Is there a particular solid reason why every single rotation I have seen on this thread starts with IT instead of PS?
Starting with PS will increase the damage of IT by 10% per rotation (assuming all diseases wear off before re-applicatiion).
While it's not a huge number, I suppose it still counts when we want to maximise dps.
Just for clarification: I am not talking about Unholy spec only.
EDIT: What is the duration of Blood Plague? Is it 12s too, just like Frost Fever?
Yeah same duration. Most rotations start with IT because when you play at current level(5mans), it's the most intuitive to use IT first, since it's ranged, so you use it while moving toward your target. Ultimately, if they keep current values close to this, it won't matter too much because you'll have unholy blight up all the time, which pretty much gives a 100%uptime on blood plague(refreshes it every tick, so even if you don't have UB up for a bit, if you have epidemic you'll still have 18secs of blood plague). So it only matters for the first hit, which isn't too much of an issue.
If you don't have UB, you're probably not unholy spec, so I don't really see a point in using PS before IT? Diseased Rot maybe, and then yeah I guess. I believe diseased rot works with any disease though, so if you have another DK or a feral in the raid chances are there will always be a disease.
Would probably need to model it in an excel sheet to be able to input your ap/crit/weapon and so on to have a real number though, the values used here are a bit arbitrary. The AP seems low, the crit ok, and the white damage rather high.
You have an excess of RP however. Your first rotation is 60RP so that's fine, the triple scourge would give 45RP however, with 2 rune strikes, you're still left with 25rp, so every other "full" rotation you get a deathcoil and an additional runestrike. One thing however is, you don't get blood plague ticks when using UB. Also remains to be seen with final values if it'll be worth using bloodboils for scourges instead of bloodstrikes, which would generate more RP overall, so more deathcoils. With broken scourge it's a no brainer, once they balance stuff, I guess that will depend.
Overall, accounting for the lost DC and the probably much higher AP(had 3.2k earlier with blessing of might and bladed armor), the talent is probably worth 1% per point, which is decent. Not great, but not too bad either.
White damage is high? I have 913 average at level 75 (with a slower weapon, true).
I forgot about Bloodboils when I was calculating RP usage. The difference between 2 Runestrikes and 1 Deathcoil is minimal, though. Actually, 2 more Runestrikes is going to be more damage than replacing all 4 with a Deathcoil. Bloodboil does about as much damage for me as Blood Strike, so it's a no-brainer. Don't forget it has about a half dozen stacking multipliers, while BS only has two for Unholy (RoR and Desecrate). The "no blood plague ticks" is a bug, presumably, as is UB not counting as a disease past rank 1. I "fixed" both bugs for the math.
4.5% for 5 points is 0.9% per point, which isn't godawful. It's not as good as pretty much any other pure DPS talent in Unholy, but at least you're not throwing points down the toilet when you're forced to take it to advance farther down the tree.
I think you're selling yourself short on some of the stats you used. With an Unholy build and a full complement of raid buffs (ie. the list of non-stackable buffs) you can easily push 3500+ AP in mostly dungeon blues/crafted epics. For example:
With higher AP I imagine Impurity would become even more useful.
Also, I'm wondering where you got your AP coefficients and base values for diseases from. Did you work them out yourself? MMO-Champion lists Unholy Blight (Rank 4) base damage as 152 per second but you use a lower value, is the MMO-Champion data incorrect?
I used the coefficients listed on the previous page of this thread. As for the stat assumptions, I based them off my current level 75 character. I took the data for damage and so on from wowhead, though it's quite possible I missed a rank here or there. The extra 30 damage/tick isn't really going to change the conclusion, though.
Sorry if this has been covered but i was wondering about the new Scourge Strike. Is the "50% additional damage for each disease" applied to just the "plus 494" or the whole "weapon damage + 494"? Also is BCB able to miss/crit and is Necrosis tied to it? (thought i remembered someone saying it was)
Note: I took the Scourge Strike values form MMO-Champ so if they arent up to date i apologize.
It only applies to the additional damage, not the 100% weapon damage component.
BCB can crit, I believe, but neither it nor Necrosis can miss, be dodged, be parried, or be blocked. Not sure what you mean about Necrosis being tied to it.
It only applies to the additional damage, not the 100% weapon damage component.
