I haven't actaully bothered to do the math but at first glance threat from Death Strike wouldn't be anything special since heals only generate 50% aggro as corresponding damage. Something like Obliterate or SS should be the same in aggro, although I guess it is nice that you're not penalized TPS wise if you decide to need to use DS to stay alive.
I worked through the math and Death Strike theoretically always outpeforms Scourge Strike for TPS and outperforms Obliterate at 2 diseases with over 500 Normalized weapon damage. The equations used are :
W = Normalized Weapon Damage
D = # of Diseases
Death Strike threat = (W * 0.6 + 178.2) * (1 + D/2)
Obliterate Threat = (W + 217) + (108.5 * D)
Scourge Strike Threat = (W * 0.65 + 196.95) + (98.47 * D)
This is using the max ranks of each of the abilities with numbers pulled from MMO Champion. Note that this is without factoring armor reduction which would favor Scourge Strike and talents which might favor each of the three differently based on spec.
Since Death Strike threat essentially scales with W*D*Constant it will eventually outperform anything that scales as (W*Constant + D*Constant) given large enough values of W.
Originally Posted by Leaflock
Yeah. On top of that, remember that threat from healing only derives from actual healing done. If you're at full health, you'll get no healing threat from Death Strike. I'd bet most of the time you're better off just doing the most damage possible for threat.
This seems to be the major limiting factor, but at high normalized weapon damages with 4x diseases the threat per use is around 50% more than with Obliterate. In a situation where even half of your healing from DS produces threat it still may outperform Obliterate. I imagine this will be more useful for threat in 5-mans and perhaps in 10-mans that you overgear and can sacrifice a healer for an extra DPS than in 25 mans.
Below are the graphs showing the behaviour with respect to weapon damage and diseases.
Not a terribly helpful post from GC there, the problem is SS is hitting for far less than the last patch, not that it doesn't hit/crit etc, the damage is just less.
Yeah, he was a bit misled on that since regardless of miss/crits, the hit damage was off. However, the rest of that discussion explains a bit more:
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
We lowered the percent weapon damage on Scourge Strike because it was the only ability that ended up scaling too well. Several other abilities didn't scale well enough and we made adjustments accordingly. But even after those changes, at some gear level Scourge Strike would have outpaced other DK abilities, forcing everyone to go Unholy. Bypassing armor is just a huge benefit.
...
You have a bugged version of Scourge Strike, so a lot of the feedback on it's power isn't going to be very useful unless you can remember what it was like in the previous build. In that build, there should be very few situations in which Obliterate does more damage for an Unholy DK (such as a mob that is immune to Shadow damage).
So, it is supposed to do less damage, but more than Oblit for Unholy DKs. Additionally, it's bugged. There's an edited post earlier that says "Scourge Strike is fixed", but I haven't had time to check what it looks like right now.
I'm curious how Command is going to function for the DK. I'm making the assumption that it will obviously affect the ghoul, but does the ghoul have to be spec'd into "pet" talents for the bonus to apply? And would it apply to the gargoyle or blood worms?
From my understanding of command, it applies to any true pet (you need a petbar for it) of a hunter, warlock, or death knight. It's definitely worth testing, however, to be sure.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
We're starting to get a lot of PvP data in, and several classes are having trouble beating rogues, Frost mages, Ret paladins and death knights.
Death knights have a lot of options at the moment, which is cool, but makes it really hard for another player to catch a break and burn a death knight down. So we're going to try some changes. I won't sugar-coat it -- these are nerfs.
-- The ghoul is doing too much damage. He is receiving 100% of death knight strength, which is much higher than most pets.
-- Chains of Ice is going back to be being dispellable. It is probably the best snare in the game at the moment, for a class that already has Death Grip.
-- The same is true of both Strangulate and Mind Freeze. Strangulate's cooldown is going to go up. Mind Freeze remains the quick interrupt.
-- We're increasing the cooldown on Anti-Magic Shell. We don't think this will hurt DKs in PvE much, and it still leaves you with Icebound Fortitude to use often.
As always, if we overdid it, if DKs are now too weak in PvP, we'll adjust. But we were at the point where we weren't getting a lot of good numbers because some fights were just over too quickly.
I've included all of the latest work on multipliers
I've finally added 2handed spec into the damage calculations (now that we have an accurate idea of what it does)
I've changed Scourge Strike, Frost Strike and Heart Strike to use Oblit, DC and Blood (respectively) if you are not spec'd into them
I put in accurate numbers for Humans at level 80
I put in all the starting DK gear for Murmur
The Paper Doll should accurately reflect a starting human dk on murmur (the cloak enchant doesn't work right now so I've just not placed it on her, and the sigal is an approximation)
I've added spaghetti logic to deal with the socket bonuses for now, I'll probably replace it later
The Item buffs are still Level 70 gear and will be updated soon.
