Here is a scoop on mitigation differences between the four tanking classes that a poster at Maintankadin worked up, and it seeks to address some of the questions I posed earlier, though health pool differences aren't specified for DK and Bear yet.
Take a look and contribute anything you see that is wrong with the math so we can see where the four tanking classes are likely to end up.
What is your DPS cycle with the Unholy/Frost spec (assuming Reaping)?
Do you have any basic theories or general statements regarding the play style of the final version of the DK? I am fairly certain that there will be changes before WotLK goes live, but are there any generalities that you can point to that would be good to know for those of us who want to hit the ground running?
For example, I understand that the value of IT is quite high at the moment due to the fact that it is a single-rune ability.
A note about the Unholy/Frost build before I detail the cycle: I always stock 100RP just before Gargoyle becomes available, and after casting it, use no other RP abilities until the 1 minute duration is over. When Gargoyle is on c/d, RP is spent on renewing Unholy Blight every 20s, and any excess plugged into keeping Horn of Winter up or throwing the occasional Death Coil. That having been said, the rotation generally looks like:
PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> SS -> (wait) -> SS -> SS -> SS -> (wait)
That holds for both Unholy and Blood Presence, though in Blood Presence you find yourself having to plan RP abilities in advance to avoid such things as having both Horn and UB go down at the same time, since using more than a single RP ability during the (wait) periods is probably going to mess up the timing of your Rune abilities, since your GCD is longer. In Unholy Presence, you have a lot more wiggle room, of course.
To your second question there, it's hard to throw out general statements about DK playstyle that are going to hold true for everyone across all specs and playstyles.
But one thing I can say for playing DK as a class in general is that you spend a lot of time dealing with details. Even once you've been playing with a given rotation for a while, you're still going to be spending a lot of time and attention managing buff/debuff durations, cooldowns, and global cooldown. DK is all about planning every move 10-20 seconds ahead, and you're going to have to think on your feet to adjust your rotation if an important ability misses or is dodged.
DK is a much more interactive DPS class than most, and the disparity between good DK's and not-as-good DK's is likely going to be much more severe. Given that most raid encounters require good situational awareness, reactivity, and attention to timers/health percentages/add spawns etc., a good DK's going to have to be a multi-tasker with liquid attention, capable of paying close attention to both the details of maintaining an optimal DPS rotation and the details of the environment and dynamics of a given encounter, moreso than most DPS classes.
Or: this isn't your daddy's "frostbolt-spamming watch So You Think You Can Dance reruns while raiding" DPS class. Not if you want to be much good, at any rate.
About IT, it's got a lot of value for deep Frost now that Tundra Stalker boosts its damage by 100%, but hasn't changed a whole lot for Blood and Unholy.
I notice a lot of people talking about their unholy rotations aren't mentioning unholy blight in their rotations. In my experience, the DPS gain is definitely worth the extra gcd and possibly postponing other abilities.
My cycle has been something like
PS -> IT -> UB -> BS -> BS -> SS (wait) -> SSx3, with a DC going in the (wait) while appropriate. Also, runic strike doesn't seem to proc most boss fights (as expected) so you only need your RP for UB and DC.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I notice a lot of people talking about their unholy rotations aren't mentioning unholy blight in their rotations. In my experience, the DPS gain is definitely worth the extra gcd and possibly postponing other abilities.
My cycle has been something like
PS -> IT -> UB -> BS -> BS -> SS (wait) -> SSx3, with a DC going in the (wait) while appropriate. Also, runic strike doesn't seem to proc most boss fights (as expected) so you only need your RP for UB and DC.
I'm still seeing a larger return from Gargoyling every c/d than forgoing it for strict UB/DC. When not gargoyling though, yeah, UB is definitely worth keeping up, and DC is worth hitting when GCD and RP allows.
Also, from a DPS point of view, we're hardly ever going to see Rune Strike proc. It's based on being hit now (though the tooltip has yet to be updated to reflect the change) and is only going to be used seriously if you're tanking.
A note about the Unholy/Frost build before I detail the cycle: I always stock 100RP just before Gargoyle becomes available, and after casting it, use no other RP abilities until the 1 minute duration is over. ...
PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> SS -> (wait) -> SS -> SS -> SS -> (wait)
That's 133 Runic Power in 20 seconds (assuming you have Butchery). Gargoyle used 160.
How often do you find that Gargoyle runs out early simply because you missed an attack or had to move?
