DPS Compendium - Page 13

• Zurm · 11/11/08, 8:19 AM

Originally Posted by c0nscript

Why does the T7 Death Knight DPS set have haste on nearly all pieces?

To answer this question, keep in mind that blizzard has also said quite often that they want death knights to be equally viable as dual wield or with a single two-hander. Haste is a VERY good stat for increasing white damage and procs, so its actually quite good with the tri-spec (at the very least, still far better than haste is for traditional 2h specs).

Leaflock · 11/11/08, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by Clemz

I'm of that mind too, it's not entirely useless, Leaflock pointed out a situation earlier in the thread that would make Epidemic worthwhile, but I wouldn't suggest points in it hoping that situation comes to light.

Yeah, it's also useful for longer diseases in AoE situations. I didn't mean to imply that it was a necessary blood dps talent, only that any dismissal as "completely useless" isn't really accurate. It can be handy. And, at higher levels of gear + raid buffs, I'd definitely take it over the spell hit talent.

Xotli · 11/11/08, 2:52 PM

/burp

• Zurm · 11/11/08, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Xotli

I dont know why you pick up Unholy Aura and invest 2/2.

I have an explanation of why quoted directly after. Don't assume that just because it doesn't offer a direct increase in damage doesn't mean it won't increase your dps on boss fights. Here is a repost of my quote, in case you can't find it:

Originally Posted by Zurm

Let's do some napkin math, shall we? In a 25-man, let's assume we have 7 melee DPS. Now lets assume we are on a fight like KT, with approximately 10% running time with no run speed enchant, and let's also assume a personal sunstained dps of all melee to be 4k. These are all fair numbers from what we have seen on beta, shifted slightly to make the math easier to follow.

Now, without any runspeed enchant, we could expect each individual member to do:

4000 * (1-.1) = 3600 dps, and combined:

3600 * 7 = 25200

Now, if we increase running speed by 15%, we increase the (1-.1) = .9 multiplier to 1-.087 = .913. Re-doing this:

4000 * .913 = 3652 dps, and combined:
3652 * 7 = 25564

Or a net raid dps increase on this fight of 364. This is also just purely the DPS benefit from a running fight. This doesn't factor in the ability to hit your WHOLE raid with a 15% boost on fights like Heigan to make it easier (while it's not needed to have this speed boost on heigen, it certainly helps, especially with the achievement where no one can die t his bursts). Also, you will most likely be near to the tanks at all times, and allowing the tanks to grab targets more easily is extremely helpful.

If you are going to skimp points from unholy aura, you are hurting the raid more than if you were to take those points from impurity or necrosis, for example.

I took those points out of desecration instead, when I made that initial post we were aware of the DPS benefits comparing the talents as Methods hadn't provided that data yet. Now if this isn't reason enough for you to get it, so be it. But please make sure you read everything in that post before making corrections, there is a lot of information to cover.

Edit: Not to mention, the raid DPS boost of unholy aura scales with *everyone's* gear.

Nacht · 11/11/08, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by Xotli

I dont know why you pick up Unholy Aura and invest 2/2.
You can relocate those points into necrosis to get 5/5 since the unholy aura talent does not improve your dps at all.

Looks like somebody hasn't paid attention to much of the Unholy DK raid dps conversation.

Eetabeetay · 11/11/08, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by Xotli

To your Unholy talent tree.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I assume this is your dps build.
I dont know why you pick up Unholy Aura and invest 2/2.
You can relocate those points into necrosis to get 5/5 since the unholy aura talent does not improve your dps at all.
I would also not spend points in dirge. Unholy isnt in my opinion a build which requires alot RP, if you compare it to frost.
I would spend those two points in desecration.

my build would be

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Actually it has been proven that unholy aura is a RDPS increase, not to mention just plain useful in heavy movement fight. And most unholy builds include dirge, you have UB to keep up and Gargoyle to dump RP into, so the RP from Dirge is definitely not wasted.