If anyone has been adding items I'd appreciate if they uploaded their version.
Additionally, let me know of any bugs you find, I keep hunting for them but I don't always find them.
Also, do we have a consensus on spec/rotations?
As always the xls version is unsupported.
Last edited by tzenes : 09/23/08 at 3:44 PM.
Reason: xls version
While these changes are needed, I agree with one of the responses:
All of these are defensive abilities, and a big concern that we have is that while it seems like we live forever, we don't really have any burst to pressure with. If you make it harder for us to stay alive, and nerf ghoul damage, I forsee us having problems actually killing someone.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
We're starting to get a lot of PvP data in, and several classes are having trouble beating rogues, Frost mages, Ret paladins and death knights.
Death knights have a lot of options at the moment, which is cool, but makes it really hard for another player to catch a break and burn a death knight down. So we're going to try some changes. I won't sugar-coat it -- these are nerfs.
-- The ghoul is doing too much damage. He is receiving 100% of death knight strength, which is much higher than most pets.
-- Chains of Ice is going back to be being dispellable. It is probably the best snare in the game at the moment, for a class that already has Death Grip.
-- The same is true of both Strangulate and Mind Freeze. Strangulate's cooldown is going to go up. Mind Freeze remains the quick interrupt.
-- We're increasing the cooldown on Anti-Magic Shell. We don't think this will hurt DKs in PvE much, and it still leaves you with Icebound Fortitude to use often.
As always, if we overdid it, if DKs are now too weak in PvP, we'll adjust. But we were at the point where we weren't getting a lot of good numbers because some fights were just over too quickly.
Ghoul Nerf: I think everyone saw that coming. No real problems there, as long as they realize that the only reason that DK's need a damage buff to compensate.
Chains of Ice: Ok change but then it should probably cost 10-20 RP instead of a F rune. It was only justifiably worth a precious F rune when it couldn't be dispelled - now that its power has gone down a lot, so should its cost.
Strangulate/Mind Freeze: Strangulate CD going up is ok I guess. Probably a little too good.
AMS: Probably needed as well, although the wording concerns me. "Icebound Fortitude to use often" means that it will have a shorter CD than AMS? Confusing. I guess this makes the 5 extra seconds of AMS for 15 second longer CD glyph potentially better. With a base duration of 5 seconds and a 15 second CD, the gylph was kinda meh but the longer the new CD of AMS the better the glyph is (since you are doubling the duration but only adding a flat 15 seconds to CD). Any longer than 30-40 seconds and it becomes a once_a_fight spell anyway so might as well glyph it for 5 extra seconds.
I have no idea what that last sentence means. DK fights tend to be a drawn out affair with our lowish damage going up against your damage (made likewise lowish by all our abilities).
Tundra Stalker Icy Touches
354 to 359, no talents
360 to 367 1/5
367 to 374 2/5
373 to 381 3/5
382 to 388 4/5
388 to 395 5/5 Conclusion: Tundra Stalker works for Icy Touch.
Howling Blast
434 - 444 base (no diseases on target)
461 - 470 1/2 (blood plague on target)
480 - 487 2/2 (blood plague on target)
Frost Strike
408 - 409 base (no diseases on target)
428 - 429 1/2 (blood plague on target)
449 - 450 2/2 (blood plague on target) Conclusion: Glacier Rot works as advertised.
Big post on MMO changes listing a lot of DK stuff...(link). Here's some highlights:
Death Coil changes
Death Coil's coefficient was increased. We more recently changed the base points, say from 390 to 440 at rank 5. You probably don't have this last change yet. If you used a Death Coil every rotation, that's a lot of extra damage. (Source)
Rune Strike / Frost Strike / Death Coil balancing
I personally don't find the comparisons to the old Kill Command very apt. Kill Command was an almost trivial cost so it always made sense to use it whenever it was up. Rune Strike on the other hand uses 15% of your total runic power, or more than 30% of a Death Coil.
We found that the real problem, IMO, was Death Coil and Frost Strike weren't hitting hard enough relative to other DK abilities, so they didn't feel like they were worth the button push, and subsequently, building up runic power didn't feel like a big deal. Both Death Coil and Frost Strike received serious buffs. (Source)
Edit - Scourge Strike doing correct damage again. Strikes consume Cinderglacier. Rime works now as intended. They tell me Desecrate works now. We'll see. Hopefully you will see these changes next build. (Source)
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I've included all of the latest work on multipliers
I've finally added 2handed spec into the damage calculations (now that we have an accurate idea of what it does)
I've changed Scourge Strike, Frost Strike and Heart Strike to use Oblit, DC and Blood (respectively) if you are not spec'd into them
I put in accurate numbers for Humans at level 80
I put in all the starting DK gear for Murmur
The Paper Doll should accurately reflect a starting human dk on murmur (the cloak enchant doesn't work right now so I've just not placed it on her, and the sigal is an approximation)
I've added spaghetti logic to deal with the socket bonuses for now, I'll probably replace it later
The Item buffs are still Level 70 gear and will be updated soon.
