WotLK Discussion - Talents and abilities. - Page 74

Septus · 09/15/08, 11:38 AM

Has anyone checked the viability of Blood dps eschewing the use of diseases(and annihilation), and getting an extra obliterate in their rotation by using the obliterate glyph? It seems like it would not only save you from having to use frost talents, but would also make things generally less complex and make it easier to keep blade barrier up, in situations where another player is providing the attack slow debuff.

Zurai · 09/15/08, 12:19 PM

Death Knight glyphs aren't in game yet, so no.

nevinera · 09/15/08, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Raedix

The Blood tanking skill is clearly for off-tanking, where you may be counting on a single healer who just can't keep up, and is bombing heals as best they can... that should allow them to catch up. I don't really see how the Blood tanking skill would be useful for a main tank.

Lifebloom stacks. Our maintank usually has two of them, which do a fairly significant portion of his overall healing. Doubling the ticks of all of the hots on you is the useful effect - bomb heals for 16k aren't really relevant.

Darkrenown · 09/16/08, 6:26 AM

A while back GC posted that she had a slight concern DK's don't get as much out of defence as Pallys and Warriors (Druids get less too, but they don't need defence to be uncritable now) and mentioned they might tweak what it does for DKs. Today she posted that one concern with DK tanks was a lack of Expertise:
WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Current List of DK Concerns:

DKs also ended up with low expertise, which is a problem, because failing to land an early strike can throw everything out of whack. Other tanks can get expertise fairly deeply in their trees. We might adjust DK trees to make sure expertise is available for more than just Blood.

So here's my idea: Have defence grant Expertise to DKs. If each point of Defence granted 0.04% Expertise then you'd have 5.6% - dodge/parry when you reach uncritable, which would be just right for even level mobs like instance trash. It would also take some of the sting out of having to gem for Defence.

tzenes · 09/16/08, 6:45 PM

I had a question about the ap scaling on deathknights and apparently you can`t search threads for the term ap because it has 2 letters.

Outside of the abilities with apc, to apply ap to an ability like Blood strike, one would apply ap to weapon damage first, then take the % of that? or does it apply afterword like rogue abilities (as most DK abilities have a bonus damage component)? or Both?

Additionally, while I`ve got you here, does Deathcoil and similar abilities obey the 16% resist of normal spells?

everwatch · 09/16/08, 6:48 PM

I've been toying around in Beta some now and working on my lowbie DK and on the 80 pre-made in Murmur as well. I can see what a lot of the rotations look like, and how they're supposed to work. However what are the agreed upon superior rotations for each spec? Regardless of DPS revamps atm. IT/PS lead offs followed by appropriate Scourge/Oblit/HS with runic dumps, and that's it? Or are there any other tricks? Frost and Blood spec's look fairly straight forward for DPS, but Unholy seems to have too many tricks. What are optimal builds focusing towards? Did Descration ever get fixed? How does Reaping stand up for points investment? Etc. What are the future of our builds leaning towards?

tzenes · 09/16/08, 8:44 PM

Originally Posted by everwatch

I've been toying around in Beta some now and working on my lowbie DK and on the 80 pre-made in Murmur as well. I can see what a lot of the rotations look like, and how they're supposed to work. However what are the agreed upon superior rotations for each spec? Regardless of DPS revamps atm. IT/PS lead offs followed by appropriate Scourge/Oblit/HS with runic dumps, and that's it? Or are there any other tricks? Frost and Blood spec's look fairly straight forward for DPS, but Unholy seems to have too many tricks. What are optimal builds focusing towards? Did Descration ever get fixed? How does Reaping stand up for points investment? Etc. What are the future of our builds leaning towards?

Ive been using BloodBoil in unholy over Blood Strike for extra dps (two death runes = 2nd Scourge)
but I`m not sure how much dps I`m loosing to make it worth it.

I might write up a bit of a spreadsheet to help me figure it out.

