WotLK Discussion - Talents and abilities. - Page 93

• frmorrison · 10/02/08, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by mrlenxa

I'm looking now at going back to Necrosis due to it's bonus from Black Ice and EP. What are people's thoughts on talenting Necrosis v. BCB?

You can get both in a PvE build. If you are referring to a frost/unholy PvP build, BCB is about 3.5% damage, while necrosis is about 3.5% damage (10% of autoattack). Adding another 10% to 3.5 is 3.85.

Also it is 5 points vs 3 points.

methods · 10/02/08, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Quetzal

Methods, tried out your rotation. Actually, your rotation and then a variation on your rotation, which includes Gargoyle, which I'm biased towards.

Casteel's BS-BS-SS-SS-PS-IT-SS-SS rotation in Blood Presence without using Gargoyle netted 2.8k DPS.

Your rotation in BP without Gargoyle netted 3k DPS.

Interestingly, your rotation in BP with Gargoyle taking the place of all UB/DC for its duration, netted the same 3k DPS. I even retested this one because I wanted it to be higher than UB/DC alone, but I got the same results the second time. Looks like for this rotation, Gargoyle and non-gargoyle is on par, in which case there's no reason to spec/use it.

Good to see my math is working. Thanks!

I haven't actually seen any scenario where Gargoyle was worth spec'ing for. At least it's on par now and could end up being the "lazy" spell rotation's best friend. I wonder with the new 60% apc it will eventually beat UB and DC. I'll have to get to work on that.

Rakki · 10/03/08, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Zurm

I ran naxx-10 last night again, and I feel I've perfected my unholy raiding spec. It doesn't have icy talons, but I don't need it because I will *always* have an enhancement shaman in raids.

I find it surprising that Icy Talon (not Improved Icy Talon) doesn't stack with WF totem. I have always had the impression that it's DK's version of flurry/slice and dice. At 20% for 5 talent points, it doesn't look overpowered at all.

On a different note, has anyone tested again how Dual Wielding works with BCB? Specifically, I am curious if offhand swing will proc main hand BCB. Would anyone care to enlighten me?

• frmorrison · 10/03/08, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by Rakki

I find it surprising that Icy Talon (not Improved Icy Talon) doesn't stack with WF totem.

40% melee haste sounds too powerful, especially with BCB. Anyway, it doesn't stack currently, either Icy Talons or Imp Icy Talons with WF totem.

Rakki · 10/03/08, 1:02 AM

If 40% melee haste sounds too powerful, what about 45% (warrior and shaman) and 50% (rogue)?

Doesn't Desecration, in its current form, make SS glyph and Epidemic obsolete? 5% extra damage is a very significant dps boost, as Methods and Quetzal have verified. That means, Unholy DK should maintain 100% Desecration uptime. And that implies using PS (and IT) every 10.5s. One way to rectify this is to make SS trigger Desecration as well.

Clandestine · 10/03/08, 1:09 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

40% melee haste sounds too powerful, especially with BCB. Anyway, it doesn't stack currently, either Icy Talons or Imp Icy Talons with WF totem.

Every other melee class has a haste mechanic which stacks with Imp Icy Touch or Windfury. It's pretty stupid that Icy Touch and Imp Icy Touch don't stack (at least not in this build, it has changed several times that I've noticed), and judging by them upping the haste on Imp Icy Touch to 5%, it seems like they're not intending to make them stack. It makes Imp Icy Touch basically a 6 point talent for 5% haste if you have an enhancement shaman. Unfortunately there's not really anywhere else to spend the talent points in a strictly DPS Frost Build, there's not a lot of choice in terms of DPS talents.

jimmyolsen · 10/03/08, 1:37 AM

Originally Posted by Rakki

If 40% melee haste sounds too powerful, what about 45% (warrior and shaman) and 50% (rogue)?

