joypunk

Thanks for the post, Illundai.

Sections 4.1 was very confusing for me, mostly because of the way it is worded. I'm pretty sure I understand the rune cooldown mechanic, but the way the section is written make me wonder if I really do.

I would word this section as follows:

Runes have a 10 second regen timer. However, if you do not use your regenerated rune as soon as it comes up, it will activate a timer (up to 2 seconds, is the current theory) which will be taken off of the normal 10 second timer.

Time	Ability	Regen time	Runes
00:00:00	Icy Touch	10s	BBFUU
00:10:00		0s	BBFFUU
00:11:50	Icy Touch	10s	BBFUU
00:20:00		-1.5s	BBFFUU

Because you waited 1.5s after the rune was available to use the second frost rune, it's regen time was reduced to 8.5s.

I think the Regen time in the 4th row should either be "-1.5s" or "8.5s". Since you waited 1.5s to use the rune, the regen time is reduced by 1.5s, which is more accurate than putting "2s" in there. (The "2s" in that cell doesn't make any sense to me... you didn't wait 2s to use the rune.)

Does that make sense to others, or am I the only one that doesn't care for the wording here?

 

Illundai

I was under the impression Haste would reduce the GCD on Icy Touch, Howling Blast and Death Coil.

I could be wrong, however.

Edit: To the above, yeah that does seem awfully odd and confusing. I'll get that changed.

 

• Zurm

I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that Bladed Armor is only affected by armor from gear/enchants/buffs (which can be modified by frost presence), hence why a talent like toughness does not affect it.

 

Copernicus

That's correct. There was a brief discussion on the Professions thread where Warriors, Death Knights, and Paladins are probably better off as DPS Tailors than any other class. It's a tough call though, because Blacksmithing can customize the gems with Strength instead of raw attack power, which might make them slightly better than the Embroidery.


If Agility and Haste are just that bad for Death Knights (so 22 Agility/Haste + 64 attack power < 90 Attack Power) then Tailoring is arguably better than Inscription, Alchemy, or Enchanting for Death Knights. Leatherworking is still a special case - while balanced for DPS purposes, the Stamina enchant is so insanely overpowered that anyone who thinks they might be a tank should be a Leatherworker. Meanwhile, Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting occupy a Schrodinger's-box existence where their power is directly related to the availability of epic gems... Jewelcrafting is much more powerful without them and maybe one of the worst profession with them, while Blacksmithing goes from above average (because of customization) to the top profession with epic gems being available.

 

Pyros

Last time I played my DK, Toughness affected Bladed Armor. It wasn't always obvious at the first sight though, because of the internal cooldown refresh on bladed armor, so you'd fill toughness, see no increase, but if you waited 20secs or so it'd then refresh. However, rating agility over the gain from bladed armor is borderline useless. Agi>armor conversion is pretty damn low to begin with, and then armor > bladed armor is also low, so the gains per point would be absolutely negligible. Napkin math says: 2armor per agi, 5AP per 180armor, so ~0.05 AP per agi point.

 

Nacht

Most of the coefficients in that post are accurate. The one that is inaccurate is Gargoyle. The 0.42 listed is the base coefficient of 0.4 combined with the Orc pet racial of 5% pet damage. Non class specific Gargoyle scale is 0.4. For Orcs it would be 0.42.

 

tedv

The tooltip just refers to armor. It should be easy to test though: Switch from Blood to Frost presence and see if your attack power increases.

 

• Lanky

Looks Good so Far, some comments on Specs listed,

Blood:
Currently, Bloodworms flat out suck. The 50/21 Spec has 2/3 points in it. I'd recommend a reassessment of that spec for Pure DPS figures, perhaps to something like this 50/21. Vampiric Blood in no way adds to directly to DPS, but it will save your life or help your healers far more than bloodworms on fights with lots of periodic damage or AoE attacks.

The 51/13/7 Spec is absolutely on the Money, and it should be noted that it will surpass the first spec in DPS output as gear scales, because it scales as a spec far better with gear.