Melchior · 11/11/08, 3:49 PM

Kind of a minor point either way, but I think the 51/13/7 Blood build might get more mileage out of Vampiric Blood instead of Rune Tap. I don't think a lot of DPS setups are going to run Glyph of Blood Tap to make it a party heal, which is really the only advantage I see to taking it over VB. Maybe I'm overlooking something, though?

Eetabeetay · 11/11/08, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by Melchior

Kind of a minor point either way, but I think the 51/13/7 Blood build might get more mileage out of Vampiric Blood instead of Rune Tap. I don't think a lot of DPS setups are going to run Glyph of Blood Tap to make it a party heal, which is really the only advantage I see to taking it over VB. Maybe I'm overlooking something, though?

Well the way I see it is that unless you're tanking, you really shouldn't be needing a lot of healing. If you do take some heavy damage I'm sure Death Strike, Rune Tap, Pots, Bandages, etc will do just fine. The thing about VB is that the biggest benefit (heals from other players) relies on those other players healing you, and if its close to a wipe, they will probably be focusing on the main tank or other players. IMO there really isn't any great glyphs for you're third glyph dps wise, Glyph of Blood Tap adds some very nice utility to the raid though.

tzenes · 11/11/08, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Xotli

To your Unholy talent tree.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I assume this is your dps build.
I dont know why you pick up Unholy Aura and invest 2/2.
You can relocate those points into necrosis to get 5/5 since the unholy aura talent does not improve your dps at all.
I would also not spend points in dirge. Unholy isnt in my opinion a build which requires alot RP, if you compare it to frost.
I would spend those two points in desecration.

my build would be

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Dirge is an amazing ability when you consider its effect on Gargoyle.
With the 3 SS 20 second rotation, Unholy gets an extra 25 RP from Dirge (or 1.25rp per second).
This pushes the rp gen in the rotation from 5.25rp/s to 6.5rp/s, increasing Gargoyle life time by 54%
When you take into account that an unholy raid buffed gargoyle is pumping out 900+dps for its lifetime, a 54% increase is significant.

When we subtract the dps loss from DC during gargoyle up time (~200) and average the life time damage of the gargoyle over the cooldown (28.18 second over 3 minutes without dirge) we see that dirge is providing a 80dps total increase from gargoyle alone.

In addition, while gargoyle is not up, Dirge is providing an extra death coil every ~30 seconds (which unholy has room for) for an additional 60dps increase.

So, 60dps*(180-43.33)/180 +80dps = 125.6dps or 62dps per point.
Assuming the Unholy character in my example hits 3k dps, this constitutes a ~2% increase per point.
This pushes dirge from a useful talent to one of the best talents (on par with bone shield and wandering plague).

edit: for comparative purposes, Necrosis is about .6% increase per point.

Melchior · 11/11/08, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Eetabeetay

Well the way I see it is that unless you're tanking, you really shouldn't be needing a lot of healing. If you do take some heavy damage I'm sure Death Strike, Rune Tap, Pots, Bandages, etc will do just fine. The thing about VB is that the biggest benefit (heals from other players) relies on those other players healing you, and if its close to a wipe, they will probably be focusing on the main tank or other players. IMO there really isn't any great glyphs for you're third glyph dps wise, Glyph of Blood Tap adds some very nice utility to the raid though.

You really shouldn't need a lot of healing, I agree. However, in the situations where you take a significant chunk of damage, Rune Tap isn't really going to fix your problem. It just seems like you'd get comparable healing hitting VB -> DS or even just popping a Healthstone, and any healers that are watching over melee would be able to pick you up in a single heal in most cases. Glyph of Rune Tap does have a bit of utility there, but then if you're in a group with other melee they're also already probably being covered or don't need much healing themselves.

Illundai · 11/11/08, 5:56 PM

I've started converting the OP into the TTT format.

What I'm missing right now is a DPS per talent point breakdown for the other specs (only have numbers for Unholy right now) and the Pets section could do with some work. I've fleshed the pet section out a little bit, but nothing extraordinary so far.

Like always, feel free to PM me if you deem something useful enough to add.