Doesn't Desecration, in its current form, make SS glyph and Epidemic obsolete? 5% extra damage is a very significant dps boost, as Methods and Quetzal have verified. That means, Unholy DK should maintain 100% Desecration uptime. And that implies using PS (and IT) every 10.5s. One way to rectify this is to make SS trigger Desecration as well.

Yes, I'd have to agree that Epidemic is completely useless for single target dps, and really even for AoE as Pestilence covers spreading it. However there is a complete lack of decent talents in the early tree for Unholy. Even if you assume it is there for miss protection, applying PS at 10.5 seconds allows an extra GCD just in case the DK is under the 9% Yellow Hit Cap. However, where else are you going to put 2 points in Tier 2 of the Unholy tree? 2/3 Virulence?

I would argue the only good glyphs left for Unholy are Plague Strike (+20% damage to diseased targets) and Ghoul (20% more Strength scaling). Rune Strike glyph was a decent third option previously, but now that Rune Strike is nearly impossible to use from behind the target (maybe 360 cleaves will return?) it too is obsolete.

Thus for the third major glyph Unholy PVE dps DKs are left with the lovely +1 charge to Bone Shield, additional healing from Death Strike, or less Icy Touch damage for more RP.

Would a PVE boss who is immune to Snares standing in a desecrate still activate the Blood Strike glyph? If so, that's the best 3rd option.

Clandestine · 10/03/08, 2:17 AM

Death Knight glyphs are overall pretty disappointing, not really sure what other classes get. There's usually only one or maybe two major glyphs which have any significant effect on any specific role or spec, so you're left with choosing "well, I might want to hit IBF occasionally as DPS, I guess I'll get that." No real choices, not really exciting to get them either. I'm hoping there's a good chunk of profession changes coming soon though.

mrlenxa · 10/03/08, 2:56 AM

Originally Posted by jimmyolsen

Would a PVE boss who is immune to Snares standing in a desecrate still activate the Blood Strike glyph? If so, that's the best 3rd option.

I would be interested to know this as well. With BS having been added to Reaping, I'm now using it to my unholy rotation.

Randyll · 10/03/08, 5:59 AM

Originally Posted by Clandestine

Death Knight glyphs are overall pretty disappointing, not really sure what other classes get. There's usually only one or maybe two major glyphs which have any significant effect on any specific role or spec, so you're left with choosing "well, I might want to hit IBF occasionally as DPS, I guess I'll get that." No real choices, not really exciting to get them either. I'm hoping there's a good chunk of profession changes coming soon though.

Most of the DK glyphs are really meh. Even the majority of Major ones of which, in my opinion, all should feel "I want this" so that'd the player would feel like he's going to want to drop the others for the ones he wants for his spec, because they benefit him the most and are good.

What strikes me as odd in the whole Glyph concept that 90% of the glyphs are Major ones and there's only a handful of Minor ones. Granted, everyones going to want Minor glyphs but isn't that kind of dumb thinking that you have three major and minor slots, so that you'd have an equal amount of choices for both. Oh well.

Moreover, some of the Major glyphs ought to be Minor and the glyph for Horn of Winter shouldn't exist -- the cost of that spell should just be buffed to 10 RP instead of 20.

Caggy · 10/03/08, 6:39 AM

DK Glyphs defiantly still sound in development, since their skills took so long to finalize.
I'd think the horn of winter glyph should kick the buff to 5 mins.

Skulli · 10/03/08, 9:22 AM

Well same with sigils. The ones that exist are okay at best. But biggest problem for me is that you get your first new sigil at level 80 pvp.
Wowhead is listing some other sigils as well but those are higher pvp ones. Not sure if they implemented drops for raid zones yet or normal 5m instances.

Zaroua · 10/03/08, 9:39 AM

UB in UP: 57-58
UB in UP + Impurity: 62
UB in BP + Ebon Plague + Desecration + Rage of Rivendare + Black Ice: 159
UB in BP + Ebon Plague + Desecration + Rage of Rivendare + Black Ice + Impurity: 170

All done with 2050 AP unbuffed. I'd rate Impurity as being a waste of 5 talent points.