Frost: I am really unsure about Killing Machine 5/5 in a Two Handed frost spec. it is a Critical strike, on auto-attack only talent. I'd almost say take Frost Aura, and Rune Tap +2/3 Imp Rune Tap, again for overall raid contributions and utility. Moreover, you can squeeze another point out of frost to fill out Rune Tap, and then glyph it to create an excellent instant-cast party heal. Frost Aura gives 80 resist to all schools at 80, and it stacks with Mark of the Wild. I wouldnt overlook those benefits, similar to those of Unholy Aura, for your raid.

Unholy: Is fine, It is by far the easiest to both model and spec into.

 

Leaflock

I can confirm this-- Toughness affects Bladed Armor AP increases after a delay which varies, as does changing to Frost Presence. And, as argued in the previous thread, the AP gain from Toughness is too low to consider it a straight dps talent, despite Bladed Armor.

Also, as Lanky said above, the blood dps specs should not have Bloodworms. As I recall, we discussed several reasons they would actually be detrimental in raids. In particular, they messed up group healing spell mechanics. I would also suggest that Rune Tap is probably more useful than Vampiric Blood as dps-- with the reduction in potions and healthstones, having your own personal HS on a cooldown is a significant increase in survivability. You can't dps when you're dead.

On Unholy: I only see one rotation listed, but didn't we discuss that PS - IT - BS - BS - SS - PS - IT - SS - SS with the IT glyph was roughly equivalent, because of the runic power generated and potentially a little more Desecration uptime?

 

Andread

Under Stats choices can AP be added - I assumed these are all compared to 1AP?

 

Torrential

1 Request: Add in the numbers required (rating and conversion etc.) for expertise as is done with hit.

1 Comment: The DW tri-spec shouldn't ever use Obliterate.

Given the spec's dependence on non-strike damage (Howling Blast) I think the spec should look like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Given Chill of the Grave, Dirge, and the IT Glyph, and Blood Presence (You could do it in Unholy, but the shorter GCD just means you'll be waiting more and it would make you actually have to watch HB's cooldown rather than just use it in the rotation where it's CD fits) you can do this:

IT -> PS -> HB -> DC -> BS -> BS -> DC -> Wait (Letting diseases tick full)

If Rime procs you change to

IT -> PS -> HB -> DC -> BS -> BS -> HB -> DC

After 2 rime procs you'll have an excess 40 RP available and you can fill a Wait with a DC on one rotation.

Doing this you'll never have to obliterate. Also, as gargoyle's CD is nearing you can forgo both DCs in a rotation (using your DoT timer on Frost Fever to tell you when to IT (and thus start the rotation) again. This will leave you with 80 RP to use for gargoyle, and if you wanted max you just start one DC earlier and store up that RP too.

Note: That one point in virulence could be put into Corpse explosion, or Outbreak to boost PS a bit, it's just a lonely filler point to get to the gargoyle tier.

 

methods

This is applied to the base value of armor for the mob. It also includes Sunders and FF. I could apply it to the the end of the formula instead if that makes more sense. Anyone have confirmation on which is accurate? You are right that this could lower the value.

This is what I used:
Damage reduction= (Armor*APR-debuffs)/(Armor*APR-debuffs)+15232.5)

Should it just be =(Armor/(Armor+15232.5))*APR?

I can change it in a few seconds if i can get a confirmation.

 

Illundai

Can do. Just for some confirmation one point of Expertise converts to 0.25% less chance to be dodged and parried, right? I can't seem to find clear information on if this is still the case at level 80.

That aside, I'll re-evaluate the Tri-Spec build/rotation a bit later on tonight. Got no experience whatsoever with the spec though, so people feel free to evaluate whether we should change that bit or not.
I changed the Blood Specs to have Rune Tap and Mark of Blood instead of Bloodworms. You can put those points in other places obviously, but I think RT & MoB are the better choices for raiding.

I also added ArP to the stats comparison table, while adding AP there as well (at least I assumed it was comparing to 1 AP), added Glyphs and Attack Power coefficients. Next up will be fleshing out the Professions section.

Also, still need some stuff to put under the Pet section, I wish I had some clue about those and I would do it myself, but alas.