BCB can crit, I believe, but neither it nor Necrosis can miss, be dodged, be parried, or be blocked. Not sure what you mean about Necrosis being tied to it.
Thanks for the reply, ill try to find the quote about the Necrosis thing. Though it was probably an old post with, now outdated, information.
Fun little bug you should try out before it gets fixed. Use icy chains then grip immediatly after and your target will fly though the air incredably slow. Just spam IT and DC and it will usually die before it lands.
Last edited by Mild Confusion : 09/01/08 at 6:06 PM.
Thanks for the reply, ill try to find the quote about the Necrosis thing. Though it was probably an old post with, now outdated, information.
Necrosis used to miss/dodge etc, it was counted a different hit. They fixed it however.
About white damage, I don't know I said I thought it was high because my white damage is around 850-890, with the pvp sword which is a pretty decent weapon. I misworded it however, what I meant is, the weapon damage would be high for this level of stat(based on low AP). It would probably be higher however with a reasonable AP number, and as I said, 3k AP is a much safer number to work with, since I can get by just having a retadin buff me. Either way, Impurity should still end up being decent.
Also about runestrikes vs Deathcoil, there's the runestrike cd to work off, and the fact it might not be always up(until they make it proc off melee specials at least, if they intend to). Deathcoils also benefit from the PvP Sigil which adds about 220dmg to it, making it quite an itneresting choice, albeit not as good as 4runestrikes.
Edit:
Originally Posted by Mild Confusion
Fun little bug you should try out before it gets fixed. Use icy chains then grip immediatly after and your target will fly though the air incredably fast. Just spam IT and DC and it will usually die before it lands.
That's a fun one, another is, if you have Shadow of Death talent, when you repop as a ghoul, you can use any of your DK abilities that are not on the main bar(can use them from spellbook if needed), until you're out of runes. It's quite funny to hit some guy you were fighting with with a scourge strike for 5k when in ghoul form ^^. Reported both already though, so should get fixed at some point.
I have been wondering for a while if there is a mistake in the tooltip of DRM talent in MMO-champion. If it works just like the tooltip's description, it looks seriously underpowered for a 3-pt talent.
I couldn't fit in DS anywhere at all, because on all occasions when a frost and an unholy runes are up, I'd prioritise Obliterate over DS. My rotation would be: IT-PS-Oblit-HS-HS-DC-(empty)-(empty)-Oblit with 1 RS with or after DC.
I don't participate in the Beta, so all those mentioned above were based on purely my own theorycrafting. As such there may be inaccuracy.
Another question: It seems that Blood presence is almost always more desirable for dps than Unholy presense. Has someone figured out when Unholy presence may outperform Blood presence?
I have been wondering for a while if there is a mistake in the tooltip of DRM talent in MMO-champion. If it works just like the tooltip's description, it looks seriously underpowered for a 3-pt talent.
I couldn't fit in DS anywhere at all, because on all occasions when a frost and an unholy runes are up, I'd prioritise Obliterate over DS. My rotation would be: IT-PS-Oblit-HS-HS-DC-(empty)-(empty)-Oblit with 1 RS with or after DC.
I don't participate in the Beta, so all those mentioned above were based on purely my own theorycrafting. As such there may be inaccuracy.
Another question: It seems that Blood presence is almost always more desirable for dps than Unholy presense. Has someone figured out when Unholy presence may outperform Blood presence?
For that spec, I would use Death Strike rather than Oblit only when you drop below 75% health and lose your Blood Gorged buff. Also when tanking I use DS almost exclusively to save the stress on my healer, except for maybe if I over-gear the instance so much that I can justify using Oblit for dps fun.
Blood hasn't been the top dps spec in a few weeks so I don't know how many people have really been looking that hard at it. From what I remember, one thing I strongly agreed with from the Blood spec discussion a few pages back in this thread was that having Epidemic is a flat out DPS increase and not to be missed.
The only real reason for DRM is to enable double Heart strike on every other rotation. Death Strike is pretty low dps but heals you back up.
Also I would say from testing with it that Vendetta is very weak. If you need health, you pretty much just death strike. Nothing else is really even needed to support this. I personally sneak one point into Vampiric Blood sometimes because it's fun to get crazy large Death Strike heals sometimes, but otherwise your basic Death Strike every so often is the only healing you'll need. Bloodworms at this point is not healing a crazy amount anymore either, but still nice to have.