If anyone has been adding items I'd appreciate if they uploaded their version.
Additionally, let me know of any bugs you find, I keep hunting for them but I don't always find them.
Also, do we have a consensus on spec/rotations?
As always the xls version is unsupported.
Well one bug I found is in your rotation dropdowns the none option returns an error. Also, how come in every version you never apply Crypt Fever to diseases? Unless there is something I am missing (IE it doesnt work or something) it should be on there. Even if it doesnt work, one would assume it will at some point, and would still be included.
Also, I added Unholy Blight to mine, but the number of 1% AP per tick bothers me, I read it was tested somewhere but have no solid info. Also what about Howling Blast? Its damn near impossible to use in a rotation (and pointless) but when rime works, it will basically fit into holes in rotations whenever Rime procs from what seems best to me. It should be included too, but noone ever seems to want to get the coeffficient for that either...
And Zurm, those are changes to the internal build. They havent gone live yet.
Last edited by klineshrike : 09/24/08 at 10:08 AM.
I'm aware, I just wanted to put the post up so people could see what was coming. Also, I'm going to try to port the spreadsheet to Excel 2007 format semi-manually, hopefully removing the errors. Not sure I'll have time before this weekend, but for those who don't like open office that option should be available in the next week or so.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
[Howling Blast] should be included too, but noone ever seems to want to get the coeffficient for that either...
Be my guest. I have class today.
Also, you're right that those changes aren't live yet. But they will be, and so will a number of other things that aren't blue-posted or automatically listed at mmo-champion. I don't particularly feel like doing extensive tests on stuff that's likely to change very soon. We've been hearing a lot of various details all possibly making it in the next push, so I'm excited to see what damage is going to look like at that point. I'm content to wait for a better picture of our overall dps (and something that's closer to the total numbers we're actually going to see in live), and then work from there.
Ugh. I just hit 80 on my DK: Army of the Dead is horrible. The ghouls only seem to live for about 30 seconds and most of them don't do anything. They also die really fast if anything attacks them.
Chains of Ice change will make kiting a real issue with DK's. While the spell itself is very powerful and needed to be adjusted, but now the cost of using it is very high if it can be dispelled so easily. It would be nice if the cost could be changed to runic power as Sardaukar suggested as a counter balance. In its current form, it would be as if a warrior could only use hamstring twice every 10 seconds, hamstring could be dispelled, and when you use hamstring you couldn't use overpower.
Hopefully Virulence could be added to the 30% dispell that the other diseases share or perhaps they will add a talent or glyph that would make CoI undispellable. I think a major glyph that affects CoI would be acceptable.
Looks like Frost Strike was buffed to 60% weapon damage + 150 (up from 30% + 99) and Death Coil is up to 443 shadow damage (from 148). Seem like decent buffs to me.
Well one bug I found is in your rotation dropdowns the none option returns an error. Also, how come in every version you never apply Crypt Fever to diseases? Unless there is something I am missing (IE it doesnt work or something) it should be on there. Even if it doesnt work, one would assume it will at some point, and would still be included.
Also, I added Unholy Blight to mine, but the number of 1% AP per tick bothers me, I read it was tested somewhere but have no solid info. Also what about Howling Blast? Its damn near impossible to use in a rotation (and pointless) but when rime works, it will basically fit into holes in rotations whenever Rime procs from what seems best to me. It should be included too, but noone ever seems to want to get the coeffficient for that either...
And Zurm, those are changes to the internal build. They havent gone live yet.
The major reason I did not include Unholy Blight is because I didn't know the apc, and when I started it was still on a 30 second cooldown.
Howling Blast (and Rune Strike) require a different model to include in the dps, but I'll try to add the Howling Blast damage (at the least).
I left off the Frost build/rotation because it is the one I am least familiar with, but I'll try and get it together into the next build.
I've already fixed the none and Crypt Fever bugs, and they should be applied to the next version (which I should have up later today).
While xls versions are currently unsupported I do make one for every build, if someone could let me know where the errors are I can probably make changes to the master build to get rid of them.
Also: open office is free, if you want to work with the master build.
Blood Strike damage has been increased. (eg. 191 additional damage + 95.5 damage per disease for Rank 6, up from 66 additional damage + 33 damage per disease)
Heart Strike damage has been increased. (eg. 184 additional damage + 92 damage per disease for Rank 6, up from 101 additional damage + 54 damage per disease)
Strangulate cooldown has been increased from 30 seconds to 2 minutes.