Ran a lengthy test on the boss level target dummy in Ebon Hold: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150003133151

A few things to note about the spec: Wandering is a must for any Unholy spec - the dmg it provides on trash is enormous and while the single target DPS portion of the skill is low (but good for 3 talent points), it makes up for any boss where there are any type of adds you can Pestilence diseases on. Black Ice + Icy Talons surpasses Dark Conviction + Bladed Armor + 2H spec for solo testing. The DPS could be higher right now due to the Frost Fever bug and losing a few ticks of the disease over a long period of time. Night of the Dead will most likely be a great skill for Unholy DKs to invest 1 point into: higher Ghoul uptime on the more AoE intensive fights is a good thing. That and you can Raise Dead on players more often, too.

Gargoyle on cooldown, trinkets on cooldown (670AP for 20 seconds/2min cooldown and 208 haste rating for 20 seconds/2min cooldown). Unholy Blight uptime outside of Gargoyle usage was over 99%, same with Horn of Winter. Glyphs used were Icy Touch and of the Ghoul. I used the PvP sigil, 94AP for 6 seconds after every Plague Strike. That means that all my IT/SS/BB were done with an extra 94AP. The dummy was at 1% health the entire time, resulting in very low Necrosis damage.

Rotation: PS > IT > SS > BB > BB > UB >>> PS > IT > SS > SS > DC > DC
I'll probably do another test tomorrow with PS > IT > SS > SS >> SS > SS > BB > BB

Stats:
1189-1491 weapon dmg 417.9 sheet dps (Fallen Crusader)
3.21 speed
2050 AP
323 hit (9.85)
18.12 crit
14 expertise
9.37 spell crit

Gargoyle:
Highest Strike: 2368
Average Strike: 1.9k
5% or so miss rate
971 DPS while active (33% uptime, rounded down to coincide with rotations)

Personal DPS: 1744
Ghoul DPS: 258

If you're going to do tests and posts your results here, please include the basic run down of your stats.

Malpractices · 10/03/08, 10:55 AM

I did notice you had the 5% zone wide dps buff, so you may need to adjust your dps numbers down a little. What is the dragon icon buff that goes with it and did that affect your numbers at all?

Eishara · 10/03/08, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Malpractices

I did notice you had the 5% zone wide dps buff, so you may need to adjust your dps numbers down a little. What is the dragon icon buff that goes with it and did that affect your numbers at all?

The 5% damage buff solely increases damage done to Undead targets, Target Dummies are Mechanicals and that dragon buff is probably Wyrmrest Champion, that does nothing for his damage and only applies to reputation gains.

Zurai · 10/03/08, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Zaroua

UB in UP: 57-58
UB in UP + Impurity: 62
UB in BP + Ebon Plague + Desecration + Rage of Rivendare + Black Ice: 159
UB in BP + Ebon Plague + Desecration + Rage of Rivendare + Black Ice + Impurity: 170

All done with 2050 AP unbuffed. I'd rate Impurity as being a waste of 5 talent points.

Wow, you managed to show that Impurity was a 9% per-tick improvement to the worst-scaling spell we have! (/sarcasm)

UB scales at 1% AP per tick. +25% of that isn't going to be impressive unless you find a way to get 50,000 AP or so. Try using a spell that actually, y'know, scales. Or just actually do the math; it's a 1.1% total DPS increase per point, give or take 0.1%.

EDIT: Actually, I'll do the math for you. We'll use a fairly standard Unholy build and assume a 200 DPS 3.4 speed 2hander, 2000 AP, and 20% armor, and ignore crits for simplicity's sake. Rotation is PS-IT-SS-SS BS-BS-SS-SS, and we'll assume UB is kept up permanently with one and a half DCs per rotation. I'll show the numbers with and without Impurity.