To sum it up, with Epidemic, your diseases last 6 seconds longer, from 12s to 18s each. This gives each disease an extra two ticks of damage, which is trivial. However, due to the rotational nature of DK DPS, having an extra 6 seconds of disease time enables the rotation to extend long enough to support two rotations per application. The less often you are refreshing diseases the more Obliterates you can perform. The beauty is that while untalented 12s diseases are just enough time for 1 rotation plus 1 ability, 18 seconds is a full 2 rotations worth of disease time.
2 heart strikes is more damage than 1 obliterate. It used to be enough extra damage that the loss from death strike was actually less than the gain from heart strike, meaning you rarely if ever obliterated.
Another question: It seems that Blood presence is almost always more desirable for dps than Unholy presense. Has someone figured out when Unholy presence may outperform Blood presence?
If you're talking extended dps in the current build, never. With the old rune masteries and investment into talents that speed up and emphasize white attacks, maybe dual wield, unholy presence was arguably better in that you would be proccing so many faster rune cooldowns. Now, without rune masteries, the math is much simpler: 15% haste is at best equal to 15% damage in the long run for some abilities (white attacks), but for many abilities (anything depending on runes) it will always be significantly worse, meaning you're always going to be better overall using blood, even if your spec heavily favors white damage.
Unholy shines if you're soloing mobs that you easily kill in one rotation so you can blast through that rotation faster. So if PS+IT+SS=115% or more dead, you may as well PS+IT+SS with Unholy.
Of course, the burst potential for PvP is great, and at the very least it's like a poor man's Crusader Aura.
In reply to the last couple of posts (I don't feel like multi-quoting -_-)
I've been playing Frost now ever since Blood got owned--too big of a hit in both damage and healing departments, imo; should've been just one or the other, or a more moderate decrease. Anyway, I like it a lot, as the damage is quite mind-blowingly strong. AoE, too.
To note with this spec, however, is that Vendetta is quite good (as a 18/50 + extra spec) for grinding, as is Unholy Presence. UP lets you bury abilities into your opponents 50% as fast, which will let you kill mobs faster than with 15% extra damage using BP (and the healing is taken care of by Vendetta). Obviously, this only holdes true for grinding, because there is travel time between mobs while your runes get ready again. While DPS'ing stationary in an instance or raid or whatnot, you'd be standing during that extra time when runes aren't available fingering your asshole or something, so Blood would obviously be more damage there.
I don't think Vendetta is worth it for Blood, seeing as you don't have points to spare and that the healing isn't really needed (Bloodworms + Death Strike). I'm not sure about UP as Blood either, as I haven't tested it. I can though say that leveling up, Vendetta and UP are both very very good for Frost.
Honestly though, there's currently no reason to spec Blood for leveling, seeing as Frost has much faster kill time, better AoE capability, and no downtime, either. Furthermore, a modified Frost spec (more points in Frost, less in blood) is much better for PvP. Dunno about Unholy.
When changes are more finalized I'll probably update my charts for Blood and Frost dips, but we'll see when that time comes.
Unholy presence seems like it would be most useful on mobilty situations, such as certain pve encounters and fighting certain class's in pvp. I've learned that DK's can kite quite effectively, especially as frost. Chain, HB, BB, DC can do wonders to keep yourself from getting hit by certain classes and mobs. Add 15% run speed to that and you can kite very well.
MMO-champion's tooltip for DRM states 3 min cooldown. Is there a mistake? I suppose for it to be worth 3 talent points, it has to be a passive with much shorter cooldown or no cooldown at all.
Is BCB working properly now? The last time it was tested, it was shown to deal damage based on ONLY the default weapon damage, unmodified by attack power. It also didn't seem to proc from OH swing.
MMO-champion's tooltip for DRM states 3 min cooldown. Is there a mistake? I suppose for it to be worth 3 talent points, it has to be a passive with much shorter cooldown or no cooldown at all.
Is BCB working properly now? The last time it was tested, it was shown to deal damage based on ONLY the default weapon damage, unmodified by attack power. It also didn't seem to proc from OH swing.
DRM has no cooldown, probably a mistake, or a mixup, I believe once you make your runes Death Runes, they only last for a while(3mins maybe). I've seen Reaping wear off before, I guess it's the same mechanic.
09/01/08, 6:45 AM
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