Frost
Obliterate damage has been increased. (eg. 292 additional damage + 146 damage per disease for Rank 4 , up from 217 additional damage + 108 damage per disease)
Icy Touch damage has been increased. (Up from 90 to 227 damage for Rank 5, 74 to 187 damage for Rank 4, etc ...)
Frost Strike damage has been increased. (60% weapon damage instead of 30%, additional damage increased by 50%)
Unholy
Death Coil damage has been increased. (443 damage/664 heal instead of 148 damage/222 heal for rank 5, etc ..)
Plague Strike damage has been increased. (113 additional damage instead of 30 for Rank 6, etc ...)
Scourge Strike damage has been increased. (eg. additional damage + damage per disease for Rank , up from additional damage + damage per disease)
Anti-Magic Shell cooldown increased from 15 seconds to 1 minute.
Talents
Blood
Will of the Necropolis now reduces the cooldown of Anti-Magic Shell by 4/8/12 seconds. (Up from 1/2/3 seconds)
Frost
Blood of the North changed from 3 to 5 points. Increases Blood Strike damage by 3/6/9/12/15%. In addition, whenever you hit with Blood Strike or Pestilence there is a 20/40/60/80/100% chance that the Blood Rune will become a Death Rune when it activates.
Endless Winter has been moved from Tier 7 to Tier 6.
Chillbains moved from Tier 6 to Tier 7.
Improved Icy Talons now increases your melee attack speed by 5%. (Up from 2%)
Rime now also affects Obliterate.
Unholy
Anti-Magic Zone now absorbs [ 200% of AP + 10 000 ] spell damage. (Up from a flat 10 000)
It appears we are gaining damage, but losing utility. AMS was expected, so was strangulate, but I didn't think it would be 2 minutes. But I guess it's fair since I can't think another class has an interrupt, silence, magical near immunity and a 50% damage reduction.
After some playing around, here's some numbers. At level 73 in quest greens, my Scourge Strike is now hitting for about 1.9k (up from 700 or so). Death coil is hitting for pretty much 1k (up from 450-500). The ghoul damage has been lowered by 30% or so, no change to HP/Armor. Icy Touch hits for about 550 (up from 300). Changes to anti-magic shell are confirmed as well. Death grip minimum range removed.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
The major reason I did not include Unholy Blight is because I didn't know the apc, and when I started it was still on a 30 second cooldown.
Howling Blast (and Rune Strike) require a different model to include in the dps, but I'll try to add the Howling Blast damage (at the least).
I left off the Frost build/rotation because it is the one I am least familiar with, but I'll try and get it together into the next build.
I've already fixed the none and Crypt Fever bugs, and they should be applied to the next version (which I should have up later today).
While xls versions are currently unsupported I do make one for every build, if someone could let me know where the errors are I can probably make changes to the master build to get rid of them.
Also: open office is free, if you want to work with the master build.
I hadn't noticed this, but I had been uploaded an older version than my current working version for ods and so some bugs I had fixed were still there. These versions should be current:
Changes
All changes for 8982 are implemented
Disease damage should now work properly and include Crypt Fever
Howling Blast has been added do the dps calculations
None should work properly in dps rotations
I am also pleased to announce that going forword I will support changes to xls version due to someone pointing me to microsoft excel viewer
Leaflock, if you are offering for me to test Howling blast, I dont have an invite to beta. So I am unable to test it, or I would have my own coefficients for stuff each push.
Someone posted a link to a beta guy who had up to date coefficients for all but HB, he had Unholy Blight at 1% per tick. Sounds about right, puts it way below the other diseases anyway. Also, is the base tick damage of diseases at 80 really 127? the way they scale i would think it would be lower. Disease dps is insane and can usually come close to matching an entire rotations dps.
From a rough estimate it sounds like none of the spell coefficients were changed. IT gained about 130 ish damage, so after mods 200+ added sounds right. Same with DC gaining like 300 and oging up about 500. This would be good so new coefficients dont need to be found. Makes sense too, because the main problem was stuff being WAY too low base makes training new ranks nearly pointless.
These changes to damage should easilly put DKs back on track dps wise. Although the Heart Strike damage seems off, makes absolutely no sense to be lower. Also, I wonder when blizz will realize Oblit is going to be much better than Scourge after they add glyphs... even including armor.
Nice DPS boost we got, but Blood is still behind it feels, unless it's just due to the PvP gear given to premades and the lack of PvE stats on them. And the damage on Blood strike being over Heart strike is weird.
Is Runic Focus new or has it been in for a while? The WoW Beta DK forums are talking about it like it was just implemented. I've not seen anything on it before now, but I'm also not the most observant person in the world.
09/23/08, 1:57 PM
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