Septus · 09/16/08, 9:31 PM

I used a build with death rune mastery and the unholy death rune talent, so after the first rotation, my second would be three scourge strikes in a row.

tzenes · 09/16/08, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by tzenes

Ive been using BloodBoil in unholy over Blood Strike for extra dps (two death runes = 2nd Scourge)
but I`m not sure how much dps I`m loosing to make it worth it.

I might write up a bit of a spreadsheet to help me figure it out.

So I wrote up a basic spread sheet to look into this and based on my assessment, BB is superior in an unholy spec (now surprising since it benefits from black ice).

Here is the spread sheet I`ve been working with:
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting
and here is the (possibly broken) MSOffice version:
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

Things are still off. I know for example Blood Plague is doing more damage in game then I have there.

However, considering desecration still doesn`t seem to be working on beta, it seems close to accurate.

Edit: the apc is screwed on a couple talents, but I just fixed it.

everwatch · 09/17/08, 12:37 AM

Unholy: Right now I've been IT/PS open with Scourge Strikes and Blood Boils. I do not use Bloodstrike. Working in DND as needed for trash. I can't figure a better rotation. My recount isn't showing the dps well on Gargoyle/Corpse Explosion. I'm having a hard time figuring out how efficient these powers are.

◊ Bryne · 09/17/08, 5:30 AM

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Upcoming Death Knight Changes

Lots of changes, DPS and tanking buffs both, and some hints at upcoming glyphs. There's a few small retools of skills like DnD and UB, but overall these are pretty exciting. Pestilence!

DPS changes

-- Death Coil, Frost Strike, Death and Decay damage increased.
-- Strikes that scale with diseases changed so that the weapon damage, not just the flat damage, scales with the disease.
-- Double rune abilities damage increased: Obliterate, Howling Blast, Scourge Strike, Death Strike.
-- Unholy Blight no longer causes Blood Plague, but had its cooldown removed.
-- Several attack power coefficients increased.
-- Bloody Strikes and Scent of Blood swapped places.
-- Bladed Armor now turns armor into Strength (which then is turned into Parry).
-- Master of Ghouls' Ghoul now lasts until killed or similarly dismissed.
-- Ravenous Dead no longer affects Ghoul duration, but grants your rotting little buddy 60% more of your Str and Sta. (Stam goes from 30% of yours to ~50% of yours. Strength goes from 100% to 160%.)

Tanking changes

-- Frost Presence now grants 10% total health in addition to its current bonuses.
-- Blood Gorged, Rage of Rivendare and Tundra Stalker all grant 1/2/3/4/5 expertise.
-- Veteran of the Third War increased to 6/6/6 Str / Sta / Exp to match warriors.
-- Will of the Necropolis no longer grants expertise and now lowers Anti-Magic Shell cooldown.
-- Pestilence has no target limit. (It still has a radius limit.) Pesilence glyph now increases area.
-- Death and Decay no longer has a cower component, but a glyph can add that back.
-- Frigid Dreadplate now has a 100% chance for 2/4/6% miss but only on the DK.

Rewards for the selfless buffer

-- Abom's Might now grants 2% Strength at all times.
-- Improved Icy Talons now grants 2% haste at all times.
-- Ebon Plaguebringer now grants 3% crit at all times.

Runeforge changes

-- Lichbane now does 2% weapon damage as Fire, and double damage to undead.
-- Swordbreaking and Swordshattering add disarm duration reduction.
-- Spellbreaking and Spellshattering add silence duration reduction.
-- Cinderglacier reduced to 2 charges.

No doubt many awesome small tweaks I am forgetting.

Darkrenown · 09/17/08, 5:59 AM

A bit of detail on the changes from another thread:

After much discussion, here are the changes we made:

Unholy Blight -- does not cause Blood Plague. No cooldown. Lasts as long as we can make it last for the damage it does -- ideally 20 sec. Counts as a disease for purposes of DK abilities. It might be an okay tanking ability, but should do good damage in longer fights too. At 20 sec it might be perma up if you forsake other runic power abilities, which is probably fine. Remember we are buffing Death Coil too though.

Death and Decay -- the fear component became a glyph. This will allow base damage to come up, making it a more useful tanking and general AE ability.

