• Bluefish

Anecdotal, but I don't recall any instances of Blood of the North not converting my Blood Runes during my testing last night. Can you consistently reproduce using Blood Strike and not having Death Runes be created? Are you sure you're not just getting miss/dodge/parries? If you didn't notice the latter, you might look at your runes 10 seconds later and say "Wait, shouldn't you be Death?" when in reality the rune has been ready for 8.5 seconds.

 

tzenes

Ok, alot of questions this morning I'll do my best to answer them:

But first, the latest sheet: RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

The xls version is always unsupported.
I don't have MSOffice so I can't test it.

I would suggest you download openoffice (openoffice.org), its free.

Two are talents: Blood Gorged and Blood Vengence.
Neither RoR nor Tundra show up on character sheet so are hard to confirm and I'll explain why later in a minute

If you looked on the previous page you'll see I tried to do this twice. While I was able to confirm the ap scaling, the standard deviation on attacks is large enough that your sample size will have to be over 10000 hits per test before you can preform a 2T test for a change as small as 1.5%. If you would like to preform this test, feel free. At this point I'm going to go with multiplicative.

At this point, no.

GC recently announce ghoul dps is too high and will be nerfed.

Additionally, it'll take a number of tests to figure it out, so I felt it was best to wait on it.

Blood Gorged, Tundra and RoR all use the same mechanic.
Whether Black Ice, Out Break and Morbidity do is an important question (as two are skill specific), but I'd be surprised at this point if they weren't given questions of: where would you add them? to which skills (as many are multiplicative with each other)? etc.

The major remaining question is whether abilities that increase total damage increase the weapon damage first and then the total damage of skills which are weapon damage dependent, or not.

IE: Scourge Strike doing (weapon damage*.3*1.15 +30)*1.15 or (weapon damage*.3+30)*1.15

 

Cloudgatherer

I run around quite a bit as a 10/51/10 build, and HC is a good ability for trash in instances, but I tend to forget to use it. The problem with HC is the fact that the best times to use it are at the start of a pull, or when some unexpected adds come in. The problem with the former, is that I rarely have 60 RP sitting around at the start of a pull, though when I do chain pull I can get this and I do use HC. The problem with the latter is that it is a pretty rare case in regular 5 mans.

Another problem with HC is that while the freeze effect is quite powerful, just about every class has a multi-target ability and is using them regularly (breaking the freeze). This isn't really that big of a problem with a well disciplined team if you tell them ahead of time you are using HC, but I can't tell you how many times HC has effectively been the equivalent of a IT+Pest (2 runes) in trade for 60 RP simply due to all the multi-target damage flying around. Sometimes that's what you want for the follow up HB, other times you prefer they stay frozen at least a few seconds.

 

• Bluefish

You used abilities with big damage ranges. I suggested using something with no damage range, which requires 1 test per condition. At the worst, you can equip a weapon with a damage range of 2.

 

Eishara

I was bored earlier today so I was still playing around with Haste and respecced to Improved Icy Talons and Master of Ghouls. No it's not really a useful spec but I was curious to see what external haste would do to the Ghoul ie, something like Windfury. As you can see the pet double dips, gaining Haste from the IIT effect on itself and the IIT buff on my character. The weapon used in the screenshot below is a De-Raged Waraxe, 3.5 speed.



In other news, still no feedback about whether this is intended or not so if a player with American beta access could post it in the big Death Knight bug thread on the Beta Death Knight forums I'd be grateful.

 

Nacht

I haven't seen any mention of this from anyone, but I have been noticing that when I use a rune ability that gets dodged, parried, or misses, the CD on the rune or runes used for that ability is only 2 seconds, instead of the usual 10 seconds. I haven't had a chance to thoroughly test and confirm this. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I hadn't noticed this until one of the recent builds was implemented. Although, I also hadn't been using a numerical rune cooldown timer until recently, either. I don't think it is an error with the timer, because I have been able to use those runes after the 2 seconds.

