Step 1) spec into Blood Gorged, this will change your weapon damage to 110%
Step 2) turn on Blood Presense, this will change your weapon damage to 126% (110%*115% = 126.5%)
Step 3) Hit targetting dummy till Bloody Vengeance stacks 3 times, this will change your weapon damage to 138% (110%*115%*109% = 137.9%)
Conclusion: these all stack multiplicatively.
Hypothesis: all deathknight damage increasing abilities stack multiplicatively. this will be reflected in the next version of the spreadsheet
Well one is a buff, one is a talent, and one is a presence, this might account for why it is stacking multiplicatively. You will need to find a few bonuses that do the same thing to find if they are truly all multiplicative, perhaps black ice, and improved icy touch would be a good test, though you could also add in tundra stalker and merciless combat if you are really diligent.
Other stuff that can be confirmed:
-Rune Strike is lit up by Icy Touch and Plague Strike crits.
Rune Strike DOES get activated by a crit IT or PS. Once you use it (even if you miss/dodge/parry it) it's no longer active until the next crit IT/PS. Also, if you get a crit IT and PS (or two of either in a row) and try to use it after, you won't get a second (meaning you can't have it stack multiple times). I don't have an exact time for how long you have to use it, but it seems to be around 10 seconds.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Can anyone help me with the spreadsheet? Whenever I try and open it, I'm getting a message saying theres unreadable content and it has to recover some formula's, but it always ends up losing data. Im using the xls version.
I'm looking for some information about Runic Power generation. My searching has seemed to indicate that DK (before talents) generate 10 RP per ability that uses Runes. Is this correct? I want to make sure I'm somewhat accurate before screwing up too much graph paper...
Inadvertently a cold-blooded water-breathing vertebrate with a mood disorder.
god I wish I was beta testing and could go test some DK junk, I would answer all my questions.
Mainly how noone seems interested in the modifier for HB, Also some of the smaller things noone seems to take notice to.
However I havent quite had the time right now to keep up with the spreadsheets . Although I love how much work is going into them. Just try to keep up with DW vs 2h as these will be solid proof of how far off they are from each other. My Spreadsheet had them pretty damn close as nholy though.
Step 1) spec into Blood Gorged, this will change your weapon damage to 110%
Step 2) turn on Blood Presense, this will change your weapon damage to 126% (110%*115% = 126.5%)
Step 3) Hit targetting dummy till Bloody Vengeance stacks 3 times, this will change your weapon damage to 138% (110%*115%*109% = 137.9%)
I can confirm this, too. The last time I had checked, it came out on the character sheet as 136%, which supported what I said before (I swear, because I adjusted my explanation of how it worked to fit the 136% on the character sheet as I was sitting in front of it), so possibly something got corrected, as a lot of things are still being fixed. I tried it myself last night adding buffs like Hysteria, and they are all multiplicative, which is of course good for our dps.
However, I wouldn't jump to conclude that passive talents that boost abilities (like Black Ice, Outbreak, etc) are necessarily multiplicative. Caster theorycrafting is my weakness, so I'd need to do more research, really.
@ Zurm: You want to use Runic Strike immediately (or macro it in, which makes it boring but better) so that you get to use it for both crits. When I was trying out different specs on Ebon Hold dummies last night, though, it accounted for 1% total dps, which just makes the whole exercise of macroing to every ability for a pitiful amount of extra dps silly, and an uninteresting mechanic. I think it's an ability they need to look at and make more interesting or scrap.
@ s4dfish: I hadn't paid a lot of attention to runic power generation, mostly because a lot of specs have 2-3 abilities to dump it on and not many GCDs to use it in. I toss in a DC when there's a free GCD, and otherwise I save it up for a full power DRW. That said, most strikes do appear to generate 10 rp, now that I check. The talents are also very transparent about how much extra rp they add.
Abilities that do damage and cost one rune give you 10 runic power (blood/heart strike, plague strike, pestilence, and icy touch) Things that costs you 2 runes (Obliterate, Scourge Strike, and Howling Blast) gives you 15 runic power and things that cost 3 runes (Death and Decay) gives you 20 Runic Power. This is prior to the talents and such.
I'll test buff and talent stacking when I get home, which will be ~8 hours from now. If somebody beats me to it, great.