Without Impurity:
Autoattack: 342.85 DPS
PS: 576 damage 1 time per 20 seconds = 28.80 DPS
IT: 1024 damage 1 time per 20 seconds = 51.24 DPS
SS: 2358 damage 4 times per 20 seconds = 589.74 DPS
BS: 1216 damage 2 times per 20 seconds = 121.65 DPS
UB: 149 damage 20 times per 20 seconds = 149.92 DPS
DC: 1404 damage 1.5 times per 20 seconds = 105.34 DPS
BP: 371 damage 6 times per 20 seconds = 111.33 DPS
FF: 371 damage 6 times per 20 seconds = 111.33 DPS
Total: 1612.20 DPS

With 5/5 Impurity:
Autoattack: 342.85 DPS
PS: 576 damage 1 time per 20 seconds = 28.80 DPS
IT: 1142 damage 1 time per 20 seconds = 57.12 DPS
SS: 2358 damage 4 times per 20 seconds = 589.74 DPS
BS: 1216 damage 2 times per 20 seconds = 121.65 DPS
UB: 163 damage 20 times per 20 seconds = 163.07 DPS
DC: 1546 damage 1.5 times per 20 seconds = 115.97 DPS
BP: 458 damage 6 times per 20 seconds = 137.69 DPS
FF: 458 damage 6 times per 20 seconds = 137.69 DPS
Total: 1694.58 DPS

1694.58/1612.20 = 105.1% damage.

jimmyolsen · 10/03/08, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Zaroua

UB in UP: 57-58
UB in UP + Impurity: 62
UB in BP + Ebon Plague + Desecration + Rage of Rivendare + Black Ice: 159
UB in BP + Ebon Plague + Desecration + Rage of Rivendare + Black Ice + Impurity: 170

All done with 2050 AP unbuffed. I'd rate Impurity as being a waste of 5 talent points.

Ran a lengthy test on the boss level target dummy in Ebon Hold: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150003133151

Gargoyle on cooldown, trinkets on cooldown (670AP for 20 seconds/2min cooldown and 208 haste rating for 20 seconds/2min cooldown). Unholy Blight uptime outside of Gargoyle usage was over 99%, same with Horn of Winter. Glyphs used were Icy Touch and of the Ghoul. I used the PvP sigil, 94AP for 6 seconds after every Plague Strike. That means that all my IT/SS/BB were done with an extra 94AP. The dummy was at 1% health the entire time, resulting in very low Necrosis damage.

Rotation: PS > IT > SS > BB > BB > UB >>> PS > IT > SS > SS > DC > DC
I'll probably do another test tomorrow with PS > IT > SS > SS >> SS > SS > BB > BB

Zaroura, if you don't mind, when you run a second test would you consider a few other things.

1) Install the plague Strike glyph.

2) Switching the 2 points from Epidemic for 2/5 Impurity. We've all noted that Impurity is an incredibly weak 5 point talent; however, Epidemic is providing no dps increase for Unholy if you keep your desecration and Icy Talons buffs up 100% of the time.

3) Since it appears that personal Icy Talons does not stack with Raid wide Icy talons or Windfury, perhaps moving points to 2-hand spec would be worthwhile? Thus the final build would look as such: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...03150003133151.

Your white dps on tests will obviously go down when not having Icy Talons; however, it should allow a better picture.

Darkrenown · 10/03/08, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

First, never start your rotation with IT. You lose a lot of damage doing that. Always start with either UB (my preference, since it lasts a few seconds longer than FF or BP) or PS, so that ebon plague is already applied and you get that free 13% damage. But yea, most of the reason is that BS now generates runes just like BB while hitting a single target considerably harder and having a lower GCD (1 sec instead of 1.5). I would of course use BB on multiple targets instead of BS assumign threat wasn't an issue (which doesn't seem to be even remotely the case on beta).

BS has a lower GCD now? What?

methods · 10/03/08, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Darkrenown

BS has a lower GCD now? What?