 

Septus

Uh, I thought runes were just not used on misses/dodges/parries, and that the cooldown, would simply be your GCD.

 

Nacht

Strange, because I've definitely received the 'rune not available' message after having a strike dodged/parried/miss and trying to re-strike with the same strike. Apparently I'm either retarded, or just been confused due to lag.

 

• Chicken

Runes become unavailable for ~3 seconds if an ability using them fails to connect.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Tacitus

It's slightly longer than your GCD, I think it's 2-3ish seconds.

/but with the lag on the EU realms, 3 seconds is nothing
//best I've had was 10 secs during primetime

Brotherhood, Peace, Unity

Welcome back, Comrade

 

Lujaar

I've noticed that with Blood of the North too. There seems to be a small chance that the rune won't convert properly. While I was playing around with frost the other day, I'd start off with IT-PS-BS-BS-HB and frequently end up with one death rune, one blood rune. I've also ended a fight with two death runes up, and then had one of them revert back to a blood rune within the next couple seconds while the other one stayed as a death rune.

As for rime, as far as I can tell rime does nothing right now. Howling blast costs runes buff or no buff.


EDIT: Here's one alternate explanation based on Tacitus's post above:

You're grinding and you killed a mob within the last 10 seconds, using 8 runes (IT-PS-BS-BS-HB-Oblit). You move on to a new mob. You have no diseases up, two death runes, and four total runes lit - DDFU. You throw up IT-PS and plague strike gets parried. You now have nothing but death runes and you're spamming plague strike on your next GCD, consuming one of your death runes. Your last two runes come up and your unholy rune clears from the first parried plague strike, which gives you DFUU. You howling blast, leaving you with DU, and then oblit, living you with no runes.

Your runes now come up out of order: F, then B 2 gcds later, then FU then UB. I know I've seen runes come up in that order seemingly for no reason before.

"What the poet laments holds for the mathematician. That he writes his works with the blood of his heart."
– Ludwig Boltzmann

 

Thorakk

I've also had death rune mastery do something strange where when it misses it will put one rune on cooldown(10s) and treat the other rune like it missed (3s) and convert the 3 second rune to a death rune.

On a somewhat related note I really hope they change death rune "AI" to perfer death runes of the type that would normally be used (example if you have BBDDDD and you IT PS BS BS you will end up with UU refreshing before FF)

 

• Bluefish

Presence and Talent % modifier stacking data dump:

Echoes of Lordaeron was up, but dummies are mechanical, so no problem there. Damage numbers are from Death Coil, which does fixed damage (may vary +/-1 because of the way WoW handles fractions, 55.5 is 55, 56, 55, 56 across multiple applications).

496 - no talents, unholy presence

Blood Presence
571 - blood presence (496 * 1.15 = 570.4)
Conclusion: Blood Presence works as expected (increases DC damage by 15%).

Spec'd into BB, Butch.
Two-Handed Weapon Specialization
571 - Blood Presence, 1/2 2HWS
571 - Blood Presence, 2/2 2HWS
Conclusion: Two-Handed Weapon Specialization does not affect Death Coil. (Wonder if it affects IT, disease ticks, etc.)

Spec'd into Subv, DRM, Spell Def, Vend, MoB, BS, Dark Conv, RT, Imp RT, MoM, HS, VB, BW, BA, WotN. Verified that DC damage numbers did not change.
Blood Gorged
506 - Unholy Presence, 1/5 BG (496 * 1.02 = 505.92)
516 - Unholy Presence, 2/5 BG (496 * 1.04 = 515.84)
526 - Unholy Presence, 3/5 BG (496 * 1.06 = 525.76)
536 - Unholy Presence, 4/5 BG (496 * 1.08 = 535.68)
546 - Unholy Presence, 5/5 BG (496 * 1.10 = 545.60)
Conclusion: Blood Gorged works as expected.

