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11/07/08, 7:26 AM
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#16
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Warlock
Draenor (EU)
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I am uncertain but reports say that Swordguard Embroidery from tailoring has a 45 sec ICD, with a 25% procrate and a 15 second duration that would put it at around 90 AP vs 22 agi or 22 haste.
I am mentioning it because you left tailoring out of the professions.
I hope someone has more accurate details regarding it since it is likely a good perk for the DK class considering our limited use of haste or agi
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11/07/08, 8:30 AM
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#17
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Bald Bull
Worgen Death Knight
The Maelstrom (EU)
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Added a changelog so you guys can keep up with what changes I make.
I haven't added the attack power coefficients just yet, want to have some more confirmation they are indeed correct before I do.
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11/07/08, 9:10 AM
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#18
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The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology
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I've gotten a lot done with the Rawr module, and while I'm not yet confident in the stat breakdowns it provides, it is generating them error-free! As soon as I get the model to a comfortable point, I'd like any DKs comfortable with C# (or Java, as it's almost identical) to help me take a look over the math and make sure the model makes sense.
Once the Rawr module is completed, we will have a source for point-by-point talent comparisons, gear comparisons, automatic gemming to maximize DPS, and AP equivalence.
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Back, semi-casual, and proud of it.
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11/07/08, 10:10 AM
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#19
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Death Knight
Ursin
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A quick comparison about professions:
Alchemy: Cheap Profession that gives more or less a 33% better flasks for the alchemist. That would be 60AP from an endless rage flask. Elixirs and flasks also double in duration .
Blacksmith: 2 New (Colorless) Gem sockets to your gear. With Rare Red gems, this is 64AP from the gems. There's no BoP gear anymore.
Enchanting: 2 Ring enchants, that equals to 64AP. Since we can runeforge our own weapons, the value of enchanting is dismissed a little.
Enginerring: Crafted BoP Epic googles (iLvl 200). Not very usefull after getting T7. Here is a comparison between the two
Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft
Inscription: Cheap Profession that gives better shoulder enchants. The DPS enchant gives (surprise) more 64AP than the normal enchant.
Jewelcraft: 3 Chromatic (Death?) Gems, which compared to Rare red gems gives more 66AP. Also gives a DPS trinket:
[Figurine - Emerald Boar]
Note the gem slots on the trinket.
Leatherworking: Give a bracers enchant, which gives 76 more AP than normal enchants. Also gives drums to the raid, but they don't stack anymore.
Tailoring: An executioner enchant on your cloak. Nothing really usefull.
Herbalism: A HoT that heals 2000 damage over 5 seconds.
Mining: Flat 500HP Bonus.
Skinning: A flat 25 critical strike rating.
I would suggest getting Inscription and Alchemy, especially if you have an Herbalist or Enchanter Alt, since they are cheap professions with cheap bonuses. BS, JC and Engineering bonuses dismish after some raiding tiers. LW and Tailor doesn't have much use.
Last edited by Sh4d0wfury : 11/07/08 at 10:16 AM.
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11/07/08, 10:15 AM
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#20
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Piston Honda
Human Death Knight
Frostmane
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Originally Posted by Flamingcloud
Looking good so far. The thing I would like to see the most is the actual value of armor pen for the various specs added into the table mainly to see if it is better or worse than melee haste. Having the finalized list (for naxx gear levels) for gear prioritizing would be handy.
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I added ARP to my sheets and have come up with these rough numbers for a naxx gear DK:
1ARP to AP
| Stat | Unholy | Blood | Frost |
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| 1ARP | 0.9727 | 1.8892 | 1.2623 |
Again, remember this is just a best guess and may have some errors in the sheets still. That being said, Blood looks like it has another favorite stat. It's interesting that haste is worse than ARP for unholy even.
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11/07/08, 10:36 AM
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#21
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Glass Joe
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Add obliterate to the abbreviation section, OB.
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11/07/08, 10:56 AM
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#22
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Observation: I am awesome
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Originally Posted by Illundai
6.1.5. Agility
A Death Knight needs 62.5 Agility to gain 1% Crit.
Furthermore, Agility only increases melee crit chance. Crit Rating is always preferred over Agility just because Crit Rating is better budgeted than Agility and because Crit Rating also grants Spell crit.
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It's kind of a silly point, but Agility also increases armor, which in turn increases attack power through Bladed Armor. Each point of agility adds 2 armor which is 1/18th of an attack power. If you end up with around 500 agility while raid buffed in DPS gear at 80, then this will account for another 27 attack power. It's still not something you'd ever stack, but it's not totally meaningless.
Also, sorry for the bit of Grammar Nazi, but "effect" is a noun that's caused by the application of the verb "affect". Example:
Correct: Agility affects your armor.
Incorrect: Agility effects your armor.
Correct: One effect of agility is that it increases your armor.
Incorrect: One affect of agility is that it increases your armor.
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11/07/08, 10:59 AM
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#23
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Bald Bull
Worgen Death Knight
The Maelstrom (EU)
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I need to get around to writing the Agility section though, it was pretty late when I wrote that portion up (as you can notice).
This link was posted in the other thread, they seem pretty accurate, so unless anyone sees any mistakes on there, I'll add it.
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11/07/08, 11:04 AM
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#24
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by methods
I added ARP to my sheets and have come up with these rough numbers for a naxx gear DK:
1ARP to AP
| Stat | Unholy | Blood | Frost |
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| 1ARP | 0.9727 | 1.8892 | 1.2623 |
Again, remember this is just a best guess and may have some errors in the sheets still. That being said, Blood looks like it has another favorite stat. It's interesting that haste is worse than ARP for unholy even.
