Trignite

This is a bit off-topic as it is about DK Tanking rather than DPSing, but the General Entirety of this question applies to both so it is rather relevant. My inquiry is when a rune has been converted to a death rune, is the original rune considered delpeted for the duration?

Example Scenario:
You are tanking with a 10/56/05 spec (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft).
You currently have one BR in your rune setup and you exhaust it via using BS (Blood Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft), which is modified by Blood Of The North (Blood of the North - Spell - World of Warcraft), giving your BS a 100% chance to convert your BR into a DR when consumed by BS. When your single BR is a DR, do talents that require a certain type of runes to be exhausted, and more specifically Blade Barrier (Blade Barrier - Spell - World of Warcraft) consider them as such? Or does having a DR (since its also considered to be a BR) automatically render Blade Barrier currently inactive?

Again, I do apologize for the slight misplacement of this thread but I did not see a better place to ask. Clarification would modify my rotation by quite a lot. Thank you in advance.

 

Fugazor

Does resist work same way as dodge? So one GCD later you get rune again? Because if so then given that you cast IT every 15 sec or so and 3% resist you would loose one GCD every 8 min or so. Even if rune is lost that is once per 8 min again. Granted you loose 3% dps from DC too but how much that is in reality - 0,5% dps less?.

So question is: it works for IT and DC only? What about diseases? What about UB? If only those two I think I would skip it for Necrosis, Desecration, Bladed Armor etc.

Indeed not going 5/5 Desecration would be strange. What annoys me is that this talent conflicts with Epidemic and SS glyph - it should be reworked somehow.

With last two point being spent into Unholy Aura, Bladed Armor or Virulence.
I wonder how good BA is compared to Unholy talents. Especially with everyone crying about Plate itemization and swearing they will take leather/mail

 

Hidden

I don't agree with that spec being the best DW trispec, the only DW spec that looks competitive is 13/32/26, speccing Impurity is much better than speccing Annihilation just for Rime procs which you can also use on HB doing double as much damage if you're willing to have a flexible rotation.

The theoretical max DPS trispec should be 13/32/26.

 

Flamingcloud

Why is a rank of merciless combat better than a rank of dark conviction?

 

Hidden

You're probably right, Dark Conviction should be slightly better, I still thought about Merciless Combat as a must-have but apparently it isn't one since the nerfs to it anymore.

 

Flamingcloud

If you had frost strike merciless would probably be better than dark conviction, but since you are only to howling blast I can't really see it. Other than that it is probably a viable spec, only testing would confirm if it was overall better or worse though.

 

Hidden

Direct comparison:
-3% BS/Oblit Crit
-1% Crit
-2% HB/Oblit/IT damage
-Deathchill (probably not even worth mentioning, it's so marginal of an increase)
+1% Strength or Spell Hit
+ Gargoyle
+25% AP contribution to HB/IT/DC (15-20% more damage with those abilities)

I can't see those marginal benefits to BS/Oblit(which you'd only use in case Rime procs, that's every ~7 rotations once) even coming close to the greatly increased HB/IT/DC damage and Gargoyle.

 

Unlimiter

Must have been 1/2 asleep when i wrote the post i thought there was a glyph removing the rune cost, looks like that was a blood glyph.

Well i guess the decision comes down to 2% personal crit or 80% resist all for the raid. I'm unsure how snare effects count on bosses, so specing into 1 pt chillbains may or may not be useful for the bloodstrike glyph.

 

Arkasi

It's been discussed before. Snare effects do not work on bosses. I also don't believe chillbains counts as a snare but actually counts as a chill effect, so the bloodstrike glyph probably would not benefit from it

 

Hidden

For their talent at least the Mage ability "Slow" currently counts as a snare effect on bosses, so I assume it also counts as a snare effect for the Blood Strike glyph, has anyone tested that?

 

Kardiz

I am curious on race choices for horde. I know it has been mentioned that orc are the best choice for dps and tauren/blood elf are probably best for tanking.

My question is what would you choose if your going to be doing both for your guild as needed? Most likely dpsing more but tanking as the situation calls for it or lack of tanks on that night.

 

Pardeth

I would say that if you are going to primarily DPS and tank if needed then you should pick a race that is more DPS centered. No sense in gimping your DPS for that one or two times a week that you'll tank an encounter. Orc will tank fine, and Tauren/BE will DPS fine, it's just what you want to maximise more.