Blood Presence + Blood Gorged
582 - Blood Presence, 1/5 BG (506 * 1.15 = 581.9)
593 - Blood Presence, 2/5 BG (516 * 1.15 = 593.4)
605 - Blood Presence, 3/5 BG (526 * 1.15 = 604.9)
616 - Blood Presence, 4/5 BG (536 * 1.15 = 616.4)
628 - Blood Presence, 5/5 BG (546 * 1.15 = 627.9)
Conclusion: Blood Gorged and Blood Presence stack multiplicatively. Using 5/5 as an example: If it were additive, we would expect 496 * 1.2 = 595. We instead got 496 * 1.15 * 1.10 ~= 627.

Spec'd into Toughness. No Bladed Armor, so this had no effect on AP.
Black Ice + Blood Gorged
562 - Unholy Presence, 5/5 BG, 1/5 BI (546 * 1.03 = 562.38)
579 - Unholy Presence, 5/5 BG, 2/5 BI
595 - Unholy Presence, 5/5 BG, 3/5 BI
611 - Unholy Presence, 5/5 BG, 4/5 BI
628 - Unholy Presence, 5/5 BG, 5/5 BI (546 * 1.15 = 627.9)
Conclusion: Black Ice and Blood Gorged stack multiplicatively. 496 * 1.10 * 1.15 ~= 627.

Blood Presence + Blood Gorged + Black Ice
647 - Blood Presence, 5/5 BG, 1/5 BI
665 - Blood Presence, 5/5 BG, 2/5 BI
684 - Blood Presence, 5/5 BG, 3/5 BI
703 - Blood Presence, 5/5 BG, 4/5 BI
722 - Blood Presence, 5/5 BG, 5/5 BI (628 * 1.15 = 722.2)
Conclusion: Blood Presence, Blood Gorged, and Black Ice stack multiplicatively. 496 * 1.10 * 1.15 * 1.15 = 721.55. Close enough!

Hypothesis: All DK % damage modifier talents and buffs are multiplicative.

I have other stuff I have to get done tonight, so if someone could test Tundra Stalker, Rage of Rivendare, and Morbidity, that would be great.

 

Leaflock

Nice work Bluefish. When you think about it, (or rather, the more I thought about it today), most of the abilities should logically be multiplicative, unless they explicitly say they modify the same type of thing. That is, with Death Coil for instance, Morbidity increases Death Coil's damage. Then, Black Ice increases all your shadow damage. Then, Blood Presence increases all damage. If they weren't multiplicative, they wouldn't be doing exactly what they say they do.

As for Two-Handed Weapon Specialization, it naturally should not modify Death Coil, or any other spells-- melee strikes only. Additionally, what I've observed so far is it's calculated first-- the 4% modifies the weapon damage value directly before any other modifiers apply. For example, using Ingvar's Monolithic Cleaver (base damage 332-499, speed 3.2) with my current attack power of 1474, my damage should be:

332 + (1474/14 * 3.2) = 668.914
499 + 1474/14 * 3.2) = 835.914

With 2h weapon spec's 4% bonus:

668.914*1.04 = 695.671
835.914*1.04 = 869.351

The melee damage tooltip displays: "695-869 x 126%", with Blood Gorged and Blood Presence being the modifiers there.

Anyway, I'm going to play around with the melee strikes to see exactly how they are calculated, and I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Leaflock

Alrighty, I did some tests with Plague Strike. I used a 2h on the mob (non-boss) target dummies in Ebon Hold, the ones about my level. I took off any damage-modifying runeforges and went to town. I chose Plague Strike because it's the easiest-- instant weapon attack, no disease modifiers. Plague Strike (Rank 4)'s tooltip reads "30% weapon damage + 17". So, the point of this is to see exactly what counts as "weapon damage", and what might modify it.