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Just to confirm, this is assuming sundered/faerie fire boss mob correct? Also I am not sure if armor pen is applied first or last, I assume last which would decrease the value if you assumed first. I am pretty surprised how high the numbers are I didn't think it would be better than expertise & crit for blood/frost.
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11/07/08, 11:11 AM
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#25
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LF sun
Blood Elf Death Knight
Anub'arak (EU)
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Originally Posted by Illundai
While Haste is never a particularly desirable stat for Death Knights, we must remember how it effects their GCD. Because of dense rotations additional haste rating can reduce the strain on a player and allow for a larger margin of error. However, stacking too much of it is also not recommended, due to its low value.
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Has that been changed? I remember haste not affecting our GCD and I think it is still how it works, the only thing that decreses it would be Unholy Presence.
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11/07/08, 11:15 AM
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#26
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Glass Joe
Goblin Warlock
Spirestone
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Thanks for the post, Illundai.
Sections 4.1 was very confusing for me, mostly because of the way it is worded. I'm pretty sure I understand the rune cooldown mechanic, but the way the section is written make me wonder if I really do.
Originally Posted by Illundai
<<snip>> Runes have a 10 second regen time. However, if you do not use your regenerated rune as soon as it comes up, it will activate a timer (up to 2 seconds, is the current theory) which will count as the Rune being used. Think of it like this:
| Time | Ability | Regen time | Runes |
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| 00:00:00 | Icy Touch | 10s | BBFUU | | 00:10:00 | | 0s | BBFFUU | | 00:11:50 | Icy Touch | 10s | BBFUU | | 00:20:00 | | 2s | BBFFUU |
The second Frost Rune had a 8.5s reactivation time. <<snip>>
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I would word this section as follows:
Runes have a 10 second regen timer. However, if you do not use your regenerated rune as soon as it comes up, it will activate a timer (up to 2 seconds, is the current theory) which will be taken off of the normal 10 second timer.
| Time | Ability | Regen time | Runes |
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| 00:00:00 | Icy Touch | 10s | BBFUU | | 00:10:00 | | 0s | BBFFUU | | 00:11:50 | Icy Touch | 10s | BBFUU | | 00:20:00 | | -1.5s | BBFFUU |
Because you waited 1.5s after the rune was available to use the second frost rune, it's regen time was reduced to 8.5s.
I think the Regen time in the 4th row should either be "-1.5s" or "8.5s". Since you waited 1.5s to use the rune, the regen time is reduced by 1.5s, which is more accurate than putting "2s" in there. (The "2s" in that cell doesn't make any sense to me... you didn't wait 2s to use the rune.)
Does that make sense to others, or am I the only one that doesn't care for the wording here?
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11/07/08, 11:16 AM
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#27
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Bald Bull
Worgen Death Knight
The Maelstrom (EU)
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I was under the impression Haste would reduce the GCD on Icy Touch, Howling Blast and Death Coil.
I could be wrong, however.
Edit: To the above, yeah that does seem awfully odd and confusing. I'll get that changed.
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11/07/08, 11:17 AM
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#28
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The Ultimate in /facepalm Technology
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Originally Posted by tedv
It's kind of a silly point, but Agility also increases armor, which in turn increases attack power through Bladed Armor.
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I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that Bladed Armor is only affected by armor from gear/enchants/buffs (which can be modified by frost presence), hence why a talent like toughness does not affect it.
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Back, semi-casual, and proud of it.
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11/07/08, 11:18 AM
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#29
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Druid
Tichondrius
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Originally Posted by Ish
I am uncertain but reports say that Swordguard Embroidery from tailoring has a 45 sec ICD, with a 25% procrate and a 15 second duration that would put it at around 90 AP vs 22 agi or 22 haste.
I am mentioning it because you left tailoring out of the professions.
I hope someone has more accurate details regarding it since it is likely a good perk for the DK class considering our limited use of haste or agi
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That's correct. There was a brief discussion on the Professions thread where Warriors, Death Knights, and Paladins are probably better off as DPS Tailors than any other class. It's a tough call though, because Blacksmithing can customize the gems with Strength instead of raw attack power, which might make them slightly better than the Embroidery.
If Agility and Haste are just that bad for Death Knights (so 22 Agility/Haste + 64 attack power < 90 Attack Power) then Tailoring is arguably better than Inscription, Alchemy, or Enchanting for Death Knights. Leatherworking is still a special case - while balanced for DPS purposes, the Stamina enchant is so insanely overpowered that anyone who thinks they might be a tank should be a Leatherworker. Meanwhile, Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting occupy a Schrodinger's-box existence where their power is directly related to the availability of epic gems... Jewelcrafting is much more powerful without them and maybe one of the worst profession with them, while Blacksmithing goes from above average (because of customization) to the top profession with epic gems being available.
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11/07/08, 11:24 AM
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#30
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Bald Bull
Undead Death Knight
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by Zurm
I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that Bladed Armor is only affected by armor from gear/enchants/buffs (which can be modified by frost presence), hence why a talent like toughness does not affect it.
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Last time I played my DK, Toughness affected Bladed Armor. It wasn't always obvious at the first sight though, because of the internal cooldown refresh on bladed armor, so you'd fill toughness, see no increase, but if you waited 20secs or so it'd then refresh. However, rating agility over the gain from bladed armor is borderline useless. Agi>armor conversion is pretty damn low to begin with, and then armor > bladed armor is also low, so the gains per point would be absolutely negligible. Napkin math says: 2armor per agi, 5AP per 180armor, so ~0.05 AP per agi point.
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