 

s[orc]ery

Neither talent is better than Master of Ghouls, which adds 3 minutes of extra ghoul uptime out of 5 and frees up global cooldowns.

 

Hidden

Orc is probably way better at tanking than the other way round. You'll reach the expertise cap easier if you're using an axe and Bloodfury gives you a very nice threat boost (the heal debuff has been removed, hasn't it?).

Only if the Ghoul stays alive, but you're probably right in most cases. I didn't think about the possibility of speccing into Master of Ghouls when you're that deep into Unholy already.

 

Daedalix

Yes, they did, apparently. I wish I was an Orc.

 

Clemz

I'd like to touch back on this for a moment as you seem to have combined Dancing Rune Weapon and Gargoyle.

Gargoyle costs 10 Runic Power to summon for 10 seconds, and then it drains 8 Runic Power per second, up to a maximum of 1 minute. To sustain the entire minute you'd need to generate 400(8*50) Runic Power over the duration. Since you will wait until 100 Runic Power to summon, you'll have 90 left over, reducing what you need down to 310.

Assuming you have the Icy Touch Glyph, you'll be generating 70 Runic Power per half rotation, 140 for a full 20 second rotation, or 420 for the full 60 seconds. However; the initial 10 seconds of Gargoyle do not drain your Runic Power. The general consensus is you should limit yourself to only Sudden Doom Death Coils over Gargoyle's duration, but you should be able to fit in 2 non-Sudden Doom Death Coils during it.

The initial post says Dancing Rune weapon drains Runic Power like Gargoyle, this also isn't true. Dancing Rune Weapon is a one-time Runic Power dump, 50 for the cast, and then whatever extra is converted into additonal time, at a rate of 1 second for every 5 Runic Power. So, 100 Runic Power will keep it alive for the maximum 20 seconds(initial post states 30).

Now, knowing that, it makes the initial assumption that Gargoyle is superior to Dancing Rune Weapon a little less clear. For Dancing Rune Weapon to be superior it would need to do more damage in 20 seconds, with your normal Runic Power dump rotation, than Gargoyle does over the full minute. Since you should be able to get in 2 Death Coils during Gargoyle, it should still pull ahead, as you'd only be able to get in 2 Death Coils in Dancing Rune Weapon's 20 seconds as well.

I'd also like to nitpick the suggested 50/0/21 Blood spec. Since you're skipping Annihilation going this route, Epidemic is essentially useless considering you're Obliterating off your diseases anyway. I'd suggest moving the 2 from Epidemic to fill Necrosis completely. I'd also suggest dropping Rune Tap and Blood Aura to fill Blood Worms, provided they don't run off and cause trouble during pulls or bosses. Something like this: 50/0/21.

 

• vank

The tooltip for DRW says 10 seconds, plus 1 second per 5 additional runic power. I think that equals 30 seconds if you use it at 100 RP.

Also, the Blood Worms discussion has been hashed out, and it's observed that they do exactly what you say, i.e. run off and attack arbitrary mobs.

 

Clemz

It does, but you're discounting the 50 Runic Power cost to summon. Every 5 addtional Runic Power after the 50 is converted into 1 second uptime, 50/5=10, so that extra 50 Runic Power is an extra 10 seconds.

I'll concede Bloodworms, if they're running off and causing trouble then the Rune Tap/Blood Aura choices would make more sense.

 

Leaflock

Not entirely, since you usually only use one Obliterate. Epidemic enables more flexibility in your rotations, particularly in using runic power/sudden doom procs in Blood presence. If the first half of your rotation is PS - IT - HS - HS - DC - OB, I've sometimes come across a situation where doing PS - IT - HS - HS - HS - HS and filling in all the Death Coils, your blood runes might repop before you use all your death runes. Epidemic enables you to avoid restarting your rotation with PS - IT and wasting your other runes. You can potentially do PS - IT - HS - HS - HS - HS - HS - HS and even throw in an Oblit at the end of the diseases' duration for good measure before starting over. As long as you have a DC in every other available GCD slot and your diseases don't drop, you're good to keep going.

 

Clemz

Sounds reasonable enough, I'm not sure I came across that scenario during Beta, or if I did I simply didn't pay attention to it, and that would probably outweigh the 4% on Necrosis. I personally wasn't a fan of Epidemic in the build, but I can certainly see why others would take it after what you stated.