My previous guess was that "weapon damage" means the normalized weapon damage, pre-modifiers. I'm using the same axe again, with a base damage range of 332-499, or an average of 415.5. My untalented attack power is 1184. The average normalized weapon damage value should therefore be:

415.5 + (1184/14 * 3.3) = 694.586

Also, note that the Ebon Hold dummies do have armor, which worked out to be about a 40% damage reduction, and that makes a convenient enough number to use.

Untalented
Expected formula: [(694.586 * .3) + 17] * .6 = 135.225
Actual average hit value: 134

Outbreak: +30% damage to Plague Strike
Expected formula: [(694.586 * .3) + 17] * 1.3 * .6 = 175.793
Actual average hit value: 175

Two-Handed Specialization: 4% more damage with 2h weapons
Expected formula: [(694.586 * 1.04 * .3) + 17] * .6 = 140.226
Actual average hit value: 134

Outbreak and 2h Spec
Expected formula: [(694.586 * 1.04 * .3) + 17] * 1.3 * .6 = 182.294
Actual average hit value: 175

Outbreak and Blood Presence (15% to all damage)
Expected formula: [(694.586 * .3) + 17] * 1.3 * 1.15 * .6 = 202.162
Actual average hit value: 203

Outbreak, Blood Presence, and 2h spec
Expected formula: [(694.586 * 1.04 * .3) + 17] * 1.3 * 1.15 * .6 = 209.639
Actual average hit value: 210

So, given how close most of the values are, I think it's safe to say that our strikes probably follow the rules of other instant melee attacks. Weapon damage is normalized, and buffs are added later multiplicatively. The results with 2h spec are kind of odd-- it's possible that I got a streak of weaker attacks, but the fact they came out to exactly the average without the talent is suspect. Either 2h spec isn't intended to work with strikes, or it's a bug. The fact that the values matched the expected in blood presence makes me lean toward the latter-- perhaps 2h spec doesn't work in frost presence. I'll test that more later. Otherwise, I'm not going to do the disease-scaling attacks for now, since we know that changes are on the horizon, so I'm content to wait and see what those look like post-buff.

 

Ultramax

I just hit some dummies naked while using a bastard sword (5-8 damage) and 2 points in Two Hand Spec did increase plague strike damage by 2 points. Both in Unholy and in Frost presence.

 

klineshrike

This was what I was talking about. Blues tests all tested things that affect overall damage with one talent that does not. You need two talents that do not (he would have needed a test with morbidity AND black ice) to see additives. In this case, Two handed spec is a specific and non overall damage increasing talent. So is outbreak. These are additive and thus indicate why your actual is lower. Because you are making them multiplicitive in your expected.

Tundra and RoR are not the same as Blood Gorged because they have specifications. The affect spells and abilities. Not final damage. They may still act like an overall damage buff I dont know, its and odd talent to begin with.

If you want a true test, run IT with Imp IT, Black Ice, and Glacier Rot. IT has a very small variance and these three talents should be additive. Do so WITHOUT blood presence, bloody vengence, blood gorged, tundra ect. See what you get then.

 

• Zurm

For those who didn't see this, it was posted yesterday (link). Here's some highlights:

The blue also mentions that the training dummies have some messed up mechanics, so they may not be the best source of tests after all. In addition, I remember reading that our ghouls are about to be nerfed (if I find the link, I'll add it here). If this is the case, then at least for leveling a SS buff is going to be required.

Edit, found Ghoul post link: HERE

 

Andread

Just curious if Death Strike would be very useful for generating threat, considering the additional threat from healing? The DS glyph (2% more healing per 5 runic power) could help and I'd expect unholy would benefit even more by having extra diseases.

 

Lanlaorn

I haven't actaully bothered to do the math but at first glance threat from Death Strike wouldn't be anything special since heals only generate 50% aggro as corresponding damage. Something like Obliterate or SS should be the same in aggro, although I guess it is nice that you're not penalized TPS wise if you decide to need to use DS to stay alive.