Methodology for testing:
1) Remove anything that procs. No Cinderglacier, no idol on the premade, don't use Blood Fury, etc.
2) Select a spell/ability that does the same amount of damage every time. I think Death Coil fits.
3) Swap into Unholy Presence.
4) Hit something with spell. Record damage.
5) Swap into Blood Presence and start testing the following effects. If you can partially talent into something (1/2 2h spec, for instance) then give us numbers for each partial as well as the final. Be sure to record the filler you reached to get down to each talent.
6) Swap into Unholy Presence. Start spec'ing into multiples of the above. Keep recording.
You don't have to take on the whole project by yourself, partial number sets are fine. If you do a partial set, be sure to record record your character's AP value as well as spec and numbers and make sure no one debuffs your dummy. To keep things simple, if you can use the level 80 premade with entirely default gear except the idol, go for that.
Why do people hate on the hungering cold so much? It's a pretty decent talent if you think about it. Having a warrior main, I compare it to intimidating shout, which is a warriors only real CC. That move has a 3 minute cool down. HC is very similar in function and can be used each minute. In arena, it would be used to buy healers a couple seconds if there was heavy pressure on them.
I would understand if your main has heavy CC's, it would seem weak in comparison.
Rune Strike DOES get activated by a crit IT or PS. Once you use it (even if you miss/dodge/parry it) it's no longer active until the next crit IT/PS. Also, if you get a crit IT and PS (or two of either in a row) and try to use it after, you won't get a second (meaning you can't have it stack multiple times). I don't have an exact time for how long you have to use it, but it seems to be around 10 seconds.
I've noticed some strange behavior with rune strike activating. It seems like there's a delay of 1-2 seconds between a crit IT/PS and rune strike lighting up. For me it's enough that if I cast IT, crit, and then use my next GCD for a "/cast rune strike /cast plague strike" macro, rune strike won't be lit by the time I cast plague strike. On the other hand, I've been able to crit IT, crit PS, THEN hit rune strike, and have rune strike immediately become lit again (although on cooldown) as the game registers the second crit.
Minor detail, but it explains accounts of rune strike proccing off abilities that don't cause diseases. (It's not, it just looks like it because of the delay.)
"What the poet laments holds for the mathematician. That he writes his works with the blood of his heart."
– Ludwig Boltzmann
Abilities that do damage and cost one rune give you 10 runic power (blood/heart strike, plague strike, pestilence, and icy touch) Things that costs you 2 runes (Obliterate, Scourge Strike, and Howling Blast) gives you 15 runic power and things that cost 3 runes (Death and Decay) gives you 20 Runic Power. This is prior to the talents and such.
Thanks for the clarification.
Inadvertently a cold-blooded water-breathing vertebrate with a mood disorder.
I'm not sure anyone hates, it's just that this thread has mostly been about trying to pin down the numbers on dps rotations.
From a PvP perspective, I think Hungering Cold is a lot of fun, but currently it's hard to justify getting enough points to get al lthe way down there, especially as Howling Blast is in a state of flux. Right now it feels like HB is the hump you have to get over to justify reaching HC in a PvP build, and right now, Unholy is basically overflowing with gravy for PvE and PvP.
I'm looking forward to the full frost PvP spec as well, even if it's worse than Unholy in the end, just to check it out.
For these DPS comparisons is the ghoul being taken into effect for unholy dps? Ive been experimenting with my own as unholy and he puts out some high numbers.
I realize that with bosses having high AoE and the ghoul not posessing any avoidance to my knowledge he could be hard to keep up; That glyph that gives him 20% more of your strength could greatly help unholy PvE
Minor detail, but it explains accounts of rune strike proccing off abilities that don't cause diseases. (It's not, it just looks like it because of the delay.)
That's interesting. I wonder if it's related to Chill of the Grave's +5 RP on IT being slow. I didn't check Oblit, HB, or Chains, but on IT it's very noticeable. You can watch your RP bar go 20, 25 with the naked eye. Might be worth further testing.
I've noticed some strange behavior with rune strike activating. It seems like there's a delay of 1-2 seconds between a crit IT/PS and rune strike lighting up. For me it's enough that if I cast IT, crit, and then use my next GCD for a "/cast rune strike /cast plague strike" macro, rune strike won't be lit by the time I cast plague strike. On the other hand, I've been able to crit IT, crit PS, THEN hit rune strike, and have rune strike immediately become lit again (although on cooldown) as the game registers the second crit.