Unless Gargoyle's damage was greatly buffed, you're losing DPS and utility by using it. Last build it did ~400 DPS and you couldn't afford to use ANY RP if you wanted to even have a chance to keep it up for the whole duration, which meant it entirely replaces the damage of UB, Rune Strike, and DC, the bonus damage and healing from UB's 4th disease, and the ability to use AMS, IBF (un-Glyphed), Mind Freeze, Horn of Winter, etc.
Also, the Gargoyle scales very poorly. Only Ebon Plague among our talents and abilities affects its damage, and its crit rate is either zero or so close to zero that it doesn't matter.
Gargoyle is a waste of a talent point right now.
EDIT: The average RP per second you can generate as a typical full Unholy build with Butchery but without glyphs or set bonuses is 6.65 per second (IT-PS-BS-BS-SS SS-SS-SS), and the maximum is 7.4 (IT-IT-PS-PS-BS-BS - which is an absolutely lousy rotation for DPS). No matter what you do, you CANNOT afford to use any RP abilities if you want to keep the Gargoyle up, and after about 10 seconds you won't have that choice anyway, because you'll be scrambling to maintain the insane RP flow needed to keep the gargoyle up.
as someone else mentioned it earlier, theres a problem with the "PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> SS -> (wait) -> SS -> SS -> SS -> (wait)" rotation
you can only start the second part of the rotation at 11.5 seconds, so the whole rotation takes 21.5 seconds. if you use the following rotation it could be better in the long run:
BS -> BS -> SS -> SS -> (wait) -> PS -> IT -> SS -> SS -> (wait)
you can see that it's the same amount of attacks, but you use the blood/death runes for the 1 rune specials and SS always takes the FFUU runes, so it's only 20 secs . of course the very first part of the rotation suffers as theres no diseases on the target, but you can't start with PS -> IT even if you have death runes up, because it won't use those, but the FU which you want to keep for the SSs. maybe you could try
SS -> SS -> PS -> IT -> (wait) -> SS -> SS -> BS -> BS -> (wait)
I'm pretty sure Unholy is the superior levelling build just because of On a Pale Horse alone. Runspeed increase is amazing.
Indeed, especially since the Carrot on Stick will be removed, so moving 20% faster than non-Paladins is amazing. Very important to have for PvP servers as well.
Right now Unholy is the best soloing, raiding (ignoring IT spam with an Unholy DK), and PvP spec (although different points are used in each build). PvP you want Blood/Unholy (talented Rune Tap is amazing), soloing and Raiding you want tri-spec (at least getting Butchery and imp Icy Touch in both).
I haven't been impressed by Unholy Blight, anyone have something good to say about it?
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
That's 133 Runic Power in 20 seconds (assuming you have Butchery). Gargoyle used 160.
How often do you find that Gargoyle runs out early simply because you missed an attack or had to move?
I don't have Butchery in the same spec as Gargoyle, especially since the Reaping change.
And yeah, Gargoyle is pretty situational, but in a Patchwerk-esque "sit there and hit the monstar" situation (or a "sit there and hit the target dummy to test DPS output capability situation, as the case may be) it's good stuff.
Originally Posted by Zurai
Unless Gargoyle's damage was greatly buffed, you're losing DPS and utility by using it. Last build it did ~400 DPS and you couldn't afford to use ANY RP if you wanted to even have a chance to keep it up for the whole duration, which meant it entirely replaces the damage of UB, Rune Strike, and DC, the bonus damage and healing from UB's 4th disease, and the ability to use AMS, IBF (un-Glyphed), Mind Freeze, Horn of Winter, etc.
I'd be interested to see what spec/gear you're running these tests with. Mine indicate a ~200DPS increase if Gargoyle is used exclusively for the full minute each time it's available, versus keeping 100% uptime on UB/Horn and shooting off 1.5 DC's per 20s rotation 100% of the time vs. 66%. (2.7k vs. 2.5k)
Also, remember that Rune Strike isn't really an option anymore, since it procs from being hit.
But of course, like I said above, it's very much a situational choice. If you're DPSing Patchwerk, use Gargoyle every time. If you're DPSing Archimonde, don't. It all depends on how well you can rely on 1m of DPS uptime to keep your RP flowing to keep the Gargoyle up.