I'm trying to understand something here, going off the tooltip alone, Dancing Rune Weapon costs 50 Runic Power to summon. It then goes on to state that it unleashes all Runic Power, and any additional Runic Power is converted into time at a rate of 1 second for every 5 Runic Power. For those who are saying 30 seconds, is the tooltip bugged and the spell itself is counting the entire 100 as additonal, even after the 50 cost?

Edit: Mixed up numbers.

 

Illundai

Nah, you're right, it should be 20 seconds. I'll get it fixed.

 

Lazareth

I could have sworn there was a patch that increased Gargoyle's cost to summon up to 50 RP, not 10. How much does this change things if it's accurate?

As per Patch 3.0.3 deployed on live servers

Holy crap.

 

Clemz

It certainly brings them a lot more in line now, I completely missed that change. Summoniing with 100 Runic Power, you'd need to generate 360 over the duration versus the 310 from 10 Runic Power cost version, drop the projected 2 Death coils to 1, or go back to limiting yourself to only Sudden Doom Death Coils. I still think it'll outperform Dancing Rune Weapon, but it should be a lot closer.

 

Gavain

mulitple targets vs. single target

I understand that we mainly talk about rotations, value of talents etc. in the light of fighting a single target, because it makes things easier. I value this KISS priority, but especially for unholy there should be a few more words about AoE-damage and the skills and talents which support them. You don´t even show a rotation for multiple targets.
Is it fair to judge Outbreak based on a single target rotation??

I played a DK from 55 to 80 and did a lot of dungeons and heroics, so I understand that things are situational and you have to adapt. But for someone reading your excellent summary who never played a DK we may add some talk about these things.

Most times we will fight multiple mobs inside a dungeon/heroic/raid. Especially for unholy this is a big change to our basic rotation. And what about the value of BB and DnD ? Are these "tank-only" talents? How many targets does it need to make the use of BB and DnD worthwhile in terms of dps...or never? For someone new to this topic it might be interesting to include some math to this points.

I tried a lot of things when running a dungeon/heroic...focused on SS, then on BB or DnD...and was surprised a few times myself how much damage DnD for example came up with. I ended up with something like this for the initial rotation:
5 targets or more = PS-IT-Pestilence(PE)-DnD-UB
3-4 targets = PS-IT-PE-BB-SS-UB

I know that this will give you less Death Runes in the second rotation. I used PE in my first rotation any time on multiple mobs...when the Blood Rune came up again I used it for BB (3+ targets) or BS (1-2 targets). I always had 3/3 Outbreak.

Every 5 minutes you can use ERW and throw two additional BB into the mobs (if your tank is up to it) and move into your SS-focused rotation...thats an awful lot of aoe and makes Outbreak for example a much desired talent in my eyes. And ERW should be used for this every time it´s available...under 4.1.2 it sounds like you should hold back...5 min. is a rather short cd, I would use it as often as possible, otherwise it is just wasted.

I apologize that I can´t provide any hard numbers here, but maybe someone can take a look into this issue and calculate how many targets it will need that the use of BB and DnD would overcome BS.

To sum things up, this are the points I thought about:
- value of the talent Outbreak ? (right now it´s value is calculated when fighting single targets)
- under "5 How to dps..." With a high percentage of fights against multiple targets, there should be some words about that
- usage of BB and DnD for tanks only? How many targets you need to fight to make their usage wothwhile...or never?

Edit: My point is: To play an unholy DK is all about flexibility, adapting etc. You usually start with 3+ mobs and very different priorites then the ones you have at the end of the same fight when only 1 target is left. There is nothing like "a" rotation for an unholy DK...you have an initial rotation based on a single or mutliple target situation. This initial rotation defines our next priorities. And usually starting with multiple mobs gives a very different value to some of our talents and skills as they are shown in the compendium right now. So maybe it is worth to give the Unholy-section a stronger focus about aoe-damage and some summary about how your playstyle differs in these situations.

I can resist anything, but temptation (O.Wilde)

 

Gavain

And one question I have myself and it may be worth added into the compendium for Unholy DK.

2-Handed Weapon Specialization (2HWS)

Most people seem to agree that 17/0/54 is the way to go. But is 2HWS affecting the weapon damage used for SS and BS? Or is it only affecting your auto-attacks (20% of your damage). If it´s the latter, I would rather skip it and use the points somewhere in the Unholy-tree.

I´m sure this question will come up for a new DK, so maybe we should include it somewhere under 8.3.2

We also had the blood talents added into the "8.3.5 DPS breakdown per talent point" in the original thread. These should be added in the compendium too I think.

I can resist anything, but temptation (O.Wilde)