Minor detail, but it explains accounts of rune strike proccing off abilities that don't cause diseases. (It's not, it just looks like it because of the delay.)
I've noticed this too... sometimes. That's my major hesitation with Leaflock's macroing suggestion, but he has an extremely good idea if it worked perfectly. Considering there is much tuning to be done, and the beta servers are about as stable as a semi balanced on a pin, we can't make any concrete assumptions... yet.
As for additional knowledge... it seems to me that two death knights attacking the same target do not gain the primary disease benefits of the other. For example... lets say I'm with a friend (we can call him John, and I'll call myself Dave):
John hits a target with IT and PS. Diseases are applied, and he lets an SS go, and gets the bonus damage. Dave does NOT use IT or PS, performs an SS at the same time, and it hits as if no diseases are on the target.
I suspect this is an intentional mechanic for 25 mans, to save someone from being the disease b*tch. I just felt that those who don't have a beta key might wish to know this.
Anything else people want me to test tonight? Not sure I'll have time, as I'm trying to get to 80 by this weekend for guild 10/25 mans.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
It seems to me that SS is doing an underwhelming amount of damage compared to Obliterate. I used a premade DK and used the following damage rotation(PS,IT, Pest, Obil) on the level 80 target dummy and it seemed to yield upwards of 300-400 dps over (PS,IT, Pest, SS). Since I'm at work I don't have all the data in front of me but I'll do some more testing/parsing and come back with some figures. The spec I used was Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. Since Unholy DKs spend so much time stacking diseases it isn't really necessary to spec in to annihilation to avoid oblit consuming diseases and those points could be used towards icy talons.
Abilities that do damage and cost one rune give you 10 runic power (blood/heart strike, plague strike, pestilence, and icy touch) Things that costs you 2 runes (Obliterate, Scourge Strike, and Howling Blast) gives you 15 runic power and things that cost 3 runes (Death and Decay) gives you 20 Runic Power. This is prior to the talents and such.
What patch did this change happen? It was 10 RP(w/o talents) for all skills requiring a rune regardless of the number of runes, and I don't remember reading that change.
It seems to me that SS is doing an underwhelming amount of damage compared to Obliterate. I used a premade DK and used the following damage rotation(PS,IT, Pest, Obil) on the level 80 target dummy and it seemed to yield upwards of 300-400 dps over (PS,IT, Pest, SS). Since I'm at work I don't have all the data in front of me but I'll do some more testing/parsing and come back with some figures. The spec I used was Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. Since Unholy DKs spend so much time stacking diseases it isn't really necessary to spec in to annihilation to avoid oblit consuming diseases and those points could be used towards icy talons.
Consensus currently appears to be that Scourgestrike in its current form is quite underpowered for its cost and will be updated. Having an untalented unglyphed Obliterate giving more DPS is simply not acceptable.
Well, you need to take into account Target Dummies have no armor. The big thing about SS is that it dos shadow damage, and till usually come close to oblit or surpass it due to this. Also it seems that its damage is based on having 4 diseases up, whereas oblit is not.
However, it shouldnt be doing THAT much less even with 0 armor (although losing 30% damage on oblit from a normal armored mob would still be significant) and that proves how the lack of any decent scaling on its damage from normalized weapon damage will hurt it in the long run.
Also on the multiplicitives - I was pretty sure overall damage increases (like blood presence, or those that apply to the character sheet) ARE multiplicitive, as they are applied after bonuses to individual skills. The bonuses to individual skills are not multiplicitive. This is things like black ice, outbreak, Tundra Stalker and the unholy equivalent, ect. These affect specific or groups of specific abilities, and thus act differently.
However blood presence and blood gorged affect overall damage and act differently. I think because of bloody vengence's specifications to increase damage it shouldnt be multiplicitive, but if its showing in the character pane, that means its being applied after the specific bonuses.
Sounds like I was right and DKs are quite complicated on the bonus front due to having way too many of them. No wonder blizz keeps removing more and more multipliers. If they truely are multiplicitive then that would cause damages to scale way more than probobly intended.