The purpose of the initial tests was to gauge DPS output potential in a static DPS environment, and to see how using different specs in different presences changed those numbers, from build to build. So for the purposes of those numbers, I was assuming environmental stasis, in which case Gargoyle seems to win out, at the pvp premade gear level.
as someone else mentioned it earlier, theres a problem with the "PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> SS -> (wait) -> SS -> SS -> SS -> (wait)" rotation
you can only start the second part of the rotation at 11.5 seconds, so the whole rotation takes 21.5 seconds. if you use the following rotation it could be better in the long run:
BS -> BS -> SS -> SS -> (wait) -> PS -> IT -> SS -> SS -> (wait)
you can see that it's the same amount of attacks, but you use the blood/death runes for the 1 rune specials and SS always takes the FFUU runes, so it's only 20 secs . of course the very first part of the rotation suffers as theres no diseases on the target, but you can't start with PS -> IT even if you have death runes up, because it won't use those, but the FU which you want to keep for the SSs. maybe you could try
SS -> SS -> PS -> IT -> (wait) -> SS -> SS -> BS -> BS -> (wait)
if you have death runes up
Tested this in both UP and BP. In UP it didn't make a noticeable difference one way or the other, but in BP your rotation outperformed mine by ~200DPS. Thanks, I'll be switching to this without a doubt!
Who knew math could be both nutritious and delicious?
I haven't been impressed by Unholy Blight, anyone have something good to say about it?
When I dps with it, it shows up on Recount as my second highest damage ability, behind Scourge Strike. It also boosts Scourge Strike's damage, of course. And when tanking, it makes multi-mob tanking a breeze-- it counts as a disease, so you can Blood Boil in a pinch without using Pestilence. It's easily the best overall 51-point talent currently.
As for rotations, here's what I've been coming up with. I use the 4 SS + waiting rotation mentioned earlier, and my spec is almost identical to what Zurm posted (opting for Wandering Plague and Reaping). After an initial rotation to get some runic power and get the DK wrecking ball going, I've been doing some variation on PS - IT - BS - BS - Refresh UB - SS - SS - SS - SS and repeat. When I go to refresh UB, it's ticking down its last tick-- in other words, it's running exactly 20 seconds. DCs and other GCDs can fill in the gaps, as long as you keep an eye on your power in order to have 60 to refresh UB.
I haven't been impressed by Unholy Blight, anyone have something good to say about it?
Just did a couple 5 minute runs to see about this. In Blood Presence, using the BS - BS - SS - SS - PS - IT - SS - SS rotation, I did one run maintaining 100% UB uptime and using DC to burn off RP, and another spending all RP on DC.
UB/DC: 2.8k
DC only: 2.4k
A 16% DPS increase from one talent point is pretty radtastic, and I can't think of any reason it shouldn't scale reasonably well with gear. Not that it'll stay 16% or be 16% every execution, but it's high enough to spec/use nonetheless!
DK is a much more interactive DPS class than most, and the disparity between good DK's and not-as-good DK's is likely going to be much more severe. Given that most raid encounters require good situational awareness, reactivity, and attention to timers/health percentages/add spawns etc., a good DK's going to have to be a multi-tasker with liquid attention, capable of paying close attention to both the details of maintaining an optimal DPS rotation and the details of the environment and dynamics of a given encounter, moreso than most DPS classes.
Thanks for answering the UB question.
DKs certainly have this issue, however with Unholy and the SS glyph it isn't as much of an issue forgetting to re-disease. I attempted to test what would happen if you were slow to reapply diseases and you lose a noticable about of dps if you are playing poorly.
I hope this stays in, for example Holy Pallies can just spam Flash to do well, but a dps DK spamming SS/BS will do very poorly. I like seeing the difference between the two types of players.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I haven't been impressed by Unholy Blight, anyone have something good to say about it?
My experience has been ENTIRELY different than yours (I'm talking strictly about 5 man/raiding, however). I find it as required as IT or PS... it adds around 400 damage on my non-crit scourge strikes, while doing 170 per tick for 20 seconds (ticking every second, so 170 dps just from putting it on, plus another 80 dps if you assume 4 plague strikes in 20 seconds that don't crit). I can't think of many GCD uses that are better than that. In addition, for those aoe pulls with mobs that die fast, its great for padding meters by poping it before you run in (assuming you have the RP) and unleashing 2 blood boils right away. Keep in mind, this is all in very mediocre gear (leveling blues and 3 greens, with a 145.6 dps weapon and fairly low AP).