Pestilence -- limited by its area (which stays the same) but no target limit. We found the argument compelling that without Challenging Shout, and since it requires an additional step to apply the disease, that this is probably fine. At worst, Pestilence's disease might have to come down a little or it might need a short cooldown to prohibit spamming, but I don't think any of you will mind. The glyph will change to enlarge its radius.

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Any chance for a change to Unholy Blight?

Mild Confusion · 09/17/08, 7:14 AM

Looks like they are trying to reinforce diseases as the overall class mechanic, not that I have a problem with that, I'm just glad they aren't going about it in a stupid way.

Bladed armor and the frost presence buffs are pretty sexy for tanking, depending on how much str it provides of coarse.

Kaveli · 09/17/08, 9:50 AM

any offical list of DK gyphs besides the ones they mentioned?

I think they'll be dumbing down more DK abilites to give them more gyph options.

edit: also they can up the damage on these base abilites by taking out the little extra perks.

Gograh · 09/17/08, 10:35 AM

I was going Blood for leveling but with this changes I think Unholy will be better.
UB without cooldown again (you have to use PS but whatever) and SS damage increased
And before this changes, DnD was ticking 100 at level 80. ridiculous. Gotta check how it is now.

Darkrenown · 09/17/08, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by Kaveli

any offical list of DK gyphs besides the ones they mentioned?

This was posted a while ago:

* Glyph of Dark Command - Increases the chance for your Dark Command ability to work successfully by 8%.
* Glyph of Blood Boil - Lowers the damage of your Blood Boil by 20% but causes it to slow affected targets for 5 sec. (Movement speed reduced by 30%.)
* Glyph of Strangulate - Increases the range of your Strangulate by 20 yards.
* Glyph of Chains of Ice - Your Chains of Ice causes 240 to 260 Frost damage in addition to its normal effect.
* Glyph of Anti-Magic Shell - Increases the duration of your Anti-Magic Shell by 5 sec but increases the cooldown by 15 sec.
* Glyph of Icebound Fortitude - Your Icebound Fortitude costs no runic power.
* Glyph of Death Grip - Increases the cooldown of Death Grip by 10 sec but stuns targets for 1 sec.
* Glyph of Death and Decay - Your Death and Decay spell deals 10% additional damage but the cooldown is increased by 10 sec.
* Glyph of Icy Touch - Your Icy Touch does 10% less damage but generate 10 additional runic power.
* Glyph of Unbreakable Armor - Unbreakable Armor grants an additional 5% parry chance but no longer increases your Strength.
* Glyph of Blood Tap - Your Blood Tap no longer causes damage to you.
* Glyph of Scourge Strike - Your Scourge Strike has a 25% chance to cause Blood Plague and Frost Fever.
* Glyph of Frost Strike - Frozen in place.
* Glyph of Frost Strike - Your Frost Strikes have a 10% chance to Freeze the target for 8 sec.
* Glyph of Plague Strike - Your Plague Strike does additional damage for each disease on the target.
* Glyph of Rune Strike - Increases the critical strike chance of your Rune Strike by 5% but increases cost by 5 runic power.
* Glyph of Obliterate - Your Obliterate strikes for 20% additional weapon damage, but does 50% less bonus damage per disease.
* Glyph of Bone Shield - Adds 1 additional charge to your Bone Shield.
* Glyph of Vampiric Blood - Your Vampiric Blood also heals you for 3% of your total health.
* Glyph of Death's Embrace - Your Death Coil refund 20 runic power when used to heal.
* Glyph of Horn of Winter - Horn of Winter costs 10 less runic power.
* Glyph of Raise Dead - Increases your Ghoul's total Strength by 10%.

Madrok · 09/17/08, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bryne

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Upcoming Death Knight Changes

Lots of changes, DPS and tanking buffs both, and some hints at upcoming glyphs. There's a few small retools of skills like DnD and UB, but overall these are pretty exciting. Pestilence!

Yeah, definitely sexy changes. So, whats going to be the most effectiv leveling- and raid-specc (dps)? After the unholy and frost nerfs I played as blood/frost, which was pretty ok. But thats going to change as it seems, huh?