As for additional knowledge... it seems to me that two death knights attacking the same target do not gain the primary disease benefits of the other.
Hasn't it been like that for a while? Is untalented Oblit still removing everyone's diseases though?
Originally Posted by Mild Confusion
Why do people hate on the hungering cold so much? It's a pretty decent talent if you think about it. Having a warrior main, I compare it to intimidating shout, which is a warriors only real CC. That move has a 3 minute cool down. HC is very similar in function and can be used each minute. In arena, it would be used to buy healers a couple seconds if there was heavy pressure on them.
I have a warrior main too, so I know the horrors of having no escape ability, but I still hardly use HC despite picking it up "just in case" every time I go Frost. DKs rarely need it in PvE though. Pulled too many adds? If you're Frost or Unholy you can AoE them down while poping Lichborne/Unbreakable armour/Bone shield and healing with Death Strike, if you're Blood you've got less AoE but more self-healing. Either way it's rare rare I need to pop HC (or wish I had it when not Frost) and run for it.
HC does seem like it'd be decent for instance trash and PvP, btu I;ve yet to do either while Frost specced.
Originally Posted by Cross
What patch did this change happen? It was 10 RP(w/o talents) for all skills requiring a rune regardless of the number of runes, and I don't remember reading that change.
Well, you need to take into account Target Dummies have no armor. The big thing about SS is that it dos shadow damage, and till usually come close to oblit or surpass it due to this. Also it seems that its damage is based on having 4 diseases up, whereas oblit is not.
However, it shouldnt be doing THAT much less even with 0 armor (although losing 30% damage on oblit from a normal armored mob would still be significant) and that proves how the lack of any decent scaling on its damage from normalized weapon damage will hurt it in the long run.
Also on the multiplicitives - I was pretty sure overall damage increases (like blood presence, or those that apply to the character sheet) ARE multiplicitive, as they are applied after bonuses to individual skills. The bonuses to individual skills are not multiplicitive. This is things like black ice, outbreak, Tundra Stalker and the unholy equivalent, ect. These affect specific or groups of specific abilities, and thus act differently.
However blood presence and blood gorged affect overall damage and act differently. I think because of bloody vengence's specifications to increase damage it shouldnt be multiplicitive, but if its showing in the character pane, that means its being applied after the specific bonuses.
Sounds like I was right and DKs are quite complicated on the bonus front due to having way too many of them. No wonder blizz keeps removing more and more multipliers. If they truely are multiplicitive then that would cause damages to scale way more than probobly intended.
The training dummies definitely have armor I just hit the level 55, 75, 80, and boss level ones for greatly different amounts.
Are you sure they have no armor? I was told, and under the impression, that the Level ?? Boss dummies had armor values associated with them. If that is not the case then I am even more disappointed with Blood's DPS output thus far.
1) The behavior I've observed with Rune Strike is that I'll get a Plague Strike crit, and it won't light up or be usable. I'll then use Icy Touch, and regardless of how IT hit/crits, Rune Strike will then light up. Until I cast the second ability, the voice tells me "that isn't ready yet" for Rune Strike from the first.
2) Some target dummies must have armor. My numbers are very different between Ebon Hold dummies and Orgrimmar dummies. Ebon Hold dummies give the kind of results I see running instances and against my-level mobs. Incidentally, I did more dps with a blood spec with cooldowns against these dummies than I did with unholy, given SS's current state. This is ghoul-less dps of course, but the ghoul adds a complicated dimension to the whole "balanced dps" thing, to put it lightly.
3) I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about Vank, but I noticed this when I tested out Frost Spec rotations. Any rotation that should've worked on paper got messed up because of those two runes. I'm not sure if it's the Rime procs, or something wrong with Blood of the North, but I'd always have odd runes coming up or being down when they shouldn't. I didn't spend enough time on it to figure out exactly what it was. And now I must go.
I believe it's been noted that the Boss Target Dummy had 10,900 armor. So many threads to follow, I can't remember where I saw it, but somewhere on this web site.
note: This was a patch or two ago and the Dummy was in The Sewers in Dalaran. I suppose this could have changed.
09/22/08, 9:29 AM
. Although I love how much work is going into them. Just try to keep up with DW vs 2h as these will be solid proof of how far off they are from each other. My Spreadsheet had them pretty damn close as nholy though.
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