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
For a bit of clarification on the Unholy rotations, in the past I have seen the default rotation as IT->PS->BB->BB->SS->SS->(wait)->BB->BB->SSx4. Lately I have been seeing people replacing BB with BS, specifically in the last build. Is it just that fundamentally BB and BS serve the same purpose (creating Death Runes), but are used based on the scenario, multiple and single mob situations respectively?
First, never start your rotation with IT. You lose a lot of damage doing that. Always start with either UB (my preference, since it lasts a few seconds longer than FF or BP) or PS, so that ebon plague is already applied and you get that free 13% damage. But yea, most of the reason is that BS now generates runes just like BB while hitting a single target considerably harder and having a lower GCD (1 sec instead of 1.5). I would of course use BB on multiple targets instead of BS assumign threat wasn't an issue (which doesn't seem to be even remotely the case on beta).
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Tested this in both UP and BP. In UP it didn't make a noticeable difference one way or the other, but in BP your rotation outperformed mine by ~200DPS. Thanks, I'll be switching to this without a doubt!
Who knew math could be both nutritious and delicious?
Though it is a marked improvement over the standard 21.5sec rotation I believe that concidering the 12 sec Desecration effect it is actually even higher dps to simply ignore your use of SS glyph and Epidemic(though you shouldn't skip the talent) and use a:
Edit: The runic power generated here requires the IT Glyph
This rotation moves around a bit due to being an abnormal length. Sometimes you will have the runes to do SS but also your double BS "should" be starting, sometimes you will miss a tick on UB or overlap a tick of UB. The power of this rotation is the 100% uptime of Desecration as well as 100% disease uptime (Which is a big deal for unholy as we all know). To top it off it also has much more forgiveness on misses as you will never have to worry about your disease falling off.
It's a lot harder to keep track of the strange timing and could also be less fun due to the lack of random SS glyph procs helping out. If they changed Desecration to activating when Blood Plague is applied then the 20 second rotation would be better with the SS glyph most likely.
In my maths it does do consistantly higher dps than any of the rotations that neglect desecration's uptime. Again i'd love to see someone test this out.
Methods, tried out your rotation. Actually, your rotation and then a variation on your rotation, which includes Gargoyle, which I'm biased towards.
Casteel's BS-BS-SS-SS-PS-IT-SS-SS rotation in Blood Presence without using Gargoyle netted 2.8k DPS.
Your rotation in BP without Gargoyle netted 3k DPS.
Interestingly, your rotation in BP with Gargoyle taking the place of all UB/DC for its duration, netted the same 3k DPS. I even retested this one because I wanted it to be higher than UB/DC alone, but I got the same results the second time. Looks like for this rotation, Gargoyle and non-gargoyle is on par, in which case there's no reason to spec/use it.
How much of a DPS increase is Rune of the Fallen Crusader over Rune of Razorice?
I'm interested in numeric values/estimates because Frostfire is shaping up to be extremely competitive, so Razorice would essentially grant mages a flat 5% damage increase then.
It does appear that the Gargoyle got significantly buffed this patch. According to the Death Knight Spell Scaling post in the beta forums, the Gargoyle gets 60% of your attack power to damage per strike. With a theorized 5k high-end raid-buffed attack power, that's 1500 DPS for its duration just from AP (1695 after Ebon Plague). I wouldn't expect it to stay as powerful as it is now, because it scales something like twice as well with AP as the next best scaling ability in the game.
One: Why are people taking Corpse Explosion? When is it useful? Is it useful? Is it just a filler point?
A lot of the builds being discussed in the past 5 pages concern unholy DPS it seems, what, if any, is the role of Unholy in tanking. Certainly they make a great AoE tank (and are ridiculously fun to play while doing so), and I've taken (likely inferior) stabs at tanking builds, but is Unholy built to Main Tank? And how do specs for that look like, as compared to say an AoE tanking build.
Finally, as for Night of the Dead, which I find effectively reduces the CD of Army of the Dead by 10 minutes, do people find speccing those 2 points are worth it? It's a nice cooldown ability, but it isn't useful in situations of AoE damage, for example.
I have a question regarding whether to talent BCB or Necrosis. With the latest build, I've dropped Necrosis in favor of BCB with the recent changes to it, but I'm left wondering if that was a mistake to do.
I'm looking now at going back to Necrosis due to it's bonus from Black Ice and EP. What are people's thoughts on talenting Necrosis v. BCB?
No reaping in an unholy build? I guess it *could* work, but I would hardly value BCB over reaping, an extra SS easily beats it IMO, and fits unholy cycles better.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
10/02/08, 12:58 PM
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