 

Leaflock

I wasn't testing whether or not the modifiers were additive. None of them (at least for Plague Strike) logically should be, anyway. My test was simply to see if the strike worked the way an instant melee attack should-- tzenes was asking if blood presence modified both weapon damage and overall damage, and my assertion was that it did not. My hypothesis was that "weapon damage" in the tooltip means simply normalized weapon damage, and additionally my guess was that 2h weapon spec increased that damage value specifically, before other modifiers. Given the discrepancy in values with 2h weapon spec in Frost Presence, I can't be sure that's the case yet.

However, the point was that everything else worked as expected, within a tiny margin of error. Weapon damage is normalized, and the modifiers that affect it are multiplied after the ability's damage is calculated. This all might seem obvious, but it's worth getting it right for the spreadsheet and future calculations-- it's nice to know that we understand how it works. Blood Presence doesn't apply twice, nor should it, so that should answer tzenes' question.

Also, it wasn't just that the numbers with 2h spec without blood presence were lower than expected, they were exactly the same as without 2h spec, all other things equal. If it were additive with anything, as you're suggesting, we'd at least see a somewhat different number. Besides that, it performs as expected multiplicatively when Blood Presence is up. Something's fishy there, but I don't think that means any of those bonuses are adding.

Here's my current thought about additive versus multiplicative modifiers. Any talent or buff modifying a different "category" of damage should be multiplicative. 2h spec modifies weapon damage. Then, Outbreak modifies Plague Strike damage. Blood Presence, Blood Gorged, and Bloody Vengeance modify total physical or overall damage, and even though some of those cover similar "categories", we've seen that those are all multiplicative too. Really, there's nothing yet to suggest that any of these are additive.

My point with this test was to see how the melee strikes worked. Scourge Strike deals shadow damage, but zurm's blizz quote confirms it's a melee instant attack, and is subject to all the appropriate rules. I think we'll find it follows a similar formula, once it's working correctly again. I haven't touched spells yet-- Icy Touch is going to be different from a melee attack in that regard, though I'd guess the multipliers from talents, etc, would work similarly, and blues' numbers with death coil back that up.

 

Leaflock

Yeah. On top of that, remember that threat from healing only derives from actual healing done. If you're at full health, you'll get no healing threat from Death Strike. I'd bet most of the time you're better off just doing the most damage possible for threat.

 

• Bluefish

More talent tests. Since we 'know' Blood Presence is a 15% multiplier, I'll just test in Unholy.

148 - Base DC.
496 - DC untalented in Unholy Presence with 2164 AP.

Morbidity
520 - 1/3 Morbidity
543 - 2/3 Morbidity
567 - 3/3 Morbidity
Conclusion: Something odd is going on here. We can rule out Morbidity affecting only the base damage of DC (way too low) and also Morbidity only affecting the AP multiplier (still too low). My best guess is Morbidity is using the wrong multiplier. A 1.048 multiplier (instead of 1.05) fits all observed numbers.

Spec'd into Toughness. No Bladed Armor, no problems.
Morbidity + Black Ice
584 - 1/5 BI, 3/3 Morbidity (567 * 1.03 = 584.01)
602 - 2/5 BI, 3/3 Morbidity
618 - 3/5 BI, 3/3 Morbidity
635 - 4/5 BI, 3/3 Morbidity
652 - 5/5 BI, 3/3 Morbidity (567 * 1.15 = 652.05)
Conclusion: Morbidity and Black Ice stack multiplicatively.

Spec'd into... a bunch of stuff. Re-checked, DC still hits for 652, so we're good.
Morbidity + Black Ice + Tundra Stalker
652 - 1/5 TS (!!)
652 - 2/5 TS
652 - 3/5 TS
652 - 4/5 TS
652 - 5/5 TS
Conclusion: Tundra Stalker does not work for Death Coil. (bug, reported) I did have Frost Fever up for this test.

 

Darkrenown

Not a terribly helpful post from GC there, the problem is SS is hitting for far less than the last patch, not that it doesn't hit/crit etc, the damage is just less.