What do you guys think? Any ideas / templates?

Thorakk · 09/17/08, 1:54 PM

Lowering the cool down on AMS is bound to be a very attractive talent. If for example it is 1 second per talent point making it a 12 second cool down that raises AMS uptime from 33% to around 41% which while having significant pvp implications (AMS>Strangulate>AMS) it also lowers magic damage by about 6% overall(with a completely dumb firing AMS rotation) if you were tanking.

tzenes · 09/17/08, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by Madrok

Yeah, definitely sexy changes. So, whats going to be the most effectiv leveling- and raid-specc (dps)? After the unholy and frost nerfs I played as blood/frost, which was pretty ok. But thats going to change as it seems, huh?

What do you guys think? Any ideas / templates?

Well the value of blight definitely went up, but it looks like its mostly designed to work with the current templates.

Thorakk · 09/17/08, 2:03 PM

Personally I would like to see blood/unholy damage with death strike, come into line with blood/frost damage with obliterate. I hate not having epidemic and I do enjoy blood spec.

edit: I should specify that I mean DPS and not the damage of the individual strikes.

Leaflock · 09/17/08, 2:33 PM

Originally Posted by Thorakk

Personally I would like to see blood/unholy damage with death strike, come into line with blood/frost damage with obliterate. I hate not having epidemic and I do enjoy blood spec.

edit: I should specify that I mean DPS and not the damage of the individual strikes.

I was working on something similar, doing tests on different rotations even though my death knight is only level 71. With a deep blood spec for dps, it seemed to me that putting remaining points in unholy was more desirable than putting them in frost. As frost you'd mainly just be going for Annihilation, which is powerful, but the other talents in unholy seem to provide additional perks.

I've also been hoping that a straight, disease-less HS HS OB OB rotation would not be the best for dps, as that seems much less interesting. What I found preliminarily on target dummies was that I was able to do the most damage with a IT PS HS HS DS -type rotation (I'm not going to type it all out), as opposed to HS HS OB OB. The diseases and a high crit percentage give you a good chance to weave in rune strikes, which makes up some damage lost by not using OB.

Regardless, that all got thrown out the window with the latest changes, so we'll have to see what new damage values look like. I agree that it would be nice if Deep Blood + Vicious Strikes, Epidemic, Necrosis and BCB (thus using Death Strike over Oblit) were at least even, if not better than Deep Blood + a minor in Frost. The ability to heal yourself for non-trivial amounts of health with DS as part of a regular rotation would be very nice.

Lanlaorn · 09/17/08, 5:19 PM

Question for beta testers: is Corpse Explosion worth the talent point? I've been trying to model it's contribution to DPS and TPS; I'm not very imrpessed by my numbers atm but perhaps my theory values are way off. How does it work out in practice?

Zurai · 09/17/08, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by Lanlaorn

Question for beta testers: is Corpse Explosion worth the talent point? I've been trying to model it's contribution to DPS and TPS; I'm not very imrpessed by my numbers atm but perhaps my theory values are way off. How does it work out in practice?

It's pretty useless. Very few people bother taking it because there's rarely a ready supply of bodies to explode. Even when you do take it, it essentially replaces Obliterate or Scourge Strike, and CE + IT is less damage than Oblit or SS.

Sinazeel · 09/17/08, 5:30 PM

It's an extra AoE ability, which is something that Unholy specializes in. Lets you do something with those Unholy runes when AoEing. It doesn't have a cooldown, so I'm sure there'll be times during hard AoE segments of fights that you can use the Death Runes from Pestilence/Bloodboil to rapidfire Corpse Explosions.

Also, it's called Corpse Explosion. What more do you NEED, man?!

Janraea · 09/17/08, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by Lanlaorn

Question for beta testers: is Corpse Explosion worth the talent point? I've been trying to model it's contribution to DPS and TPS; I'm not very imrpessed by my numbers atm but perhaps my theory values are way off. How does it work out in practice?

It's in my aoe farming build!