Arkasi · 11/11/08, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Melchior

You really shouldn't need a lot of healing, I agree. However, in the situations where you take a significant chunk of damage, Rune Tap isn't really going to fix your problem. It just seems like you'd get comparable healing hitting VB -> DS or even just popping a Healthstone, and any healers that are watching over melee would be able to pick you up in a single heal in most cases. Glyph of Rune Tap does have a bit of utility there, but then if you're in a group with other melee they're also already probably being covered or don't need much healing themselves.

The power of rune tap though is it scales with your health. It's help then is based on hope healing scales compared to tank/dps stamina. Blood tanks take more damage than the other two tanks by virtue having less mitigation, so a VB/RT gets you 30% of your health back, meaning two of your blood runes just gotten eaten but you can still deathstrike since it's on a different set of runes. So it's really more of a pvp/tank talent. However I could see it being useful on dps race fights where having that extra healer isn't an option. So a support blood/frost dk pumping out a glyphed RT every 30 secs come alleviate a bit of the healing burden.

Clandestine · 11/11/08, 6:44 PM

Here are the numbers by which Ghouls scale:

Ghouls gain 100% of strength by default. Ravenous Dead increases this to 160%.
Ghouls gain 30% of stamina by default. Ravenous Dead increases this to 48%.

Source

edit: Not positive this is correct, it was pointed out to me that GC stated a couple days later that the Ghoul was scaling too well, so it may have been nerfed.

tzenes · 11/11/08, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Clandestine

Here are the numbers by which Ghouls scale:

Ghouls gain 100% of strength by default. Ravenous Dead increases this to 160%.
Ghouls gain 30% of stamina by default. Ravenous Dead increases this to 48%.

Source

Please tell me you have base stats for ghouls

Here are the dps numbers per talent point for the 50/0/21 spec

DPS per talent point	all	Max-1	Max-2	Max-3	Max-4	Max-5
Butchery	1.51%	0.80%	1.51%
Subversion	2.42%	0.81%	1.61%	2.42%
Bladed Armor	5.30%	1.08%	2.13%	3.18%	4.25%	5.30%
Bloody Strike	7.13%	2.48%	4.85%	7.13%
2H spec	2.14%	1.07%	2.14%
Dark Convict	2.91%	0.58%	1.16%	1.74%	2.33%	2.91%
Vof3 War	1.92%	0.65%	1.29%	1.92%
Bloody Veng	5.27%	1.76%	3.51%	5.27%
Abom	Exempt	2.75%	5.48%
Hysteria	Assume 4kdps	3.48%
Sudden Doom	3.61%	0.24%	0.54%	1.57%	2.59%	3.61%
Heart	HS->BS	3.72%
MoM	3.34%	1.11%	2.23%	3.34%
Blood Gorge	9.08%	1.82%	3.64%	5.45%	7.26%	9.08%
Vicious	0.27%	0.14%	0.27%
Morbidity	1.57%	0.52%	1.04%	1.57%
Virulence	3.38%	0.13%	0.25%	0.38%
Ravenous	No Ghoul	0.06%	0.10%	0.16%
Necrosis	2.04%	0.41%	0.82%	1.23%	1.64%	2.04%
Blood-Caked	6.09%	2.03%	4.06%	6.09%
SoD	0.10%	0.10%
Gargoyle	6.87%	6.87%

I assumed no Ghoul.
I didn't model Abom because it is based on raid dps, and there is always the possibility someone else will bring it. I did however put how it effects you personally (assuming all other raid buffs).
Hysteria assumes you're using it on someone doing 4kdps
Heart assumes you're using Blood instead
BCB feels higher than I expected, that might be an error (I don't know yet).

It is averaging 470 damage per swing (assuming 50% damage and 30% proc rate), and you are swinging every 2 seconds, so it is possible that 6% is right, but it was still surprising.

dr_AllCOM3 · 11/12/08, 2:32 AM

Originally Posted by tzenes

It is averaging 470 damage per swing (assuming 50% damage and 30% proc rate), and you are swinging every 2 seconds, so it is possible that 6% is right, but it was still surprising.

BCB is quite nice and way better than Necrosis, that is correct.