 

Aeryn

It may be a good idea to mention the different auras in the paragraphs about benefits brought by a spec: they all provide very nice raid buffs, especially Unholy Aura for DPS. And somewhat surprisingly, the effects are all unique to DKs as opposed to other classes. Personally, I think they are essential in any spec (with the exception of DW tri-spec, obviously). Sure, you might lose out on 2% personal DPS with Blood or Frost Aura, but considering you increase the survivability of the entire raid, that seems like a small price to pay.

 

Torrential

I guess I should add the qualifier that I didn't play beta at all. What I came up with is based purely on a spreadsheet. In-game experience certainly trumps that if anybody sees a problem with what I proposed.

 

Rockers

Very nice summary, Illundai.

For some of the dps questions we have to wait a bit longer i guess, till we can test it on life (like gargoyle and drw).

About professions:

Herbalism: [Fire Leaf] - Seems to be completely useless for DKs in its current implementation because of Bladed Armor. Hope they change it to increases physical damage taken by 20% or something like that.

Alchemy: Reports are either +60 AP (+33%) or +90 AP (+50%) for [Flask of Endless Rage]. Big problem is, you have to be able to make it yourself to get the bonus. You can only discover 1 recipe per week (so it might take 20+ weeks to get it).

Tailoring: Depends on internal cooldown. 25% proc chance. 1 ppm would be 75 AP average.

 

Flamingcloud

1 Expertise Skill is 0.25%, 32.78998947 Rating is 1%, so 8.1974973675 rating is 1 skill. Fairly certain the original table is compared to a 1 dps increase and not 1 attack power(as 1 strength is not ever going to be 2.5+ ap)

 

Clandestine

1 Point of Expertise is still equivalent to .25% dodge and parry reduction.

Blood Aura is not a significant survivability increase under normal circumstances, although it is useful for some gimmicks.

 

Illundai

Thanks, and good catch. Not sure how I overlooked that.

Edit: Scrap that, it seems like it's compared to 1 AP after all. Putting it back up there :P.

 

methods

It is based on stat vs ap. Str gets a lot of bonuses and stacks up very nicely in a raid environment. You have to consider Kings, Talents in each tree, AND Fallen Crusader especially (15 seconds of 30% more STR every minute).

1 STR before everything is worth 2 AP. All you would need is around a 25% increase in STR after all buffs to reach this level.

There is a possibility of mistakes as usual so when I get some time I'll double check.

 

Flamingcloud

I forgot fallen crusader in my calculation, are we certain it is better than cinder glacier for unholy & frost and better than razorice for frost?

 

Davia

Another minor benefit is that strength scales the ghoul's damage whereas straight AP bonuses do not.

 

methods

I'm having a huge problem getting an accurate average for those two. But it seems to me that if either of them ever want to stand a chance against Fallen Crusader they either need a much higher PPM or they need to take off the charges and make them duration buffs. I Haven't tried to calculate Razorice yet because I don't have accurate data on how much the vulnerability is.

 

bionh

There is another Frost build that you might consider adding:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

14/50/7

Allows a rotation of:

IT - PS - BS - BS - OB - FS

OB - OB - OB - FS - FS

This scales considerably better with weapon damage than the 17/54 spec you mentioned. It is also greatly improved by 4pc. Tier 7, as the set bonus affects obliterate. With that bonus, you can fit a second FS into the first rotation.

 

Flamingcloud

The vulnerability is 5%, though we have no confirmation on it stacking with ebon or not(I assume yes).

While Cinder Glacier does not have a higher proc rate, it does however have the advantage that lets say you get a proc, then another proc 5 seconds later. In that scenario you get a maximum of 20 seconds(assuming no more procs in that window) of fallen crusader, where as you might still get 100% of the value of cinder glacier due to no internal cooldown. So if it procs 3ppm after skills you can't guarantee anything like 45 seconds of uptime vs 6 charges. I certainly agree modeling this could be difficult, and not even worth doing if like 20 seconds of crusader > permanent cinder glacier, but if it is close the modeling needs to be done.