodboils for scourges instead of bloodstrikes, which would generate more RP overall, so more deathcoils. With broken scourge it's a no brainer, once they balance stuff, I guess that will depend.

Overall, accounting for the lost DC and the probably much higher AP(had 3.2k earlier with blessing of might and bladed armor), the talent is probably worth 1% per point, which is decent. Not great, but not too bad either.