I've heard all melee abilities use 1 second instead of 1.5sec. What constitutes a 'melee' ability is up for debate possibly (SS count as melee? I assume yes.)

Also, on Impurity:

On diseases, IT and Deathcoil (and even UB) the 25% extra AP is indispensable and I would never skip more than one point in it. It is also more and more valuable as your AP scales up. I've found its nearly worth 5% total and up. This would be even more valuable if Gargoyle is finally being effected by it.

ansga · 10/03/08, 1:05 PM

Deleted for bad concept on post.

• Lanky · 10/03/08, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by ansga

After reading through most of the data and information here, i do have one question... what are considered to be the higher end specs? Tank spec, solo spec, pve dps spec is what im mainly concerned with. I've seen quite a few listed and generally they seem to be within a few points, and i know at this point most of the stuff done with specs is still up in the air and due to change as per blizz but i'd just like to see what's currently thought of.

Currently levelling as unholy (just got onto ptr's, still level 60 >.<) and actually would like to plan on being a DK tank after LK release. Just trying to see where things stand with gear and such, i've got my own ideas on what i'll more than likely need for gear, but still would like other opinions and points of view just to make sure that i can get the right decision on it.

Any and all info is appreciated

All of the information you are requesting is literally in the last few pages of this thread, pages you ostensibly read.

Tanking: Frost, unholy avoidance + imp death grip, blade barrier.
Solo: Unholy
Raid DPS: slightly different Unholy.

Remember to capitalize please.

methods · 10/03/08, 1:23 PM

With my most recent Theorycraft i am terribly worried about DW taking the throne in high end raiding. At T7 it may not be very far ahead or behind but with the scaling of BCB and Necrosis with a DW spec I can see this spec, raid buffed, going balls deep on the dps charts in the next raid environment and maybe naxx even without maxing hit past 9%.

Raid buff assumptions: 10%ap, Heroism every 5mins, 20% haste (wf), Ret haste and damage, Strength of earth/Horn, Battleshout/Might, Elemental Spell buffs, Obviously Unholy buffs like Ebon Plague.

Edit: Even though it wouldn't solve the scaling issue I would love to see 2H spec on first Tier Blood. Blizzard has done a great job of balancing the two options fairly well but as we feared it may be the dominant spec after all for Unholy. Blood will never have to fear scaling DW vs 2H largely due to Dancing Rune Weapon and the shear power of HS/BS spam.

Darkrenown · 10/03/08, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by methods

I've heard all melee abilities use 1 second instead of 1.5sec. What constitutes a 'melee' ability is up for debate possibly (SS count as melee? I assume yes.)

Not as far as I can see. I downloaded SorrenTimers (A timer addon) to test this, everything in BP seems to have a 1.5 sec GCD and everything in UP has a 1 sec GCD. Since I've finally got an addon which shows GCD time I'm going to test the effect of haste too.

Edit: Got 6% passive haste + a trinket for 4% on use. With the trinket activated I could still find no difference in GCD in BP or UP.

methods · 10/03/08, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Darkrenown

Not as far as I can see. I downloaded SorrenTimers (A timer addon) to test this, everything in BP seems to have a 1.5 sec GCD and everything in UP has a 1 sec GCD. Since I've finally got an addon which shows GCD time I'm going to test the effect of haste too.

Not sure where i heard that but I never included it in my calculations anyway. Thanks for letting me know!

Rakki · 10/03/08, 1:49 PM

@Methods

Unless Desecration is changed to include SS as well, you'll certainly use PS (and IT) before the diseases expire. That makes the 2 points in Epidemic redundant, and they can be invested in Nerve of Cold Steel instead. I have a hunch that moving 1 point from Virulence to Nerve of Cold Steel will result in dps increase too.

Would anyone explain how BCB works with DW? I asked this in my earlier post, but it seems that it's lost in the swarm of new posts. Thanks in advance.